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> Airsoft "G-hop", 77m shots while under 1J
MasKila
post Oct 8 2009, 03:50 PM
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Then I guess you guys are calling all the classic Airsoft guys with their LRB's, and very well documented 300 foot shots at field legal FPS, liars then, correct?

Come down to NJ some time and I'll have my friend pelt you with BB's at 275 feet at 60 RPS at well under 400 FPS.

This post has been edited by MasKila: Oct 8 2009, 03:50 PM
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Stealthmaster14
post Oct 8 2009, 06:42 PM
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I can engage a torso-sized target (I think it was 24 inches tall, 12 inches wide) from 170 feet fairly well while standing up, using my SRC G36K with G&G .25s. (I'm not very "steady" too) Haven't tested farther than that. Is it 9/10 time accuracy? No, but I can get a few shots in a row. If supported and I found the hop up sweet spot, I'm confident I could hit it about 5 times in a row. A burst of 3 has at least 1 round hit pretty much every time. (again me shaking comes into play quite a bit)

I don't think I'm over 400 fps, I'm guessing around 390 max.

This post has been edited by Stealthmaster14: Oct 8 2009, 06:48 PM


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yee245
post Oct 8 2009, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (OpSic66 @ Oct 8 2009, 04:00 PM) *
Define your idea of accurately. To me, I have to be able to hit an 11" target (roughly center mass size of a human). Getting a .20 BB @ 328fps to 175' accurately**, is not exactly easy.
Getting a .2 BB out to 175' at 328fps sure not a problem, seen it done. Getting it there accurately and with enough velocity for it to be felt. Now this is a completely different story. This is why I said 175' ain't gonna happen.
Also 410 fps is a markable large increase from 328fps.

I also plainly said that getting a BB out to 275 feet UNDER 400 Fps, is just not going to happen.



**I also claim "accurately" to be 9 out of 10 shots hitting said target. Not a "lucky" single shot.

I don't have an exact idea of what I believe "accurately" to be. In my post, I never defined "accurately," nor would I necessarily need to have, but I consider about 15% (3 hits out of about 20 shots) hits on an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper (the letter sized paper target I referred to) with iron sights at 200ft not to be it, but rather "relatively low accuracy" as I stated. In theory, 175' should get about the same results, if not better.

I only referred to my gun shooting 410fps, since it is only a bit over the 400fps you mentioned. While you were talking about 1J in post #19, post #30 is mainly what I was going off of. In the post I was replying to, you never clarified what is generally assumed, which is that the velocity is that as measured with a .20g BB. So, technically shooting with the .28g BB that I was shooting with at the time, it was shooting below 400fps. Also, in the post that I had quoted (#30), you were talking about a gun shooting under 400fps, not the 1J from post #19, so I believe my response was perfectly reasonably, especially since a 10fps decrease could probably be achieved by using a different chrono and/or a different (and smaller) .20g BB. The type that I had chronoed it with gave me 410fps was a 5.94mm average diameter BB in a 6.01mm barrel, so it could be possible that I drop down to 400fps or below by using something like an Excel bio BB, which has an average diameter of about 5.85mm.

I'm sorry that my definitions do not necessarily match yours, though I do have the same general idea of needing to be able to hit a person sized target, as my target was about that size if not smaller. I do admit I'm more of a chairsofter than a player, so my targets are not always people. I don't like it that now all of a sudden, the impact also needs to be felt, which was not mentioned in any of your posts so far in this thread, and that the BB has to be .20g, when in post #30, you said that it didn't matter the weight needed to get out to a given distance.


You said both 175' and 275'. Since I believe that it would be possible to get a BB out to 175' accurately (and I cite MarineSGT's video again), I made a post seeing if you really meant 275', which is what you had been talking about before. Basically, how I see it is that you said (Statement A) is true because of (Reason A) and that a completely different (Statement B) is true because of (Reason B), and I disagree with (Statement B) because of (Argument B), but you disagree with my (Argument B) because of (Statement A) and new (Specifications C). Getting a SGM out to 175' should yield your required accuracy at a properly adjusted 395fps gun, but getting a .20g BB out to 275' on 328fps is a completely different task, and not what I was arguing. If you change statements and add qualifications to the original statement, I guess I can't argue.
QUOTE (OpSic66 @ Oct 6 2009, 02:44 PM) *
I know from first hand experience, you ain't getting a .27 or .28 accuratly out to 275 feet, UNDER 400 Fps.

QUOTE (OpSic66 @ Oct 7 2009, 02:26 PM) *
I still stick to what I said. I know with first hand experience, that you are NOT getting a BB out past 175', accurately. Under 400Fps. No matter HOW heavy the BB is or how much hop it has.

I didn't see anything before (in this thread) about 175'. Anyway, since this argument is dumb and apparently due to a misunderstanding, I'll just stop it here.


Also, regarding physics not lying, I agree. The biggest problem is that most people don't have all the variables (or near enough) to make the correct calculation.
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YesOfficer
post Oct 8 2009, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (MasKila @ Oct 8 2009, 04:50 PM) *
Then I guess you guys are calling all the classic Airsoft guys with their LRB's, and very well documented 300 foot shots at field legal FPS, liars then, correct?

