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CBPChris
post Jul 8 2010, 08:07 PM
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First,

I would like to introduce myself. I am Chris from cheapbatterypacks. I am working on finding out weather or not we have paid to advertise, and any other subscriptions I may need to be able to sell stuff. But I just wanted to introduce myself, and offer a little bit of info. I hope this is helpful for some of you. I am big into competitive RC Crawling, and have posted many stickies on these forums in way of battery tips/articles



Typed this up in Word today for you guys/gals:


In my light endeavors into airsoft, I have noticed, that there are quite a bit of you, that arenít fully informed on batteries. Airsoft guns make up that largest portion of our business. So I am here to help you a little bit. Below is a little info that you may find helpful. I can answer any further questions you may have, but this should cover quite a bit. You may know some or all of these facts, but this is to the new guy, or the mis-informed guy.


Voltage:
Pretty simple. The more voltage(ie 7.4v pack) the higher rate of fire

Capacity:
The capacity(ie Mah) will give you more runtime. This is like your fuel tank. The more Mah, the longer you can shoot people

Neither of these will effect your accuracy or FPS.

Battery Chemistries:
There are a few Chemistries that the electric hobbyist uses. The most common is Ni-Mh, or Nickel Metal Hydride. Li-Po, or Lithium Polymer is big in RC applications, and is beginning to take off in the airsoft community also. A lot of stock guns come with low quality Ni-Mh, or Ni-Cad batteries. Ni-Cadís, or Nickel Metal Cadmium batteries are an older technology, and have become inferior to Ni-Mh, and Li-Po packs. There are also a lot of various forms of the Li-ion chemistry.

For airsoft, Ni-Mh is the best bet. Very powerful if you buy the right cells, and affordable. I know that there is a larger demand for Li-Po packs also, but your only real gain besides rate of fire, is some weight loss. Li-poís are much more needy, and have less configuration options. Also, in most cases, you donít get as much capacity for certain packs. Li-po is a great performing chemistry, but would not be my first choice. They require more to be happy. Such as some typr of low voltage detection, to keep the cells from dropping below 3v each. And a special charger/balancer.

Ni-Mh batteries are 1.2 v per cell
Ni-Cad batteries are 1.2v per cell
Li-Po batteries are 3.7v per cell
Li-Ion type cells vary from 3.3-3.7v, depending on the specific chemistry.

Battery Quality/Performance:
One thing I fight with a lot, is informing people that not all batteries, are living up to what their label says. There are a lot of batteries that come out of really cheap Chinese factories, and are of a very low quality. Generally, these are stock batteries that the gun comes with, or are no-named looking cells. This is bad for 2 reasons. 1: Low quality cells will have a short cycle life. Which means you will get a lot less charges from them. 2: they do not deliver enough power. And even though airsoft guns arenít a high current drawing applications, the cells cant be bottom of the barrel either.

Now when it comes to good cells, there are 2 different types basically. 1 being a low drain cell, and the other being a high drain cell. The difference, is that the low drain cell is meant for low current applications such as cordless phones, RC transmitter packs, and so on. While being able to offer a good capacity, and offer plenty of cycles before they need to be replaced. High drain cells can handle way more current, and take a much larger beating. These are most used in high performance RC applications. Airsoft, although, not a really high current application, rides between low drain cell, and high drain cell needs. So naturally, you guys need high drain cells.

Right now there are plenty of decent brands on the market, but the only 3 I recommend at the moment, that have proven in my 8 years of experience, to be good, are anything from GP, IB, or Elite. Elite seems to be the most wanted cell in the airsoft world.

Plugs:
All of these guns come with the crappy little white plastic plugs. Weather it be the ďLargeĒ or ďSmallĒ type, both arenít worth a damn. There is only 1 easy option. Deans Ultra. There are a few other good plugs out there, but Deans is the most widely used, and has proven itís quality for years.

Why, might you ask, does it matter what plug to use. Well, the reason is, that the pins inside the stock plugs, are made from a really thin tin, that over a very short period of time, begin to wear out, and cause a faulty connection. This will cause the gun to not fire at times, and the battery to false peak on a charger. Plus, the plugs are crimped, which isnít necessarily a bad thing, but Deans are a solder style, which is much better.

When you go to a better connecting plug, you reduce your resistance dramatically, and free up some power that you didnít have before. I have showed people many times, how my gun with the same batteries, at the same voltage, has more power just from having a Deans plug. And they cant believe that a little plug will restrict so much power.

Chargers/Charging:
First and fore-most, wall wart, or trickle chargers are worthless. I cant tell you how many times I have a guy spend a lot of money on some batteries, just to skimp on the charger. You cant have a good battery, without a good charger. Good doesnít mean you have to spend a bunch of money, but you wont get a good one for 20 bucks. Generally, most of the good chargers cost around 50 bucks, and higher. Youíre going to want something that has a variable charge rate(ampís) and is a peak detection charger. Those are the minimum. If youíre getting a Li-Po pack, then you want something with a variable current setting, in at least .5 amp increments, and has a balancer built in. Most of todayís chargers do all of this, in 1 package. There are so many chargers out on the market today, you cant hardly go wrong as long as they do what I mentioned above.

You want to set your charger to the appropriate cell amount, chemistry, and charge current. Charging at 1C and below is the safest bet for any pack.Example: 1C of a 1500 mah pack is 1.5 amps on a charge. So for a 1500mah pack, anything at or under 1.5 amps is safe. Another easy way to find the C, is to take the first 2 digits of the Mah( if it is a 1500 mah, take the 15) and put your point between them. That will be 1C.

Some chargers may have a Mv setting. This is your delta peak. You want that to be between 3-5mv per cell. This is for Nimh packs. But the majority of the newer chargers out there, do this for you.

If youíre charging a Li-Po pack, and the charger has a balancer, or you have an external one, you use that every time you charge. In fact, I tell ALL my customers to ALWAYS use a balancer. We donít warranty packs that we charged without one. It is un-safe to charge without one. You charge Li-pos at 1C also. Charge all Li-Poís, away from anything flammable, in the event they catch fire, so they donít catch anything else on fire.

I hope this is helpful. Feel free to ask me any questions you may haveÖ


This post has been edited by CBPChris: Jul 8 2010, 08:09 PM
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hydralover
post Jul 8 2010, 08:15 PM
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Hi Chris, and welcome to AirsoftForum. I've been a fan of your business for years; every battery I've purchased from you guys has been great, with fantastic turn-around time, precisely made products, and quick shipping. To top it all off, you guys have the lowest prices around, advertising truly cheap battery packs. Thanks for coming around and thinking about sponsoring ASF.

In order to advertise, you need to purchase a monthly subscription, which is $59.95/mo.

I also stickied this topic, as it is good information in a simple, clean layout. Good reading for interested readers searching for information.

This post has been edited by hydralover: Jul 8 2010, 08:16 PM


--------------------
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CBPChris
post Jul 9 2010, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (hydralover @ Jul 8 2010, 08:15 PM) *
Hi Chris, and welcome to AirsoftForum. I've been a fan of your business for years; every battery I've purchased from you guys has been great, with fantastic turn-around time, precisely made products, and quick shipping. To top it all off, you guys have the lowest prices around, advertising truly cheap battery packs. Thanks for coming around and thinking about sponsoring ASF.

In order to advertise, you need to purchase a monthly subscription, which is $59.95/mo.

I also stickied this topic, as it is good information in a simple, clean layout. Good reading for interested readers searching for information.


Ok, Will I be able to have a link to our site in my sig?
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sora4502
post Oct 1 2010, 10:11 PM
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cheap batteries yes but 7$ for shipping for a 9.6v small double nunchuk type battery? wtf man I could buy something that weighs 4 pounds and have the shipping be 7$


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[Dodge] 3:18 pm: Car JFK was shot in? Let me call a guy I know who is an expert on cars JFK was shot in.


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airsoftuun
post Mar 14 2011, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (CBPChris @ Jul 8 2010, 09:07 PM) *
First,

I would like to introduce myself. I am Chris from cheapbatterypacks. I am working on finding out weather or not we have paid to advertise, and any other subscriptions I may need to be able to sell stuff. But I just wanted to introduce myself, and offer a little bit of info. I hope this is helpful for some of you. I am big into competitive RC Crawling, and have posted many stickies on these forums in way of battery tips/articles



Typed this up in Word today for you guys/gals:


In my light endeavors into airsoft, I have noticed, that there are quite a bit of you, that arenít fully informed on batteries. Airsoft guns make up that largest portion of our business. So I am here to help you a little bit. Below is a little info that you may find helpful. I can answer any further questions you may have, but this should cover quite a bit. You may know some or all of these facts, but this is to the new guy, or the mis-informed guy.


Voltage:
Pretty simple. The more voltage(ie 7.4v pack) the higher rate of fire

Capacity:
The capacity(ie Mah) will give you more runtime. This is like your fuel tank. The more Mah, the longer you can shoot people

Neither of these will effect your accuracy or FPS.

Battery Chemistries:
There are a few Chemistries that the electric hobbyist uses. The most common is Ni-Mh, or Nickel Metal Hydride. Li-Po, or Lithium Polymer is big in RC applications, and is beginning to take off in the airsoft community also. A lot of stock guns come with low quality Ni-Mh, or Ni-Cad batteries. Ni-Cadís, or Nickel Metal Cadmium batteries are an older technology, and have become inferior to Ni-Mh, and Li-Po packs. There are also a lot of various forms of the Li-ion chemistry.

For airsoft, Ni-Mh is the best bet. Very powerful if you buy the right cells, and affordable. I know that there is a larger demand for Li-Po packs also, but your only real gain besides rate of fire, is some weight loss. Li-poís are much more needy, and have less configuration options. Also, in most cases, you donít get as much capacity for certain packs. Li-po is a great performing chemistry, but would not be my first choice. They require more to be happy. Such as some typr of low voltage detection, to keep the cells from dropping below 3v each. And a special charger/balancer.

Ni-Mh batteries are 1.2 v per cell
Ni-Cad batteries are 1.2v per cell
Li-Po batteries are 3.7v per cell
Li-Ion type cells vary from 3.3-3.7v, depending on the specific chemistry.

Battery Quality/Performance:
One thing I fight with a lot, is informing people that not all batteries, are living up to what their label says. There are a lot of batteries that come out of really cheap Chinese factories, and are of a very low quality. Generally, these are stock batteries that the gun comes with, or are no-named looking cells. This is bad for 2 reasons. 1: Low quality cells will have a short cycle life. Which means you will get a lot less charges from them. 2: they do not deliver enough power. And even though airsoft guns arenít a high current drawing applications, the cells cant be bottom of the barrel either.

