Airsoft snipers used to hold an enormous advantage in range over the AEG users, but with all of the popularity with aegs, and the new upgrades that are coming out for them, killing a sniper is basically, just find him, and spray. The range gap that we hold over AEGs, is slowley, but surely, closing.

There are no "new" airsoft snipers that have a significant breakthrough. The bulk of the attention of manufacturers is focused on cheap chinese clones, boasting high fps and bad parts. I think we are slowley being abandoned.

Some brave souls have realized this and have sought out ways to improve the preformance of their rifles; the most popular idea, now seems to be "Pill-shaped" ammo, and rifling. But there are those who do nothing but bash these ideas down to the ground, telling them it will never work.

This is not a discussion about this specific idea and it's advantages, and disadvantages. Please post accordingly

I see two options to our dilema (sp).

ONE: We select a small group of trusted people (or just one) on this forum, and donate funds to them so they may research the idea, of pill, or flathead ammo in snipers. We can't expect them to do it by themselves, and we have already established that big companies will not try to develope these any time soon. We just need to let them know that it will (or will not) work, then they might be encouraged to take the reigns.

TWO: We bombard presision bb makers to make a better heavy-weight bb. The only option out there now is straight/digicon, and the only reason we buy from them is because they are the only makers of bbs above .35 grams (excluding .88). And we all know that they really aren't that great. If we can get Maruzen or TM to make a heavy-weight bb line with the presision of their .29s and .3s, they would sell like hotcakes, and most likely cut our groupings in half, adding to our effective range, possibly making 300ft. shots a lot more common. And we would tell them not to coat their bbs w/ graphite.

This thread will contain no flaming, or bashing, consructive critasizm please.

And, this will not be a "lets talk about it thread. This is the thread where we start to do something. This is the thread where we organize ourselves into a community that does for themselves what was once done for them.

Who's with me!!!

Peace to all,
Chris

I agree with all of it. The only thing is that the pill shaped bb's will require custom mags to fit them into.

That is true, my friend, but that is a small point in the big picture. If we decide to give funds to a trusted person on the board, that will be his responsibility to take care of.
Thank you

Peace to all,
Chris

I have talked to both Killer Beez bb's and Tsunami bb's about making better heavy weight ammo, the problem is they just don't see the market, so if you want it bombard them with emails etc.. don't be annoying about it but just let them know they will sell.

Also the next step would be to allow bolt action sniper to move up in fps restriction but that is a liability as 600 fps is alot, and some snipers judgment of 100 feet is actually o I dunno 30 feet

Oh you have? Good.

Sorry, I didn't mean bombard, well maybe I did... hehe

Well, if we could get a collection of statements from various snipers (100+) saying that they would really want heay bbs, and mail it as a packet, big bussines would probably take it more seriously. If we were to do that, why not make it overwhelming by taking this idea to other forums like ASR? It would be a super-petition that no company would be foolish enough to ignore.

If you want better bbs, pm me a medium length statement telling that you want heavy bbs and why. Make it substatial. Once I have enough, I will email it out to Mauri or Maruzen. But please, keep posting!

This will happen people!!

PM sent

so as I suspected spartan wasnt just blowing smoke when he said snipers are beginning to be useless.

Actually I would disagree, the range is staying the same, no matter what a bb traveling at 400 fps will not have the range of a 550 fps rifle. The only difference is that the aegs like the m14 are more accurate at their max distance

PM sent

This post has been edited by majorpeaaches: Jul 4 2007, 10:20 PM

The magazine is among the smallest problems in my opinion. I have already developed a prototype magazine made of cheap plastic which does work quite well with "pill" shaped projectiles. It works very similar to a real magazine; such as with the two "walls" that hold the projectiles into place. In my research I have only found one, single problem: money.

Getting the money to machine metal, inject plastic molds and other such things is running quite steep, well over the budget I have set for this project. At this point, the only materials I can work with are plastic, this is because plastic is easy told form, mold and cut. I would prefer to use metal materials to be able to more reliably test the prototypes, however as I said before, money is a big limitation there.


Cheers, Graham.