Come down to NJ some time and I'll have my friend pelt you with BB's at 275 feet at 60 RPS at well under 400 FPS.

what are these "LRB"s you speak of? And how come they don't produce them anymore if they shoot 100yards accurately?

and 60RPS? sorry but I gotta call BS


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Megabeast
post Oct 8 2009, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE (YesOfficer @ Oct 8 2009, 11:23 PM) *
and 60RPS? sorry but I gotta call BS


I was thinking the same thing but held my tongue. These are some pretty audacious claims. A 1J weapon that can shoot 60RPS with accuracy out to 275 feet.... please tell us what kind of weapon/build this is so we may all know what the greatest weapon ever created in the realm of Airsoft is. Can this weapon survive through an entire hi-cap without something failing? Is there something I'm missing here? Are you guys holding the gun up at a 30 degree angle or something?

This post has been edited by Megabeast: Oct 8 2009, 11:26 PM
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yee245
post Oct 8 2009, 11:36 PM
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My assumption is that they have some sort of magic associated with using classics. Since they don't have gearboxes and they were built decades ago and many still work, I'd imagine it is possible, since they don't have the same problems that we have making such high speeds using gearboxes.
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OpSic66
post Oct 8 2009, 11:48 PM
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I have a JAC classic M4. I'll be the FIRST one to call BS.


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Blackpig
post Oct 8 2009, 11:54 PM
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Ug...yes this is all feasible with the wonderful world of classic airsoft guns. For those who just started airsoft, let me explain as short as possible.

Back before the first AEGs, airsoft guns were similar to paintball markers, in that they ran off a external gas power source. By running off a external gas source, that means you can adjust the PSI which is kind of similar to increasing/decreasing outputs on batteries. Any who, that would mean that you can very easily adjust to 500 FPS to 300 FPS, 20 RPS to 60 RPS, in a couple of turns of an allen wrench. Heck, the fastest airsoft gun I've ever seen is 200 RPS.

"But Blackpig, what about the range?!?!?" To be honest, I'm not 100% sure so I'm not going to run my mouth. I will say that it is definitely possible and you can find your answer Visit My Website.

And the reason they went out of business is because AEGs are much cheaper. With classic guns, the air rig alone will run $100-$150 with the gun going up to $300 at least. Pair that up with the cost of refills and it's easy to see why AEGs have taken over the market.

Keep in mind also, not all classic guns had hop-up. The ones that did though, we're pretty amazing (just check out any Ashia support gun on Youtube). Man..I wish WatZ would jump in here.

This post has been edited by Blackpig: Oct 8 2009, 11:58 PM
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Adrian
post Oct 8 2009, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (YesOfficer @ Oct 9 2009, 04:23 PM) *
what are these "LRB"s you speak of? And how come they don't produce them anymore if they shoot 100yards accurately?

and 60RPS? sorry but I gotta call BS



LRB = long range barrel

they work by off setting the barrel to the bucking, IIRC they only work with BV guns.

see here
http://web.archive.org/web/20060313233135/.../hopup/hop4.htm


And as for hi rof with classics, all they have is a couple of springs some yube and o-rings, theres nothing really that goes wrong(looking at it from an AEG perspective) so you can just force more PSI into them

heres a GIF that shows how it works
http://web.archive.org/web/20060816081927/...t/images/bv.htm
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phantomwarrior
post Oct 9 2009, 12:30 AM
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To me, it looks like the g-hop tilts the barrel down, and over hops much like how an lrb works.

LRB's are offset barrels at the chamber and muzzle (sometimes).

Also, on classicairsoft.org, (I don't know who), but someone used an lrb in a nbb m16 (don't know off the top odf my head) gun so that means they don't have to be in bv guns, just the reciprocating barrel helped them a lot.

I think from the classic airsoft videos that I watch show shots overhopping at the end of their trajectory, proving my thoughts on the g-hop.


Here's the topic I was talking about:

http://www.classicairsoft.org/forum/viewto...ilit=long+range

This post has been edited by phantomwarrior: Oct 9 2009, 11:35 AM
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MasKila
post Oct 9 2009, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE (YesOfficer @ Oct 8 2009, 11:23 PM) *
what are these "LRB"s you speak of? And how come they don't produce them anymore if they shoot 100yards accurately?

and 60RPS? sorry but I gotta call BS


Many classics can do 60 RPS. They use a completely different system to shoot the BB than AEG's. Their BV system has one of the highest ROF you'll see.

For the 275' claim, it was actually 260 feet as I posted on page 1 of this topic, and WatZ's gun shoots about 60 RPS if I remember correctly (some ugly model of a Bushmaster). Each burst of full-auto, at under 400 FPS, hit me at 260 feet. I'm not saying every BB, but every burst scored a hit which should qualify for most as "accurate" (especailly for a full-auto gun at under 400 FPS).