Now when it comes to good cells, there are 2 different types basically. 1 being a low drain cell, and the other being a high drain cell. The difference, is that the low drain cell is meant for low current applications such as cordless phones, RC transmitter packs, and so on. While being able to offer a good capacity, and offer plenty of cycles before they need to be replaced. High drain cells can handle way more current, and take a much larger beating. These are most used in high performance RC applications. Airsoft, although, not a really high current application, rides between low drain cell, and high drain cell needs. So naturally, you guys need high drain cells.

Right now there are plenty of decent brands on the market, but the only 3 I recommend at the moment, that have proven in my 8 years of experience, to be good, are anything from GP, IB, or Elite. Elite seems to be the most wanted cell in the airsoft world.

Plugs:
All of these guns come with the crappy little white plastic plugs. Weather it be the ďLargeĒ or ďSmallĒ type, both arenít worth a damn. There is only 1 easy option. Deans Ultra. There are a few other good plugs out there, but Deans is the most widely used, and has proven itís quality for years.

Why, might you ask, does it matter what plug to use. Well, the reason is, that the pins inside the stock plugs, are made from a really thin tin, that over a very short period of time, begin to wear out, and cause a faulty connection. This will cause the gun to not fire at times, and the battery to false peak on a charger. Plus, the plugs are crimped, which isnít necessarily a bad thing, but Deans are a solder style, which is much better.

When you go to a better connecting plug, you reduce your resistance dramatically, and free up some power that you didnít have before. I have showed people many times, how my gun with the same batteries, at the same voltage, has more power just from having a Deans plug. And they cant believe that a little plug will restrict so much power.

Chargers/Charging:
First and fore-most, wall wart, or trickle chargers are worthless. I cant tell you how many times I have a guy spend a lot of money on some batteries, just to skimp on the charger. You cant have a good battery, without a good charger. Good doesnít mean you have to spend a bunch of money, but you wont get a good one for 20 bucks. Generally, most of the good chargers cost around 50 bucks, and higher. Youíre going to want something that has a variable charge rate(ampís) and is a peak detection charger. Those are the minimum. If youíre getting a Li-Po pack, then you want something with a variable current setting, in at least .5 amp increments, and has a balancer built in. Most of todayís chargers do all of this, in 1 package. There are so many chargers out on the market today, you cant hardly go wrong as long as they do what I mentioned above.

You want to set your charger to the appropriate cell amount, chemistry, and charge current. Charging at 1C and below is the safest bet for any pack.Example: 1C of a 1500 mah pack is 1.5 amps on a charge. So for a 1500mah pack, anything at or under 1.5 amps is safe. Another easy way to find the C, is to take the first 2 digits of the Mah( if it is a 1500 mah, take the 15) and put your point between them. That will be 1C.

Some chargers may have a Mv setting. This is your delta peak. You want that to be between 3-5mv per cell. This is for Nimh packs. But the majority of the newer chargers out there, do this for you.

If youíre charging a Li-Po pack, and the charger has a balancer, or you have an external one, you use that every time you charge. In fact, I tell ALL my customers to ALWAYS use a balancer. We donít warranty packs that we charged without one. It is un-safe to charge without one. You charge Li-pos at 1C also. Charge all Li-Poís, away from anything flammable, in the event they catch fire, so they donít catch anything else on fire.

I hope this is helpful. Feel free to ask me any questions you may haveÖ

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sitzkrieg
post Mar 21 2011, 09:15 AM
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Perhaps you could help me with something, when purchasing a gun, how do I know whether the plug is "large" or "small/mini" and if I want a large battery and the plug on the rifle is small, is there some adapter I have to buy? and where can I find it?

Sincerely,
Sitzkrieg, battery newbie


--------------------
Bigger, Faster, Stronger.
SMW Football, SMW NJROTC Raider team and PT.
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koldblood5
post Apr 14 2011, 03:52 PM
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um I have a 1/4 inch plus whats it called?
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eme wayyes
post Aug 22 2011, 08:48 AM
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wow... nice product <a href="http://sportssupply.com"><b>Sport Supplies</b></a> I like this one... thank you so much...........what is the best product that we can use? ;D
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softbb
post Dec 8 2011, 05:01 AM
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QUOTE (CBPChris @ Jul 8 2010, 08:07 PM) *
First,

I would like to introduce myself. I am Chris from cheapbatterypacks. I am working on finding out weather or not we have paid to advertise, and any other subscriptions I may need to be able to sell stuff. But I just wanted to introduce myself, and offer a little bit of info. I hope this is helpful for some of you. I am big into competitive RC Crawling, and have posted many stickies on these forums in way of battery tips/articles



Typed this up in Word today for you guys/gals:


In my light endeavors into airsoft, I have noticed, that there are quite a bit of you, that arenít fully informed on batteries. Airsoft guns make up that largest portion of our business. So I am here to help you a little bit. Below is a little info that you may find helpful. I can answer any further questions you may have, but this should cover quite a bit. You may know some or all of these facts, but this is to the new guy, or the mis-informed guy.


Voltage:
Pretty simple. The more voltage(ie 7.4v pack) the higher rate of fire

Capacity:
The capacity(ie Mah) will give you more runtime. This is like your fuel tank. The more Mah, the longer you can shoot people

Neither of these will effect your accuracy or FPS.

Battery Chemistries:
There are a few Chemistries that the electric hobbyist uses. The most common is Ni-Mh, or Nickel Metal Hydride. Li-Po, or Lithium Polymer is big in RC applications, and is beginning to take off in the airsoft community also. A lot of stock guns come with low quality Ni-Mh, or Ni-Cad batteries. Ni-Cadís, or Nickel Metal Cadmium batteries are an older technology, and have become inferior to Ni-Mh, and Li-Po packs. There are also a lot of various forms of the Li-ion chemistry.

For airsoft, Ni-Mh is the best bet. Very powerful if you buy the right cells, and affordable. I know that there is a larger demand for Li-Po packs also, but your only real gain besides rate of fire, is some weight loss. Li-poís are much more needy, and have less configuration options. Also, in most cases, you donít get as much capacity for certain packs. Li-po is a great performing chemistry, but would not be my first choice. They require more to be happy. Such as some typr of low voltage detection, to keep the cells from dropping below 3v each. And a special charger/balancer.

Ni-Mh batteries are 1.2 v per cell
Ni-Cad batteries are 1.2v per cell
Li-Po batteries are 3.7v per cell
Li-Ion type cells vary from 3.3-3.7v, depending on the specific chemistry.

Battery Quality/Performance:
One thing I fight with a lot, is informing people that not all batteries, are living up to what their label says. There are a lot of batteries that come out of really cheap Chinese factories, and are of a very low quality. Generally, these are stock batteries that the gun comes with, or are no-named looking cells. This is bad for 2 reasons. 1: Low quality cells will have a short cycle life. Which means you will get a lot less charges from them. 2: they do not deliver enough power. And even though airsoft guns arenít a high current drawing applications, the cells cant be bottom of the barrel either.

Now when it comes to good cells, there are 2 different types basically. 1 being a low drain cell, and the other being a high drain cell. The difference, is that the low drain cell is meant for low current applications such as cordless phones, RC transmitter packs, and so on. While being able to offer a good capacity, and offer plenty of cycles before they need to be replaced. High drain cells can handle way more current, and take a much larger beating. These are most used in high performance RC applications. Airsoft, although, not a really high current application, rides between low drain cell, and high drain cell needs. So naturally, you guys need high drain cells.

Right now there are plenty of decent brands on the market, but the only 3 I recommend at the moment, that have proven in my 8 years of experience, to be good, are anything from GP, IB, or Elite. Elite seems to be the most wanted cell in the airsoft world.

Plugs:
All of these guns come with the crappy little white plastic plugs. Weather it be the ďLargeĒ or ďSmallĒ type, both arenít worth a damn. There is only 1 easy option. Deans Ultra. There are a few other good plugs out there, but Deans is the most widely used, and has proven itís quality for years.

Why, might you ask, does it matter what plug to use. Well, the reason is, that the pins inside the stock plugs, are made from a really thin tin, that over a very short period of time, begin to wear out, and cause a faulty connection. This will cause the gun to not fire at times, and the battery to false peak on a charger. Plus, the plugs are crimped, which isnít necessarily a bad thing, but Deans are a solder style, which is much better.

When you go to a better connecting plug, you reduce your resistance dramatically, and free up some power that you didnít have before. I have showed people many times, how my gun with the same batteries, at the same voltage, has more power just from having a Deans plug. And they cant believe that a little plug will restrict so much power.

Chargers/Charging:
First and fore-most, wall wart, or trickle chargers are worthless. I cant tell you how many times I have a guy spend a lot of money on some batteries, just to skimp on the charger. You cant have a good battery, without a good charger. Good doesnít mean you have to spend a bunch of money, but you wont get a good one for 20 bucks. Generally, most of the good chargers cost around 50 bucks, and higher. Youíre going to want something that has a variable charge rate(ampís) and is a peak detection charger. Those are the minimum. If youíre getting a Li-Po pack, then you want something with a variable current setting, in at least .5 amp increments, and has a balancer built in. Most of todayís chargers do all of this, in 1 package. There are so many chargers out on the market today, you cant hardly go wrong as long as they do what I mentioned above.

You want to set your charger to the appropriate cell amount, chemistry, and charge current. Charging at 1C and below is the safest bet for any pack.Example: 1C of a 1500 mah pack is 1.5 amps on a charge. So for a 1500mah pack, anything at or under 1.5 amps is safe. Another easy way to find the C, is to take the first 2 digits of the Mah( if it is a 1500 mah, take the 15) and put your point between them. That will be 1C.

Some chargers may have a Mv setting. This is your delta peak. You want that to be between 3-5mv per cell. This is for Nimh packs. But the majority of the newer chargers out there, do this for you.

If youíre charging a Li-Po pack, and the charger has a balancer, or you have an external one, you use that every time you charge. In fact, I tell ALL my customers to ALWAYS use a balancer. We donít warranty packs that we charged without one. It is un-safe to charge without one. You charge Li-pos at 1C also. Charge all Li-Poís, away from anything flammable, in the event they catch fire, so they donít catch anything else on fire.

I hope this is helpful. Feel free to ask me any questions you may haveÖ


Nice work,thank you so much.