I agree that technology is important however, skill and technique are the greatest assets of the sniper which has always been paramount and still is and will always be.



It's not a new developement. Any bolt action sniper has always accepted a certain "technological disadvantage" in terms of rate of fire.

It's easy to say "just find him, and spray" but that should be the most difficult thing to accomplish for the rifleman with an AEG.

Think of it like this; an upgraded sniper rifle depending could have a range of 200-300 feet. That means within that area of range, a person searching for a sniper will have to examine an area of 125,000 to 280,000 feet to find a six foot target within that snipers threat zone not to mention the greater (unless you play in a tiny, tiny field) area around that.

An AEG with enhanced range is and will always be impotent to a snipers stealth and awareness of his surroundings. That AEGs range is worth nothing so long as the sniper is properly camouflauged, properly still and silent and perhaps most importantly, knows when to take his shot. That is what sets him apart.

Perhaps you should think of ways to make snipers more stealthy as well. Though I support advancements in range and accuracy. I have a couple ideas but I don't know how they'd pan out.


No, he's still wrong and he alluded that snipers have always been useless, not beggining to. Admittedly, a sniper may not rack up kills but he probably won't rack up as many deaths either. And if you take the importance of a sniper in scenario games where scoring kills is not the primary objective then you can see the great utility of the sniper role. If I had to play "speedsofting" I'd cry, but I don't since I have some great folks that come up with decent scenarios which I think a greater source of fun in airsoft lays.

No serious airsoft player can doubt the usefullness of a well skilled and equipped sniper.

You have to realize there is a dramatic difference between what you use and how you use it. It makes a vast world of difference.



Why is that?

What technology is working for us. What is working against us. What do we want? How do we get it?

This post has been edited by The Mad Bomber: Jul 5 2007, 12:48 AM

The reason is just that the fact of with m14's and other AEG's with longer barrels becoming more popular it just feels like the gap is shrinking even though it really is not

So your saying that the m14 really isn't more accurate at maximum distances?

I think that there has to be a time when airsoft will change over again. It did once, remember classic airsoft guns. Isn't it possible that bullet shaped pellets will become the norm. It wouldn't be hard, after all, most of airsoft is going to midcap and lowcap mags. It would give more range, better accuracy, and much better ballistics.

B/c really, round bb's have almost as bad of ballistics as do semi-wadcutters.

Even if this is not a possibility for aeg's, it is a def. possibility for sniper rifles.

My dad, who is an avid long range shooter, asked the other day why we don't use better shaped bb's.

This post has been edited by bat21win: Jul 5 2007, 02:05 AM

Sometimes I wish I could use a downgraded air rifle. I know I'm not going to though.

I have seen a great intrest in both of the projects I stated above. So we will do both. I will soon be handing the reigns over Graham Abrahm in terms of research and development of pill-bbs.

I will continue to take PMs.

A note on the pms: Write them as if you were writing them to a company, not me. And describe why you want PRESISION heavy bbs and why you think there is a market for them. These points will make the company more willing to produce. Also say that you would definitly buy them. (if you would buy them.. don't lie )

And also, please follow this format.

Why you want presision heavy bbs here ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- about a paragraph or so.. make it supstantial.

-Your name

Thank you for all the enthusiasm you guys have shown so far. I really appreciate it.

Spread the word, I need at least 75 pms before I send!

Eh, no one likes the Maruzen SGM .29's?
My Tanaka loves em, but well Tanaka likes the lighterish bb's...

We do. What we mean is bbs .30 AND UP with the quality and presision of .29s and tm .30s

Peace to all,
Chris

I don't know much about physics but wont pill shaped projectiles hurt more then just a BB?
Also, how is a pill-shaped projectile supposed to stay in the air as long as a well-hopped BB?

This post has been edited by Phobia3472: Jul 5 2007, 11:39 AM

Well, let's see, the same way bullets have always done it.

yes but along with the rifling of the barrel or some rifling-type invention for an airsoft sniper rifle will further the travel of a pill-shaped BB and in turn will be more effective and you will have no need for hop-up

I believe that the barrel is not the object to be rifled. I think the bb should be rifled, or shaped in some way that it spins the way a bullet does.