For the 300' claims, go to the Classic Airsoft page Blackpig linked to and you'll see stories galore. And Blackpig, WatZ can't jump in here, they banned him. But he's alive and well in NJ, and just joined the team I'm on actually.
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Quizzor
post Oct 9 2009, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE
Many classics can do 60 RPS. They use a completely different system to shoot the BB than AEG's. Their BV system has one of the highest ROF you'll see.

For the 275' claim, it was actually 260 feet as I posted on page 1 of this topic, and WatZ's gun shoots about 60 RPS if I remember correctly (some ugly model of a Bushmaster). Each burst of full-auto, at under 400 FPS, hit me at 260 feet. I'm not saying every BB, but every burst scored a hit which should qualify for most as "accurate" (especailly for a full-auto gun at under 400 FPS).

For the 300' claims, go to the Classic Airsoft page Blackpig linked to and you'll see stories galore. And Blackpig, WatZ can't jump in here, they banned him. But he's alive and well in NJ, and just joined the team I'm on actually.

...then why the hell are we using electrics?
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vgamedude
post Oct 9 2009, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Quizzor @ Oct 9 2009, 05:27 PM) *
...then why the hell are we using electrics?

I have to ask this question aswell. a-confused.gif


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YesOfficer
post Oct 9 2009, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (MasKila @ Oct 9 2009, 11:41 AM) *
Many classics can do 60 RPS. They use a completely different system to shoot the BB than AEG's. Their BV system has one of the highest ROF you'll see.

For the 275' claim, it was actually 260 feet as I posted on page 1 of this topic, and WatZ's gun shoots about 60 RPS if I remember correctly (some ugly model of a Bushmaster). Each burst of full-auto, at under 400 FPS, hit me at 260 feet. I'm not saying every BB, but every burst scored a hit which should qualify for most as "accurate" (especailly for a full-auto gun at under 400 FPS).

For the 300' claims, go to the Classic Airsoft page Blackpig linked to and you'll see stories galore. And Blackpig, WatZ can't jump in here, they banned him. But he's alive and well in NJ, and just joined the team I'm on actually.

Oh damn, I didn't know Classics used an external gas system like a paintball marker. To be quite honest, I'm kinda glad AEG's put them out of business, a marker that shoots 60-100rps just isn't FUN to play against lol.

I'm still not quite understanding the concept of LRBs though, those diagrams weren't very clear.


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Stealthmaster14
post Oct 9 2009, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (YesOfficer @ Oct 9 2009, 06:02 PM) *
Oh damn, I didn't know Classics used an external gas system like a paintball marker. To be quite honest, I'm kinda glad AEG's put them out of business, a marker that shoots 60-100rps just isn't FUN to play against lol.

I'm still not quite understanding the concept of LRBs though, those diagrams weren't very clear.


Yeah, that would hurt like crap, especially considering dishonest players could "crank up" the fps of their guns after chronoing. And some people have lead fingers......


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phantomwarrior
post Oct 9 2009, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (YesOfficer @ Oct 9 2009, 06:02 PM) *
Oh damn, I didn't know Classics used an external gas system like a paintball marker. To be quite honest, I'm kinda glad AEG's put them out of business, a marker that shoots 60-100rps just isn't FUN to play against lol.

I'm still not quite understanding the concept of LRBs though, those diagrams weren't very clear.



The chamber end (where the bb's are fed into the barrel) is raised higher than the center line of the chamber. On an aeg, that would be above the centerline of the air nozzle.

The offset barrel has a loading ramp machined into it. I don't know anything about bb holding, but I think it's an o-ring at the opening of the barrel. Sometimes the muzzle end of the barrel is offset down even more.

So, when the bb is shot, it travels up the ramp with speed, into the roof of the barrel, and it gets backspin applied to it over the whole length of the barrel.
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YesOfficer
post Oct 10 2009, 06:54 AM
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oh ok, almost like a flatline barrel for Tippmann paintball guns, but less curved obviously.



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MasKila
post Oct 11 2009, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE (Quizzor @ Oct 9 2009, 05:27 PM) *
...then why the hell are we using electrics?

AEG's are cheaper and easier to use. My friends with classics go to games an hour before everybody else. They bring a box with about 7 different BB weights then spend an hour adjusting the pressure (for a field legal FPS) and trying different BB weights until they get the trajectory right. They have to use this because many (if not most, especially older) classics don't have hop-up built in. So they have to get a custom LRB made and installed. Instead of simply turning a dial to adjust the hop-up like in an AEG they have to use different weight BB's instead (or open up the gun, and I believe use different strength o-rings or springs or something like that).

Oh, and there's also the problem of having to have a heavy tank of gas on your back that can cost a lot to fill up, and a tube running from the gun to the backpack.
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Quizzor
post Oct 14 2009, 04:37 PM
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I still don't get this. Why aren't we using this LRB system with AEGs? It doesn't look like it would ONLY work with the BV system. It's just a tilted barrel. Why can't we have a hopup and a tilted barrel?

This post has been edited by Quizzor: Oct 14 2009, 04:45 PM
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aznriptide859
post Oct 14 2009, 07:55 PM
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Because you don't have the gas pressure of a GBB behind an AEG; the air pressure is fixed, which is why the hopup system was invented. You can't have both.


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