--------------------
Airsoft Battery is very important for airsoft guns!lifepo4 battery
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vasilyzaitsev
post Dec 26 2011, 08:43 PM
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would this charger work for a lipo battery? I don't know much about balancers and stuff like that.
http://www.airsoftmegastore.com/Tenergy_Un...art-charger.htm


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G&G Combat Machine (Custom)
TM M93r AEP
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CBPChris
post Feb 1 2012, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (vasilyzaitsev @ Dec 26 2011, 08:43 PM) *
would this charger work for a lipo battery? I don't know much about balancers and stuff like that.
http://www.airsoftmegastore.com/Tenergy_Un...art-charger.htm



No, that is a Nimh/Nicad only. Using that charger will cause a fire
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Reaper8492
post Jun 17 2012, 03:37 AM
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Hey Chris. Thanks for all the info on batteries. This was really helpful.

Is there a way to determine the plug type my weapon has? Do you have a chart or set of dimensions to tell?

Thanks in advance.
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JonnyDeath
post Dec 14 2012, 04:13 PM
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It looks like this is where I should have posted.
This is basically a long post that in short, is a way to get really high end lithium 8.4vdc power on a hobos budget.
If it's beyond your scope of technical skills, let me know and I will post an instructional because it's not all that complicated when it comes down to it.
Admittedly I am still waiting on the necessary parts to arrive but I am very experienced in electronics. I know what will work and what MIGHT work.
This will work.

Let me make this clear, I AM NOT CURRENTLY A PLAYER.
So while performance is important, it's not crucial.
For now my gun is just a very high end toy I can use for target practice in the backyard rather than blow the money on firearm ammo.
Of course, I will surely get into this sport after having gotten such a good look at it!

Anyway for anyone willing to run on 8.4 vdc lithium ion you might be interested in this.
I'm not a cheapskate but I am cheap when it comes to certain goods. As a college student earning my electronic engineering degree with many years of experience all across the design and construction board in not just electronics, I refuse to pay $14+ for a junk no name battery let alone $20+ for a so called "name brand" battery because lets face it, if it's not coming out of a brand that's been around for 30+ years, it's just parts bought from a manufacturer that HAS been around 30+ years and they are having it built to their request and company header stamped on it.

Now with that out of the way if you weren't offended, here's what I'm proposing.
I have over a dozen 4.2 vdc lithium ion cells all a minimum of 4000 mah.
Wired in series, that's 8.4 4000 mah and a very small form factor.
Now take this into consideration.
When a battery measures 9.6 volts, you are NOT getting 9.6 volts out of it.
Due to the internal resistance of all batteries, they produce a voltage drop in the circuit just as all other devices do from resistors, to diodes to capacitors.
So you can knock off probably up to 1 vdc or slightly more when you actually pull the trigger on your gun.

With a lithium ion, internal resistance is much lower.
So if you're at 8.4 vdc you can expect to get about 8 vdc supplied to the circuit after the battery's internal resistance drops the supply vdc under load.

18650's are generally around 3.7 vdc to 4.2 vdc but I've yet to use one that didn't charge to at least 4.2 and often they hit 4.4 and don't drop so low as to 3.7 until they're 2/3 discharged.
For the cost of a smart charger with a set of these batteries, a battery box and soldering on the appropriate molex to connect it to your gun, you're talking maybe 20 to 25 dollars tops off Ebay. The battery box allows you to just swap out the cells. These are the same cells in your laptop battery packs. I'm really thrifty on Ebay so I've landed sets of 6 @ 4800mah for 16 bucks. Smart chargers with sets of 4 for $8 all including shipping.

Granted you want your 9.6 and higher for the field but if you want to fire off thousands of rounds on a single set of batteries for target practice, this rig will do the trick, spare your primary batteries and just save you a loooooot of money. As many of you know, even when matching voltages lithium ions outperform alkaline, ni-mh which is a lesson in particle physics I will spare you because even I am just fresh to understanding some of this knowledge.

But it's just a thought for the rest of you!
I'd rather fire off 8 rps for several hours in the backyrad on the same battery than 12 rps and have to swap batteries that will of course have a shortened lifespan. Don't get me wrong, ni-mh is great and can last for years but, we all know sometimes they hold a charge sitting around for weeks, sometimes the same battery goes dead in 4 days from sitting even though it would have lasted a month had it been plugged into a device.

This post has been edited by JonnyDeath: Dec 14 2012, 04:16 PM
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post Feb 1 2013, 04:21 AM
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CPBChris...while I like your site, and use your products, your information to other users is misleading where it's not out and out incorrect.
Your statements flat out contradict Ohm's Law, which is the single most important principal behind any electrical question, in many respects.

V=IR is one "spoke" on this wheel, which means voltage is equal to current (milliamperes) times resistance.

to use the popular water analogy:
If your gun came stock with an 8.4 V /1000 mAh battery, it works something like this;

You have 8.4 meters of water (8.4 volts) which contains enough water to release 1 liter in an hour, before your pot of water is empty, you have 1 liter-hour of water available. If you have a wheel (resistance) that requires 0.1 liters of water for each revolution, then, if the water flows continuously for that hour (current), the wheel will turn 10 times, in that hour.
If you start and stop that wheel, it will still only turn 10 times.
If you fill that 8.4 meter container of water with enough water to not go dry until it has passed 2 liters of water, attach a spigot that restricts that flow to 1 liter per hour, and let it run, it will turn the wheel 20 times (over two hours, if allowed to run continuously). But since the "spigot" *doesn't* completely restrict the amount of water that can get to the wheel, to any great extent, what happens is the wheel turns faster...but because the wheel is heavy, has friction, and is moving many things inside the mill it powers, it can't move 20 times in an hour.

So your gun will gain a slightly faster rate of fire, AND some extended duration of charge. The duration is only extended as far as the motor is restricted from using the current available...in other words your motor cycles at the rate its required current is available. Both a slight ROF increase and a duration of charge increase...both noticeable.

But if you upgrade your springs, put in a heavier motor to operate them, alter your gearing, suddenly it takes 0.2 liters to turn that wheel. And the 2 liters of water will only turn it 10 times. back to your original ROF and duration of charge.

To fix THIS, you need more pressure...lift your water higher. 11.1 feet.

Now, thanks to that added pressure, the new upgrades go back to the old stats, only needing 0.1 liters of water to turn the motor, and therefor only needing 1 liter per hour worth of water to turn the wheel 10 times in an hour's use. Open it up so it has 2 liters in it, it will run at 1 liter per hour for 2 hours, minus losses from side issues.



Basically, your gun uses a known amount of current to function. So long as neither your resistance or voltage changes, then it can use that current for as long as it has juice stored for. 1000 cycles, 1600 cycles, 2500 cycles, whatever.
But change resistance, you have to change voltage, or not only will you not get the current needed for anywhere near the time you expected, but it won't cycle as quickly.


So replacing a lower mAh battery with a higher one will give you a hair's advantage in rate of fire, and a bigger one in duration of charge, but if you upgrade your gun to increase FPS (or for any reason that makes the gun work any harder), if you don't raise voltage, you're killing both duration of charge and rate of fire.


Which, to me, means that you always go after raising both voltage and mAh rating...because you're a fool, IMO to try to only upgrade your battery, OR to try to run a modified gun on a stock motor and battery.

It is essentially like spending all the time and money on a bigger gas tank....for a stock Hyundai engine. You want to do a better set of injectors, and higher performance engine before even thinking about spending the money to throw an extra couple gallons in it. And then, you have to consider that the high performance engine and top end fuel injectors will eat up a fair bit of the added fuel capacity.

QUOTE (JonnyDeath @ Dec 14 2012, 01:13 PM) *
It looks like this is where I should have posted.
This is basically a long post that in short, is a way to get really high end lithium 8.4vdc power on a hobos budget.
If it's beyond your scope of technical skills, let me know and I will post an instructional because it's not all that complicated when it comes down to it.
Admittedly I am still waiting on the necessary parts to arrive but I am very experienced in electronics. I know what will work and what MIGHT work.
This will work.

Let me make this clear, I AM NOT CURRENTLY A PLAYER.
So while performance is important, it's not crucial.
For now my gun is just a very high end toy I can use for target practice in the backyard rather than blow the money on firearm ammo.
Of course, I will surely get into this sport after having gotten such a good look at it!

Anyway for anyone willing to run on 8.4 vdc lithium ion you might be interested in this.
I'm not a cheapskate but I am cheap when it comes to certain goods. As a college student earning my electronic engineering degree with many years of experience all across the design and construction board in not just electronics, I refuse to pay $14+ for a junk no name battery let alone $20+ for a so called "name brand" battery because lets face it, if it's not coming out of a brand that's been around for 30+ years, it's just parts bought from a manufacturer that HAS been around 30+ years and they are having it built to their request and company header stamped on it.

Now with that out of the way if you weren't offended, here's what I'm proposing.
I have over a dozen 4.2 vdc lithium ion cells all a minimum of 4000 mah.
Wired in series, that's 8.4 4000 mah and a very small form factor.
Now take this into consideration.
When a battery measures 9.6 volts, you are NOT getting 9.6 volts out of it.
Due to the internal resistance of all batteries, they produce a voltage drop in the circuit just as all other devices do from resistors, to diodes to capacitors.
So you can knock off probably up to 1 vdc or slightly more when you actually pull the trigger on your gun.

With a lithium ion, internal resistance is much lower.
So if you're at 8.4 vdc you can expect to get about 8 vdc supplied to the circuit after the battery's internal resistance drops the supply vdc under load.

18650's are generally around 3.7 vdc to 4.2 vdc but I've yet to use one that didn't charge to at least 4.2 and often they hit 4.4 and don't drop so low as to 3.7 until they're 2/3 discharged.
For the cost of a smart charger with a set of these batteries, a battery box and soldering on the appropriate molex to connect it to your gun, you're talking maybe 20 to 25 dollars tops off Ebay. The battery box allows you to just swap out the cells. These are the same cells in your laptop battery packs. I'm really thrifty on Ebay so I've landed sets of 6 @ 4800mah for 16 bucks. Smart chargers with sets of 4 for $8 all including shipping.

Granted you want your 9.6 and higher for the field but if you want to fire off thousands of rounds on a single set of batteries for target practice, this rig will do the trick, spare your primary batteries and just save you a loooooot of money. As many of you know, even when matching voltages lithium ions outperform alkaline, ni-mh which is a lesson in particle physics I will spare you because even I am just fresh to understanding some of this knowledge.

But it's just a thought for the rest of you!
I'd rather fire off 8 rps for several hours in the backyrad on the same battery than 12 rps and have to swap batteries that will of course have a shortened lifespan. Don't get me wrong, ni-mh is great and can last for years but, we all know sometimes they hold a charge sitting around for weeks, sometimes the same battery goes dead in 4 days from sitting even though it would have lasted a month had it been plugged into a device.


You dropped a good idea on me, there...but space constraints are making it problematic. If you can parallel cells of a given voltage, you get the accumulated mAh (4 cells of 9V each, 500 mAh, you get 9V /2000 mAh), and you can boost voltage by series wiring...but the space restrictions are difficult.

But...nobody seems to be thinking capacitance, either. Which is making me think in interesting directions. A capacitor wants to maintain current...doesn't matter what kind of power behind it, or resistance it has to go through, it wants to kick back the amount of current that was going in, when it's stopped. Power, like water, travels the path of least resistance. very low resistance load, through a diode, and into capacitor, diode prevents kicking back into the source of charge (battery), forcing it to the next path of least resistance...the motor.

Depending on quality and ratings of the electronics involved (which determine charge time for the capacitor), your period of discharge FROM the capacitor is definable...and that period is what determines how long the motor runs.

Seems to me (going off the top of my head from electronics classes 20 years ago) that a relatively low powered battery could juice something like this...like hearing aid battery powered. Even though they'd only have a couple dozen bursts a piece in them, they could be..."hoppered" is the best word I can think of...arranged so that as one is used up, it's dropped or shuttled into a "discharged" bin. Rechargeable #5 hearing aid batteries in spring-loaded clips in a feed tube, with a recovery tube connected to it, integral with the foregrip? Sold in stacks of 50 or 60 (you can buy these batteries retail in these quantities for a relatively low price)...something like that? Which would leave players in the position of only needing to carry a hand full of small tubes to "load" from time to time to maintain a charge for whatever period, and make them recoverable in exactly the same way (discharge system shuffles them into an empty tube?)

Possibly too intricate and complicated to make it practical in use...but just as possibly, this might make a huge difference in play, simply having to pop your forward grip assembly, pull out the empty tube, swap it with the "discharge tube" that is now full of dead (or nearly dead) batteries, and slide in a tube of fresh batteries. Pop a sliding bolt of some sort to change out the batteries as you go along?

This post has been edited by airborne101: Feb 1 2013, 10:59 AM
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Lefse
post Feb 1 2013, 11:47 AM
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Why on earth would you use a battery rig that overly complicated, expensive and impractical to run an AEG instead of a $10 li-po form an RC retailer? Or am I missing something here?
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post Feb 3 2013, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (Lefse @ Feb 1 2013, 08:47 AM) *
Why on earth would you use a battery rig that overly complicated, expensive and impractical to run an AEG instead of a $10 li-po form an RC retailer? Or am I missing something here?



Depends on what you're looking for as to why you'd run something complicated, or not, really. General rule of thumb is as said in first couple posts, mAh is durability, Voltage is "strength", strength only seriously impacts the weight of spring that can be pulled, and how quickly any given weight of spring can be pulled. Which most has impact on rate of fire.

But if you think of it in terms of human bodies, a higher mAh is basically associated with light lifters...the higher the rating, the longer they can keep lifting at their given strength. If you take a stronger bodybuilder (higher voltage), it's the difference in how much weight he can lift. BUT if you take a stronger bodybuilder, and give him a lower weight to lift, he will also be able to lift it longer than the weaker lifter. And faster. Which means a higher voltage motor can work a heavier spring faster, and can last a little while longer on a weaker spring than the lower voltage motor, while doing it quite a bit faster.


The FPS difference I mentioned comes from one minor aspect...if you're lifting faster, it means you're also dropping it faster, and more cleanly. Since initial acceleration has a lot to do with FPS on exiting the barrel, how fast the pressure is built up, and how long it STAYS built up have impact.

You'll lose FPS if your motor turns so fast that it is withdrawing the piston before the round has exited the barrel, which drops the pressure pushing the round, both ending the acceleration provided by the back-pressure and making the round deal unaided with the friction provided by the barrel. So that's always something you have to calculate, and allow for. But as long as ROF (which reflects how fast the motor is turning) is low enough that it means the round is getting maximum available pressure behind it the whole time it's travelling the barrel, and the spring is being released "more crisply", so it hits the piston with more power, giving a higher initial pressure, and increasing that pressure more quickly (to the limit of the spring's ability to contract), you'll gain some FPS.

Anything at all you can do to increase the amount of pressure, and speed with which it is applied, so long as that pressure doesn't ease off before the round exits the barrel, increases FPS.
Anything at all you do to increase either capacity of the battery OR strength of battery will have more impact on durability--capacity rating indicating being the more significant figure to watch for this purpose.
Change both of these factors, you have to calculate carefully to get a balanced impact on performance.

This post has been edited by Whiteout: Feb 3 2013, 05:50 PM
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Lefse
post Feb 3 2013, 06:23 PM
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What you say doesn't even make sense.
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unlimitedRA1N
post Feb 3 2013, 07:51 PM
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What??? a-skeptical.gif a-confused.gif

Battery voltage has nothing to do with FPS. It also has nothing to do with how much of a spring can be pulled. A stronger spring generally requires a battery with a higher total amp output or a motor with more torque, not more voltage.


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post Feb 3 2013, 09:12 PM
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Whiteout, Im sorry to say you have everything seriously mixed up....


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post Feb 3 2013, 11:57 PM
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Maybe I'm not saying what I mean clearly enough. I dunno.

But V does have impact on what can be pulled, as there is more resistance involved both in a higher torque motor and a heavier spring.

V=IR voltage is identical with current times resistance.

If you raise EITHER the required current (in amps) needed to do the work, OR the resistance in the circuit, you raise the voltage needed to provide it.

There is no way to pull a heavier spring without causing one of these two to increase.
There is no way to create a stronger motor without requiring one or both to increase.

With any increase in either in the circuit, the demand for voltage to actually produce these increases is increased.

Any increase in speed of rotation in any motor represents an increase in current AND resistance. Resistance in the form of mechanical resistance opposing the work you want the motor to do, current in the speed of flow of electrons needed to cause the motor to turn faster. This means voltage increases.

Additionally, if the motor, or any parts, are producing more heat, this is further loss (heat in electrical circuits is represented in watts, or "P" in the Ohm's law), which also increases draw on voltage, and is a direct by-product of resistance.

Look at the technical specs of higher torque, or higher speed motors, you will see in both cases that there are more coils involved, and heavier magnets, in higher torque motors, as well.
Both of which create an increase of resistance in the circuit.
Look at the work done by a motor pulling a heavier spring. Anyone with a sense of touch can tell you the motor gets hotter, faster, which demonstrates an increase in wattage that is directly perceptible. This increase can only exist alongside an increase in current or resistance.

The reason a higher voltage battery speeds up ROF in an otherwise unaltered system is that it creates circumstances where current has to increase to balance the equasion. Resistance hasn't changed, voltage has, therefor current has to, as well, to balance it.

Example: start with a stock setup with an 8.4 volt battery, 4.2 ohms resistance, and 2 amps current draw, your battery will be 8.4V /1000 mAh, and last about half an hour.
Equation is 8.4 V = 4.2 Ohm * 2 Amp

Put in an 11.1 volt battery, no change in resistance (same motor, spring, gears, friction coefficient), you now have 11.1 V= 4.2 Ohm * ? Amp for your Ohm's Law equation.
divide both sides by 4.2 to isolate the unknown current, you get 11.1 / 4.2 = ?, which is 2.642 (sorry, doing the math for you--but feel free to check it)

Your current has increased by .642 amps, so the motor will spin as much faster as it takes to use that current. Increasing your rate of fire (or do you deny that a faster turning motor speeds up your rate of fire? If so, justify the claim.)

But because the current drawn has increased, to balance the equation, the mAh has to change, as well, in order to give you the same lifespan.

now mAh states how many hours a battery can produce X amps for, so it is a "capacity" rating, but does not reflect any change if the number of amps drawn (the current needed) is increased. If your system is altered to require 20% more current (from 1000 milliamps to 1200 milliamps, for instance), and you stay with a 1000 mAh battery, you would lose 20% of your duration of charge immediately, because the 1000 mAh means, specifically, that if you draw 1 amp (1000 milliamps) current, it will produce it for 1 hour. If you suddenly draw 1.2 amps (1200 milliamps), the battery can only draw that for 50 minutes (in the best of possible conditions).

Instead of running for 30 minutes on a 1000mAh (2 Amps drawn from a battery that can produce 1 amp for an hour's time, means that it can provide that juice for half an hour) rated battery, the new equation says you will need 1321 mAh to support the new current draw for the same length of time (2 ampere draw on 1A or 1000milliamp hour capacity battery = 0.5 hours before it has drained, 2.642 Ampere draw on 1 amp or 1000 milliamp hour capacity = 0.37 hours. 2642 mAh required to run 2.642 Amps for an hour, halve that to run it for 30 minutes, and you need 1321mAh. Again, feel free to check the math)


Similarly, if you increase resistance by making the motor work harder to pull a heavier spring, no matter which method is used to increase motor strength, you have to raise voltage, or lose current, one. The equation HAS to balance.
And with any increase on current comes a reduction in the length of time the batteries can produce that current.

So even if you raise voltage to balance the equation, there will be some reduction in how long the battery can produce power, because SOME increase in current produced will occur no matter what you do (a basic tenet of the first law of thermodynamics).


If you can prove ANY of this wrong, please tell me EXACTLY the equipment used, because I'd love to do it in lab conditions to demonstrate it--violating an established scientific law is almost a guarantee of a Nobel Prize in science, and a million dollar paycheck. And I could use that money.


As for a stronger motor producing a small increase in FPS, with no other alterations...again, work done is going to change when you alter the equation, even when the equation is balanced. You have changed the energy put into the system, so both the heat released by the system and the work done by it will increase, to balance the thermodynamic principles.
The work done in an airsoft gun is the turning of the gears, pulling back of the spring and piston, then releasing the spring, driving the piston forward, compressing air, which pushes the BB. The only possible sign of this increase in work done is the increase in heat released and the end-product of the work done--the kinetic energy present in the BB, its rate of travel.

Again, if you find a way to demonstrate this is not true, please tell me exactly the equipment used, I'll buy it in a heartbeat, as that Nobel would look pretty on my fireplace shelf, and the money would be well appreciated, as well. But you can't (and everyone who has done any form of upgrade knows about heat increase, you can FEEL it, so you can't NOT know the rest of the transfer of energy has to be present as well).


All of which means that, even if I wasn't completely clear in what I was saying, you evidently got the meaning, and are trying to deny that it's true...when it would have to violate scientific laws, not theories or hypotheses, but laws that have stood against every attempt by the smartest folks since their establishment, for a hundred years or more, in order NOT to be true.



So you're equipped to figure out any part of this, converting whatever variables you like, here are the sets of equations for Ohm's Law:
V = Volts (energy) R = Ohms (resistance) I = Amperes (current) P = Watts (power expressed as heat released)

V = IR
V = P/I
V = sq root (PR)

I = V/R
I = P/V
I = sq root (P/R)

R = V/I
R = (V^2)/P
R = P/(I^2)

P = VI
P = R(I^2)
P = (V^2)/R


First law of thermodynamics: Heat and work are forms of energy transfer.

Work, in the case of an airsoft gun, is the eventual motion transferred to the BB, which is the prime purpose for the whole system. Heat is NOT the only thing to increase if you alter the energy imparted to this system by a battery. Nor does the increase in rate of fire combined with the heat increase created by increasing current (replacing a lower voltage battery with a higher voltage one, without changing resistance) account for the losses involved. Therefor more work must be being done than *just* increasing speed of motion (rate of fire). The only possibility of accounting for this is additional energy imparted to the BB. Which converts to FPS, unless other impediments apply.

This post has been edited by Whiteout: Feb 4 2013, 02:01 AM
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post Feb 4 2013, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE (unlimitedRA1N @ Feb 3 2013, 04:51 PM) *
What??? a-skeptical.gif a-confused.gif

Battery voltage has nothing to do with FPS. It also has nothing to do with how much of a spring can be pulled. A stronger spring generally requires a battery with a higher total amp output or a motor with more torque, not more voltage.


A higher mAh has nothing to do with how many amps can be produced...only for how long they can be produced.

A typical 9V radio battery has a 500mAh rating. With a sufficiently low resistance in the circuit, it can pump 5 amps of current for about 6 minutes. 30 amps for 1 minute. 1800 amps for 1 second.
And it is capable of producing ALL of these currents, so long as the resistance allows it.
9 V = 500 milliamperes * 18 Ohms : 1 hour of use (500 milliamps being drawn)
9 V = 5000 milliamperes * 1.8 Ohms : 6 minutes (5000 milliamps being drawn, means 1/10th of an hour capacity, since the amps drawn are 10 X the capacity rating for time)
9 V = 30,000 milliamperes * 0.3 Ohms : 1 minute (60 times the 1 hour capacity)
9 V = 180,000 milliamperes * 0.005 Ohms : 1 second. (360 times the 1 hour capacity)
Notice in each case, to raise the current, you have to reduce the resistance. But it can be done. Has been done. Variations on just such examples are done in high school physics by just about any kid.

As you can see, to GET higher amperage in an airsoft gun, you have to raise voltage. Because you can't reduce resistance.
Borrow any electrician's multimeter (or go buy one for $20 at any hardware store), you can test the inherent resistance of the circuit in your gun (this doesn't include the resistance provided in MOVING the parts, just the inherent resistance in the purely electrical portion of the process).
You can even clip the leads to the wires, and fire the gun, to see the current being produced, and, knowing the battery's voltage, figure out what the total resistance is, including mechanical resistance.

A higher torque motor has higher resistance. As does a heavier spring. Both of which have to be overcome. The current draw is usually higher, as well. Since you've raised resistance AND current draw (amps used), you have to raise voltage, or the equation isn't true. And as I said above, if you can demonstrate a case where this isn't true, please tell me what equipment was used...I'd love that Nobel Prize.

Since amps used have increased, the mAh rating may stay the same, but it will last less time. As said above, if you suddenly alter your system to draw 1.2 amps (1200mA) instead of 1 amp (1000mA) then you need a 1200 mAh battery to run it for an hour, rather than a 1000mAh. That is what those ratings mean.

And any alteration will increase either amps drawn or resistance provided, if not both. Which requires a higher voltage battery to balance the equation, and a higher mAh rating to match duration, since you'll end up producing more amperage, regardless, even if it was resistance you changed deliberately.

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post Feb 4 2013, 11:28 AM
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Then explain how a 9,6v 3600mAh ni-mh pack will give a faster trigger response and ROF than a 9,6v 1600mAh ni-mh pack , when running a high drain setup, when both have the average discharge rate of RC ni-mh packs? Also explain why it's common to have the discharge rating in C mentioned in the specs for lithium based batteries? Also explain why a 7,4 2000mAh 20C li-po pack has a significantly higher power output than an 11,1v 1000mAh 20C li-po pack?

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post Feb 4 2013, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (Lefse @ Feb 4 2013, 08:28 AM) *
Then explain how a 9,6v 3600mAh ni-mh pack will give a faster trigger response and ROF than a 9,6v 1600mAh ni-mh pack , when running a high drain setup, when both have the average discharge rate of RC ni-mh packs? Also explain why it's common to have the discharge rating in C mentioned in the specs for lithium based batteries? Also explain why a 7,4 2000mAh 20C li-po pack has a significantly higher power output than an 11,1v 1000mAh 20C li-po pack?


Honestly, you'd have to demonstrate the first claim...equal equipment, equal conditions, different mAh rated batteries. Again, if you can, tell me how--there's a serious bit of notoriety, and a lot of money, in wait for anyone who can show that Ohm's Law is able to be violated. Though I suspect you're correct, and there is SOME difference, only because, though they will be equal at equal points in discharge (not time, percent of battery life left), and they will be equal when both are fully charged (obviously, they're both at 100% at that time) after 60 minutes of .8 amp draw, the 1600 mAh will be at 50% depletion, while the 3600 mAh will only have depleted 22.5%...and depletion of charge comes with a reduction of voltage available (touch a multimeter to a dead battery, and it reads zero volts. Charge the same battery, it reads the battery's maximum voltage capacity)...and we've established that if there's more voltage available, there's more current available for a system with stable resistance. So while both will have the same rate of fire at their respective 100% charged, 50% charged, 25% charged states, the higher mAh rated battery takes longer to drain to those points, so appears to provide a higher RoF at any significant difference in time it's been being discharged.
Anyone who's ever had a flashlight battery run out while they're using it can tell you that the current drops as the battery dies...the bulb gets steadily dimmer until there's not enough juice to make it glow. now you know why.

Lithium based batteries use a C rating because that defines its discharge rate. It defines how fast they can charge and discharge...call it an internal regulator of how much current can be produced or accepted. Where, as I pointed out above in my 9V radio battery example, you could get 180,000 amps from that puny little battery, a Lithium battery has a limit to the current it is able to produce that is non-dependent on the resistance present in the system.

For the last question...the answer above should tell you, but I'll answer it specifically and clearly. They both have the same limitation on current they are able to provide. Having the same C rating, the capacity is the determining factor (C is always a multiple or divisor of the mAh/Ah rating, so same C rating on a higher capacity battery means the battery can produce higher current)...but by the same lights, since the lower voltage battery is providing the higher current (twice the current as the lower, in your example), it will discharge more quickly. And, since it initially has a lower voltage, at the same point in overall duration of charge (percent of life left), the lower voltage battery will lose the power to produce that current much sooner than the higher.

But your example batteries (11.1 V, 1000 mAh 20C and 7.4 V, 2000 mAh 20C) are NOT producing "more power", you're producing more current, and temporarily, at that. Through a system that has a limited "permitted" production (Ever read the warnings on laptop batteries? Or lithium-ion cordless power tools? Or been told what happens if you use a charger on a lithium battery not built for that battery? There's a reason you either use a smart charger or one specifically made for your lithium battery. Violate its limitations, defined by the ratio of the C rating to the Ampere-hours, you get a fire, an explosion, or a battery that won't charge no matter how long it's on the charger.)


That answer your questions?

This post has been edited by Whiteout: Feb 4 2013, 01:05 PM
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CBPChris
post Feb 4 2013, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (JonnyDeath @ Dec 14 2012, 04:13 PM) *
It looks like this is where I should have posted.
This is basically a long post that in short, is a way to get really high end lithium 8.4vdc power on a hobos budget.
If it's beyond your scope of technical skills, let me know and I will post an instructional because it's not all that complicated when it comes down to it.
Admittedly I am still waiting on the necessary parts to arrive but I am very experienced in electronics. I know what will work and what MIGHT work.
This will work.

Let me make this clear, I AM NOT CURRENTLY A PLAYER.
So while performance is important, it's not crucial.
For now my gun is just a very high end toy I can use for target practice in the backyard rather than blow the money on firearm ammo.
Of course, I will surely get into this sport after having gotten such a good look at it!

Anyway for anyone willing to run on 8.4 vdc lithium ion you might be interested in this.
I'm not a cheapskate but I am cheap when it comes to certain goods. As a college student earning my electronic engineering degree with many years of experience all across the design and construction board in not just electronics, I refuse to pay $14+ for a junk no name battery let alone $20+ for a so called "name brand" battery because lets face it, if it's not coming out of a brand that's been around for 30+ years, it's just parts bought from a manufacturer that HAS been around 30+ years and they are having it built to their request and company header stamped on it.

Now with that out of the way if you weren't offended, here's what I'm proposing.
I have over a dozen 4.2 vdc lithium ion cells all a minimum of 4000 mah.
Wired in series, that's 8.4 4000 mah and a very small form factor.
Now take this into consideration.
When a battery measures 9.6 volts, you are NOT getting 9.6 volts out of it.
Due to the internal resistance of all batteries, they produce a voltage drop in the circuit just as all other devices do from resistors, to diodes to capacitors.
So you can knock off probably up to 1 vdc or slightly more when you actually pull the trigger on your gun.

With a lithium ion, internal resistance is much lower.
So if you're at 8.4 vdc you can expect to get about 8 vdc supplied to the circuit after the battery's internal resistance drops the supply vdc under load.

18650's are generally around 3.7 vdc to 4.2 vdc but I've yet to use one that didn't charge to at least 4.2 and often they hit 4.4 and don't drop so low as to 3.7 until they're 2/3 discharged.
For the cost of a smart charger with a set of these batteries, a battery box and soldering on the appropriate molex to connect it to your gun, you're talking maybe 20 to 25 dollars tops off Ebay. The battery box allows you to just swap out the cells. These are the same cells in your laptop battery packs. I'm really thrifty on Ebay so I've landed sets of 6 @ 4800mah for 16 bucks. Smart chargers with sets of 4 for $8 all including shipping.

Granted you want your 9.6 and higher for the field but if you want to fire off thousands of rounds on a single set of batteries for target practice, this rig will do the trick, spare your primary batteries and just save you a loooooot of money. As many of you know, even when matching voltages lithium ions outperform alkaline, ni-mh which is a lesson in particle physics I will spare you because even I am just fresh to understanding some of this knowledge.

But it's just a thought for the rest of you!
I'd rather fire off 8 rps for several hours in the backyrad on the same battery than 12 rps and have to swap batteries that will of course have a shortened lifespan. Don't get me wrong, ni-mh is great and can last for years but, we all know sometimes they hold a charge sitting around for weeks, sometimes the same battery goes dead in 4 days from sitting even though it would have lasted a month had it been plugged into a device.





This is a delayed response since I havent been on the board in a while, but even though you are an engineering student, you have much to learn still


I have been making Lipos since about 02'. They have really only been in the RC scene since around then. So first and foremost, you wont find a manufacturer of 30 years. Secondly, Ordering cells offline, without testing them, doesnt mean a thing. In the battery world, a lot of places advertise a certain C rating, without being even close. For example, I havent seen anything perform past about a true 40-45C in years, yet there are batteries claiming 75+ C. We test ALOT of batteries around here, and are one of the few places that do it anymore

On your argument of voltage. I have not seen a 4.2v Lion cell on the market. The highest voltage in the RC world, is a 3.7v. Lion really isnt a good contender in airsoft or RC to be honests. They perform about as good as a Nimh, but take up a lot more space. It does ok, but the voltage drop isnt that great. Nor is the C rating. Lipo cells are a much better chemistry for performance. They DO charge to 4.2V.

Your argument of 8.4V Lithium out performing NiMh is flase also. Sure the Nimh drops in voltage, but so does Lion, and Lipo. A good Lipo will drop to around 3.6v per cell under a given load, and Lion is around 3.2. Nimh generally hovers around 1v per cell. Not to mention, Nimh peaks at 1.5V per cell. So do the math. An 8 cell Nimh, peaks at 12v. When under a load it will be around 8v. A lipo will dip to around 7.4v. A Lion will dip to about 6.4v

You can argue all you want, but I have been doing this for 11 years, and have seen time and time again what happens to them under a load. I also have a large airsoft arena a friend runs locally. All their players did some testing also, and concluded that a 9.6 Nimh of a good quality is hands down better than a 7.4V lipo. Now an 11.1V is different. That WILL have a higher rate of fire. But if you're comparing a good 9.6v Nimh to a good 7.4v lipo, the Nimh will win every time. I promise you that

And lastly, you mention using a molex plug for the battery. Again, you have much to learn. The plastic little Tamiya(molex) plugs that come stock, are junk. A deans is the way to go.

QUOTE (Whiteout @ Feb 1 2013, 04:21 AM) *
CPBChris...while I like your site, and use your products, your information to other users is misleading where it's not out and out incorrect.
Your statements flat out contradict Ohm's Law, which is the single most important principal behind any electrical question, in many respects.

V=IR is one "spoke" on this wheel, which means voltage is equal to current (milliamperes) times resistance.

to use the popular water analogy:
If your gun came stock with an 8.4 V /1000 mAh battery, it works something like this;

You have 8.4 meters of water (8.4 volts) which contains enough water to release 1 liter in an hour, before your pot of water is empty, you have 1 liter-hour of water available. If you have a wheel (resistance) that requires 0.1 liters of water for each revolution, then, if the water flows continuously for that hour (current), the wheel will turn 10 times, in that hour.
If you start and stop that wheel, it will still only turn 10 times.
If you fill that 8.4 meter container of water with enough water to not go dry until it has passed 2 liters of water, attach a spigot that restricts that flow to 1 liter per hour, and let it run, it will turn the wheel 20 times (over two hours, if allowed to run continuously). But since the "spigot" *doesn't* completely restrict the amount of water that can get to the wheel, to any great extent, what happens is the wheel turns faster...but because the wheel is heavy, has friction, and is moving many things inside the mill it powers, it can't move 20 times in an hour.

So your gun will gain a slightly faster rate of fire, AND some extended duration of charge. The duration is only extended as far as the motor is restricted from using the current available...in other words your motor cycles at the rate its required current is available. Both a slight ROF increase and a duration of charge increase...both noticeable.

But if you upgrade your springs, put in a heavier motor to operate them, alter your gearing, suddenly it takes 0.2 liters to turn that wheel. And the 2 liters of water will only turn it 10 times. back to your original ROF and duration of charge.

To fix THIS, you need more pressure...lift your water higher. 11.1 feet.

Now, thanks to that added pressure, the new upgrades go back to the old stats, only needing 0.1 liters of water to turn the motor, and therefor only needing 1 liter per hour worth of water to turn the wheel 10 times in an hour's use. Open it up so it has 2 liters in it, it will run at 1 liter per hour for 2 hours, minus losses from side issues.



Basically, your gun uses a known amount of current to function. So long as neither your resistance or voltage changes, then it can use that current for as long as it has juice stored for. 1000 cycles, 1600 cycles, 2500 cycles, whatever.
But change resistance, you have to change voltage, or not only will you not get the current needed for anywhere near the time you expected, but it won't cycle as quickly.


So replacing a lower mAh battery with a higher one will give you a hair's advantage in rate of fire, and a bigger one in duration of charge, but if you upgrade your gun to increase FPS (or for any reason that makes the gun work any harder), if you don't raise voltage, you're killing both duration of charge and rate of fire.


Which, to me, means that you always go after raising both voltage and mAh rating...because you're a fool, IMO to try to only upgrade your battery, OR to try to run a modified gun on a stock motor and battery.

It is essentially like spending all the time and money on a bigger gas tank....for a stock Hyundai engine. You want to do a better set of injectors, and higher performance engine before even thinking about spending the money to throw an extra couple gallons in it. And then, you have to consider that the high performance engine and top end fuel injectors will eat up a fair bit of the added fuel capacity.



You dropped a good idea on me, there...but space constraints are making it problematic. If you can parallel cells of a given voltage, you get the accumulated mAh (4 cells of 9V each, 500 mAh, you get 9V /2000 mAh), and you can boost voltage by series wiring...but the space restrictions are difficult.

But...nobody seems to be thinking capacitance, either. Which is making me think in interesting directions. A capacitor wants to maintain current...doesn't matter what kind of power behind it, or resistance it has to go through, it wants to kick back the amount of current that was going in, when it's stopped. Power, like water, travels the path of least resistance. very low resistance load, through a diode, and into capacitor, diode prevents kicking back into the source of charge (battery), forcing it to the next path of least resistance...the motor.

Depending on quality and ratings of the electronics involved (which determine charge time for the capacitor), your period of discharge FROM the capacitor is definable...and that period is what determines how long the motor runs.

Seems to me (going off the top of my head from electronics classes 20 years ago) that a relatively low powered battery could juice something like this...like hearing aid battery powered. Even though they'd only have a couple dozen bursts a piece in them, they could be..."hoppered" is the best word I can think of...arranged so that as one is used up, it's dropped or shuttled into a "discharged" bin. Rechargeable #5 hearing aid batteries in spring-loaded clips in a feed tube, with a recovery tube connected to it, integral with the foregrip? Sold in stacks of 50 or 60 (you can buy these batteries retail in these quantities for a relatively low price)...something like that? Which would leave players in the position of only needing to carry a hand full of small tubes to "load" from time to time to maintain a charge for whatever period, and make them recoverable in exactly the same way (discharge system shuffles them into an empty tube?)

Possibly too intricate and complicated to make it practical in use...but just as possibly, this might make a huge difference in play, simply having to pop your forward grip assembly, pull out the empty tube, swap it with the "discharge tube" that is now full of dead (or nearly dead) batteries, and slide in a tube of fresh batteries. Pop a sliding bolt of some sort to change out the batteries as you go along?


I am not sure where I was incorrect. Would you mind telling me where I was wrong? I only had time to skim this a bit, then skim my original post.
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post Feb 4 2013, 02:55 PM
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My first claim is simply explained, the larger ni-mh pack can provide a higher potential current, and will have less voltage drop under load than the smaller ni-mh pack, this is physics 101.

Regarding my example with the 7,4v and 11,1v li-po's, the 7,4v li-po WILL provide a higher power output, because it compensates for the lower voltage with a higher current, U*I=P no? It won't spin the motor faster, but it can provide a higher power output at the sector gear than the 11,1v li-po with it's higher current. Compensate for the slower rotational speed of the motor with a lower ratio gear set and voila, higher ROF with lower voltage. Why not use the 11,1v li-po with the lower gear ratio to get even higher ROF you say? If the 7,4v li-po is ran at it's limit with the lower gear ratio, than the 11,1v li-po will be overloaded and may be damaged, it may not even be able to turn over the motor properly.

This is why a 7,4v li-po will give a higher ROF than a 9,6v ni-mh in some cases, because the ni-mh battery is most likely a crappy stock one and can't provide enough amps to run the motor without a severe voltage drop. If the 7,4v li-po can provide enough current to run the motor without much voltage drop, then the effective operating voltage will be higher with the 7,4v li-po, resulting in a higher ROF. If you replace the 9,6v ni-m battery with a larger high quality pack that can run the motor with less voltage sag, it will provide a higher operating voltage to the motor, resulting in higher ROF.

You claim it's possible to drain 180kA, this is not possible, a little 9V alkaline or ni-mh simply can't put out that much current.
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post Feb 5 2013, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (Lefse @ Feb 4 2013, 11:55 AM) *
My first claim is simply explained, the larger ni-mh pack can provide a higher potential current, and will have less voltage drop under load than the smaller ni-mh pack, this is physics 101.

Regarding my example with the 7,4v and 11,1v li-po's, the 7,4v li-po WILL provide a higher power output, because it compensates for the lower voltage with a higher current, U*I=P no? It won't spin the motor faster, but it can provide a higher power output at the sector gear than the 11,1v li-po with it's higher current. Compensate for the slower rotational speed of the motor with a lower ratio gear set and voila, higher ROF with lower voltage. Why not use the 11,1v li-po with the lower gear ratio to get even higher ROF you say? If the 7,4v li-po is ran at it's limit with the lower gear ratio, than the 11,1v li-po will be overloaded and may be damaged, it may not even be able to turn over the motor properly.

This is why a 7,4v li-po will give a higher ROF than a 9,6v ni-mh in some cases, because the ni-mh battery is most likely a crappy stock one and can't provide enough amps to run the motor without a severe voltage drop. If the 7,4v li-po can provide enough current to run the motor without much voltage drop, then the effective operating voltage will be higher with the 7,4v li-po, resulting in a higher ROF. If you replace the 9,6v ni-m battery with a larger high quality pack that can run the motor with less voltage sag, it will provide a higher operating voltage to the motor, resulting in higher ROF.

You claim it's possible to drain 180kA, this is not possible, a little 9V alkaline or ni-mh simply can't put out that much current.

Except it doesn't have any higher "potential current". mAh is CAPACITY. "size of gas tank". milliampere hours, not "how many milliamperes I can put out" but "how LONG can I put out X milliamperes". A 1000 mAh rating says "I can put out 1 amp for an hour", the 2000 mAh says "I can put out 1 amp for two hours".
Now if you had a different rating you're balancing off of (and they exist) where you had an 8.4 V /1000 mA (no h) battery and a 7.4 V 2000 mA (no h) battery, you'd be saying one can produce up to 1 amp, the other up to 2, and thus the 7.4 would be "more powerful" (and unless it had more than double the mAh capacity, would drain quite a bit faster).

Again, Voltage basically equals force--the force needed to "push" electrons at a given rate through a given resistance. There *are* certain electronic components out that have no set internal resistance, and will dominate what current is allowed through regardless of V, but they require a particular voltage to power them (for instance, old school diodes demanded .2 volts to overcome them but whether you had a .2V power source or a 20 V power source, the current in the circuit was restricted to the diode's current rating. So if you had a 1 Amp diode, no matte what else you did, the total current in the circuit could only amount to 1 Amp...but if you had 3 volts you couldn't power a circuit with 20 .2 V diodes, no matter how hard you tried, even though a multimeter on the circuit would show no more resistance than was created by the other components, so long as no power source was present).

Voltage is your "potential current". It is "how much force can be placed behind the electrons to make them go", or "how high the gravity fed resivoir is above the mechanism", or "how strong the wind is blowing", or "how many horsepower are in your car's engine",whatever analogy you care to use. mAh is "how many gallons are in the resivoir" or "how many minutes the wind will last at X speed", or "how big your gas tank is"

V is potential energy, I is a reading of the kinetic energy produced by your potential energy, when released, against resistance of a given value. Quite literally. V is the potential energy of the electrons stored in one of the catalysts in the battery that CAN move to the other during a power-generating reaction. I is the kinetic energy of those electrons through the circuit.

Quite literally. Physics 101. Again, Ohm's law. Or did you sleep during that chapter?

mAh to mA production is horsepower-hours compared to horsepower. Or man-hours required to finish a product or project opposed to men actually needed to do it. You might have a construction project where to budget it, you have to budget for 150 man-hours, but if you have 4 guys working on the job, it still takes less than a week. That's your mAh/mA.

Very good on the 7.4/11.1 comparison...but did you notice that you changed the resistance? In changing the gear ratio involved, you changed mechanical resistance. Ever ridden a multi-gear bicycle? What you are saying is effectively that while altering battery, you ALSO downshifted from your 2:1 ratio (usually about 5th gear) to your 1.27:1 (a normal ratio for first gear). Less muscle needed to push the bike along, but much faster pedaling needed to keep it at the same speed. Less voltage/more current. Same principal as changing gears in an automobile transmission, as well.

In doing so, you are compensating for the lower voltage (less powerful motor) by changing the resistance so that the same work is done (or even more) with less force...at the expense of higher current (which the battery can produce because the C rating, being a ratio, says the battery can discharge more current, even if it's for less time)


"Voltage sag" doesn't exist. Unless you are trying to describe the fact that a lower capacity battery loses absolute voltage as it discharges current, and, having less "reservoir", it reduces the relative volume of that reservoir more quickly?.
Again, you're talking about a rating of potential energy vs a rating of period in which X kinetic energy can be produced. Either can produce whatever X of current you like at the same time, with the same force, at the same comparative point in discharge of reservoir.

A volt:
volt 1 (vlt)
n. Abbr. V
The International System unit of electric potential[b] and electromotive force, equal to the [b]difference of electric potential[b] between two points on a conducting wire carrying a constant current of one ampere when the power dissipated between the points is one watt.[color]

Or to make it more clear, if you have 9.6V you have the potential energy to move electrons at a rate of 9.6 Amps constantly through a circuit with resistance that creates 1 watt of heat release or work done (or combination of the two, as thermodynamics states, they are interchangeable).

Wattage is quite literally the heat created by friction of moving electrons through a resistance OR the work done by those electrons (again heat/motion interchangable--thermodynamics)
[color=red]watt(n.)
the SI unit of power, equivalent to one [b]joule per second
and equal to the power in a circuit in which a current of one ampere flows across a potential difference of one volt.

A joule is a unit of work done, or heat produced.
The joule, symbol J, is a derived unit of energy, work, or amount of heat in the International System of Units. (SI)[1] It is equal to the energy expended (or work done) in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one metre (1 newton metre or N∑m), or in passing an electric current of one ampere through a resistance (mechanical or electrical) of one ohm for one second.Parentheticals mine.

Current is the speed at which those electrons move--the kinetic energy, dissipated through heat or work done:
noun .
the base SI unit of electrical current, equivalent to one coulomb per second[b], formally defined to be the constant [b]current which if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross section, and placed one meter apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to 2 ◊ 10 −7 newton per meter of length. Abbreviation: A, amp.
==kinetic energy--speed of motion of electrons
Current is motion. A river, in motion, has a current, a lake does not. An air current is air in motion. AN ocean current is ocean water in motion. A faster current, more current, is faster motion

Resistance is either mechanical or resistance to the flow of electrons by components in the circuit..."weight of work to be done" or "things that impede the flow of electrons". Measured in ohms
: Ohm: the practical meter-kilogram-second unit of electric resistance equal to the resistance of a circuit in which a potential difference of one volt produces a current of one ampere

All of these definitions are taken from external sources, NOT my own, in order to demonstrate that "potential current" is NOT mAh, but Volts, current is measured in Amperes or milliAmperes, and denotes SPEED of KINETIC motion of electrons, resistance is provided by electrical or mechanical impedence to the current, work done (heat produced or motion created by opposing that resistance).

They are totally and completely dependent on each-other. You can alter one to alter another, and retain balance. But if you alter one WITHOUT altering the others, they will alter themselves, to maintain balance. By producing more heat/work, working faster because motion (current) increases, or increasing resistance (technically, if you alter voltage in an absolute system, one such as an airsoft gun in which you alter NO OTHER PARTS, you will increase both current AND resistance, but that's because it's a mechanical system doing electromotive work, and the increase in electromotive work also increases friction in moving parts, creating more heat, so you're producing the proper balance of watts, but a larger percentage of them are expressed as heat loss).



Trust me on this, Lefse, you're talking to a dinosaur from that age when an audio-cassette or reel-to-reel tape was what you used in place of a hard drive, most often (like well before TRS-80 days), and you HAD to wire up a power source for them that balanced the rate of travel over the tape heads to the noise-loss in signal, which took finicky wiring, who grew up altering CB radios and FM transistor radios to extend range, and still plays with a HAM radio set (and has been fined three times for exceeding FCC allowances for a personal station broadcast strength). I know my electronics. I got into airsoft because my boys got into it, and the games are similar enough to the FTX "battle exercises" of my Army days that I jumped in with both feet just to have some fun "reliving my glory days" (and using some of the techniques I learned probably before you were born, definitely if you were born after 1987, to show smartass teenage boys that an old man can get more done with less energy on the field).

CO2 systems, you could probably school me on. I'm just now really picking up on the mechanical knowledge behind using them safely in home-made devices (when the hell will Airsoft manufacturers start making some GOOD trap systems? I'm always afraid I'm going to hurt someone, so I don't even try half of what I've thought up).
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post Feb 5 2013, 01:37 PM
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I think the problem here is that we think in very different terms. My explanations may sometimes be poorly formulated, as English is not my first language. You clearly have extensive knowledge of electronics, I will not claim to have more knowledge in that field than you. You look at this in a very complex way, I have a more simplified view on this, a more practical approach. I don't bother with complex equations and variables, I don't make things more complicated than I have to. You seem to treat batteries as theoretically perfect power sources with no voltage sag under load? A battery is not a perfect power source, it will have a certain voltage sag under load, a 9,6v battery will provide well below the rated voltage if the load is trying to draw more amps than it can provide. At least this is my understanding of, and experience with batteries.

If I have a battery that is rated at say, 11,1v 40-80C 1400mAh (one of my personal li-po's), then I know that this battery can put out up to 56A continously and 112A in short bursts. If I have a setup that I know will draw 25-30 amps, and have a wiring that has an appropriate cross-section for the motors power consumption, then I know that the battery will provide a relatively stable voltage to the motor, giving me the full potential of the motor. If I for some reason had to switch the above mentioned battery with on with these ratings, 11,1v 15-30C 1500mAh, then I know that this battery will have a significantly lower current output, and will have a bigger voltage drop under load, resulting in lower ROF and slower trigger response.
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post Feb 5 2013, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Lefse @ Feb 5 2013, 10:37 AM) *
I think the problem here is that we think in very different terms. My explanations may sometimes be poorly formulated, as English is not my first language. You clearly have extensive knowledge of electronics, I will not claim to have more knowledge in that field than you. You look at this in a very complex way, I have a more simplified view on this, a more practical approach. I don't bother with complex equations and variables, I don't make things more complicated than I have to. You seem to treat batteries as theoretically perfect power sources with no voltage sag under load? A battery is not a perfect power source, it will have a certain voltage sag under load, a 9,6v battery will provide well below the rated voltage if the load is trying to draw more amps than it can provide. At least this is my understanding of, and experience with batteries.

If I have a battery that is rated at say, 11,1v 40-80C 1400mAh (one of my personal li-po's), then I know that this battery can put out up to 56A continously and 112A in short bursts. If I have a setup that I know will draw 25-30 amps, and have a wiring that has an appropriate cross-section for the motors power consumption, then I know that the battery will provide a relatively stable voltage to the motor, giving me the full potential of the motor. If I for some reason had to switch the above mentioned battery with on with these ratings, 11,1v 15-30C 1500mAh, then I know that this battery will have a significantly lower current output, and will have a bigger voltage drop under load, resulting in lower ROF and slower trigger response.



Ahhh...I understand what you meant by "voltage sag", now...it's not really "voltage sag", but a decent way to describe it. And it's a phenomenon that occurs with ANY power source, with a car to get it going takes more gas than keeping it going...or "why city mileage is worse than highway mileage". Same with batteries, you're right...constantly stopping/starting the drain on them depletes them faster, and there *is* a moment where the sudden "release in pressure" created by "opening the valve" to start current makes the battery momentarily less efficient. But changing the capacity doesn't alter it (might make it last a bit less time--will have to look that one up, not a problem I've ever had to be concerned with, before)

Yes, a battery (of any voltage) will provide far less than its rated voltage if the ability to provide current is exceeded...that's a side function of the fact a battery is a chemical reaction, and, depending on the chemicals involved, they can react only so quickly. That's why we use li-po or nickle compounds that are rechargeable, rather than the rechargeable alkaline of lesser types still available for powering your television remote or Playstation remote. Theoretically there is no such limitation. Electrically, there is no such limitation. But by the methods used, there certainly is (again demonstrated by your exploding li-po battery on the wrong charger)

Your 11.1V example above is both correct and incorrect. The drop in current output (which certainly does exist, that's what the "C rating" means) is why the RoF decreases, not the voltage drop under load. The voltage drop is illusory, in such cases--again, hook up a multimeter, and watch. trigger response slowness is ALSO because of the current drop. You're trying to create electromotive force...do work. Your switch (the trigger) closes just as fast, the current is built up, just as fast, but it is not as much current...less power produced (in heat or work). This doesn't only interfere with how fast the motor can be turned but also with how quickly friction and inertia can be overcome. Just like trying to take a bike from a flat stop to top speed without changing gears, takes more power to GET it moving than KEEP it moving. A temporary variable resistance.

Initially starting the system is harder--provides more resistance--than maintaining it in motion. A 9.6V battery, regardless of mAh, should have no difference in timing doing this. If you have a difference in the "C", there would be. But unless working with a battery that does have different limitations in current, this factor shouldn't arise. In your original example, it shouldn't arise in initial firings, or at any point where the discharge of capacity is equal (50% depleted, for example), but any time there is less depletion of one than the other, you're right, you'll see it.


And no, I don't believe batteries are perfect sources...theoretically they certainly should be, but real life, they can't be. Not until they come up with the "pocket battery that will run a small city". But equal is equal, all other factors identical. Imperfections match if you compare one thing to another that is equal in all but one respect, EXCEPTING in that respect.



Out of curiosity, what is your first language? You handle English quite well...better than I handle any other languages, by far.
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Lefse
post Feb 5 2013, 05:02 PM
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The reason why the smaller capacity ni-mh gives a lower ROF, is because most ni-mh batteries has a discharge rate of 10-15C, as far as I know, so the capacity will be the dominating factor determing the current output of the battery. If both ni-mh packs have a continuous discharge rate of 15C, meaning they have an internal resistance allowing a current of 15 times the capacity in Ah to be drawn from the battery continously. This means that a 1500mAh ni-mh pack will provide a maximum of 22,5 amps continuously, and a 3600mAh pack will provide 54 amps continuously, this explains the potential difference in ROF. Motor speed is affected by voltage, so it's my understanding that the drop in ROF is because the voltage drop makes the motor turn slower. If voltage didn't dictate motor speed, the motor would run at insane speeds with high discharge 7,4v li-po's, yet they keep spinning at moderate speed.

I don't have a degree in electronics, but I do have a high school level education in electrical theory. Electrical motors were an important aspect, and was focused on in several chapters in all the text books. There it was explained how the relation between motor windings and voltage determines the motor speed for DC motors, and the relation between the number of windings and the frequency of the alternating current in AC motors. It's not easy to explain exactly what I mean, I'm better at performing tech work than at explaining it.

My first language is Norwegian, we learn English in school from the first grade, and the Norwegian language is actually related to the English language and has many similarities. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything, I simply enjoy a good debate, and I'm trying to understand your theories and claims. A good debate can widen the intellect don't you agree?
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post Feb 5 2013, 05:48 PM
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Completely agreed, a good debate IS a mind expander. Always love to have one.

It depends on the nimh as to whether its C rating is standardized or not (usually it is not, otherwise, as you mentioned several posts above, you couldn't get equal burst OR consistent current figures. Without those, you run into serious issues), but you're correct, if the C rating is equal, the lower capacity battery provides less current--period, not temporarily. Since this is demonstrably untrue on circuits OUTSIDE the airsoft equipment schematics, using the same batteries, then the same goes for the same batteries when used In an airsoft rifle. Reason I'm so certain of this is, believe it or not, my blasted bicycle lights. They take the same batteries sold for airsoft guns with the "large connector" types, and the only differences I get from different capacity batteries (or from tests on the circuits, which I started doing after this conversation began) are in the duration of charge. Current through the system remains the same, initial, peak, and minimum current remain the same when placed in the blinking rear light.

But I suppose there are producers or differences between producers that result in different C ratings on their batteries. Thanks for a heads-up, it's something for me to watch in buying additional batteries.

I follow what you're saying about motor theory--completely familiar with it, both directions (customizing tape deck or reel-to-reel machines for computer storage, RC cars, all sorts of little buggery stuff. Plus repairing electronic toys for growing kids). Unless you go into serious technical language it's flat impossible to explain, isn't it?

Closest exposure I've ever had to Norwegian is Finnish, and I was absolutely miserable at learning any, because every blasted body spoke English, so I didn't end up in a situation where I had to speak it, just listen to others do so. Beautiful language though, and, I assume, very similar to Norwegian? My favorite "little bit, but nowhere near fluent" language is the cursing in Russian I've learned. Comes in really handy when dealing with construction problems, or argumentative automotive parts...much more satisfying than cursing in English.
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Lefse
post Feb 6 2013, 11:20 AM
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The thing with the C rating of the ni-mh batteries used for airsoft is that most brands have fairly similar specs on their batteries, most likely because most brands often use the same factories to produce their batteries. The ni-mh batteries commonly used for airsoft will typically have 10-15C discharge rate, so the simplest solution is to just calculate with an average C rating, like 12C, as this is close enough in most cases. The reason you only see a difference in duration of charge with bicycle lights is because they require relatively low current to operate. A heavily upgraded airsoft rifle can have as much as 100-150 amp initial drain and 30-50 amp continuous drain. This puts high demands on the battery, and the discharge capability of the battery can have a significant effect on the ROF, since a battery can't increase it's operational voltage to compensate for the lack of current.

If the motor tries to pull more power than the battery can provide, the motor won't be able to reach it's optimal RPM at the operational voltage of the battery, because the battery is then unable to maintain it's voltage, right?

Norwegian and Finnish are in two different language families btw, Norwegian is in the same language family as English, the Indo-European family, and Finnish is in the Uralic family. You can clearly hear and see this when comparing the languages, they have pretty much no similarities. Norwegian and English have fairly similar grammar, and many words are even spelled and pronounced similarly.
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post Feb 6 2013, 12:47 PM
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I follow what you're saying in airsoft applications, now. Still think it's not an entirely correct assessment of what impacts what the most, but considering the actual needs of the systems involved, I can see where users would automatically make connections between ratings that "shouldn't" be connected (and could be fixed pretty easily with a minor bit of manipulation...lol. Consider, for instance, a capacitor rig set up for the first instant of trigger pull? It would be simply a matter of installing a microswitch at the trigger just ahead of the main switch, and soldering two tiny pieces of electronic elements. As soon as the microswitch was released (as trigger clicked to normal circuit activation), it would kick back a huge amount of current (zero resistance in that first circuit bypass) without putting undue strain on the battery to get that initial draw on the voltage. Think I'd have to draw a wiring diagram to explain what I have in mind, but I think you might have the basic idea from the description).



From what you're saying on the language end, next time I make a trip to Europe, it sounds like I might need to do a train run through the Northlands, rather than across the central continent. Sounds like it would be instructional, as well as interesting.

Similarities with English aren't that surprising, though, considering where our language originates, and the history of that particular locale. You vikings liked to annoy the Brits fairly often, and enough of you stuck around to insert your language into ours, here and there <wink>.
Heck, a couple of our week day names were inherited from ya'll (wednesday-wotan's day, friday-frei's day), as well as a lot of other little things.

Got a bit of American military fiction you might get a kick out of, as the 2nd-5th books in the series involve purported remnants of the Varangian Guard, settled in the Georgian mountain valleys: John Ringo's "Paladin of Man" series, specifically "Kildar", "Choosers of the Slain", "Unto the Breach" and "A Deeper Blue" (I think there's a new one out, too). You might have to read the first one, "Ghost" to get the feel of what leads up to their involvement, if you decide to read them, at all.

As I said, never encountered Norwegian language, myself, sounds like I should have made the effort to do so, so I probably will go out of my way to, in the future. I do know your nation has one of the world's highest satisfaction indexes, a pretty stable economy, compared to the rest of us, and some STUNNING looking women wandering around (and not the typecast blondes that most Americans associate with the general area), and I've always loved what I've read from the old Norse mythos to the migration of tribes across Europe before and during Roman times, even the bits and pieces I pick up as part of my interest in military history...the more I learn and hear, the more I want to check it out firsthand!
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Lefse
post Feb 6 2013, 02:26 PM
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Capacitors are actually considered obsolete for airsoft use thanks to the latest generation li-po batteries. Capacitor banks were more common in earlier years, when high discharge li-po's weren't common. My latest battery purchase, a Turnigy A-spec 11,1v 65-130C 2200mAh li-po, should theoretically be able to put out around 3 kilowatts over short time periods, more than enough for the setup it's powering. A capacitor bank simply won't make any noticeable difference in this scenario. MOSFET circuits that have become more common the past few years have allowed us to use significantly stronger batteries, with less power loss, thus removing the need for capacitors.
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Ragamuffin
post Apr 22 2013, 08:34 PM
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I have a 10.8v G&P battery <AT>2300mAh

I bought it because of it's high power output and because it doesn't need to be discharged, but I've heard that it's good to discharge it 'occasionally'.

Is this true? If so, how often do you discharge these things?
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