Also, I need a lot more PMs guys. 6 isn't going to convince someone to produce a better bb.

I was kinda reading through and thought...if we made rifled barrels and more bullet shaped bbs, wouldn't it be getting a little too close to a REAL gun. I know airsofters would love it but the general public might just crucify airsoft even more than before, and if you want snipers to get all these upgrades, then why wouldn't some bright company put rifled barrels into an aeg, with more ammo, firepower, and the same range and accuracy, an aeg could easily compete, but w/e, that's just my opinion

Perhaps a combination of both would work best, for example; a rifled barrel with four grooves, and on the projectile, four smooth small convex "lumps". Of course then you have the problem of alignment, getting the "lumps" into the grooves. This would require an over complicated funnel system.

Rifling won't do much other than reduce power in an airsoft gun by letting air pass the projectile. Currently I am working on a design with would consist of 2-4 grooves filled with rubber to be flush with the inside of the barrel; hypothetically, this will work, though it will be very difficult to put into a prototype.


No, first of all, these "bullet shaped BB's" would look nothing like a real 'bullet' you would see in a real firearm. This is because in real firearms, the bullets are attached to large brass casings, and consist of primers and gun powder. Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if the debate of these new designed BB's being too real would stop to prevent more people from thinking that they are too real.


Also, everyone PM me suggestion on what to call this pill shaped BB, something serious, no funny stuff.

Another note: Anybody got ideas for a cheap airsoft replica to do some simple testing of the projectiles? Under 30 bucks? PM me.


Cheers, Graham.

This post has been edited by Graham Abram: Jul 5 2007, 03:06 PM

I just have to say that this is a very interesting and innovative idea.

Just think of it: a pill shaped BB can easily be double the weight of any other BB. At the minimum, a pill shaped BB can be 2 .12s (.24) and possibly upwards to .6 or more.

Also, as for the barrel, maybe testing of the pill BBs can be tested with TK twist barrels. Then, we can even try to improve on the design or even make a twist/rifled barrel of our own.

As for me, I'm planning my own idea, but I'm working with GBBs. I might have to try it on spring rifles if it works. I'll fill everyone in on details after I do some tests...

you're right about the bullet but still, I would like to know if this is just for sniper rifles, what is to stop aeg companies from making these for their guns, but stil I do like the idea, good luck with the work, and maybe a utg shotty, durable and consistent

Ok, well I'm here to spread what I think is a little rational thinking here. Ok, first off, companies couldn't care less about us as customers, as long as we buy from them they're happy. Companies will only do something new (usually) if people will stop buying from them. So if a lot of people will stop buying TMs (unlikely) they might start making pill shaped BBs. But ok, seriously, pill shaped BBs? New bottle loaders, speed loaders, etc would need to be made for them. Your "baby" (your rifle) would need to be replaced for pill shaped BB compatible guns, or at minimum you would need to convince companies to make pill shaped BB hop-ups and feeding chambers, which is also unlikely, and then buy them and put them in your guns. Now I have nothing against snipers, I think they're very valuable on the field, but I think this whole thing is BS...that's just my opinion, maybe your right about this, maybe your not, who knows.

An upgraded sniper rifle with a skilled marksman can make 300 ft shots, AEGs 200 at most. Now maybe in the future that gap will tighten, but maybe not. A much more rational thing to do is perhaps get companies to make stronger and better upgrades so maybe you can get up to 350 ft. But seriously guys, BBs can only go so far, there is a little thing on this world I like to call gravity, and it has a good friend named physics. Some things are just out of are reach. Now please don't flame me, I'm just expressing my thoughts on this whole opinion.

I think the reality is that pill shaped bb's while fine in concept are very difficult to practically adapt. With new high quality heavy weight ammo which I think should be .36-.38 bb's we will start seeing better results from long range shooting. However, really it would be much easier to change field limits then it would be to create a new bb for the industry.

To existing guns yes, but a new design would be well worth the time and money spent performance wise.

I'd actually love to try these with my race pistols, as they're in need of some extra heavy BBs. However, for sniper rifles, just a quick question if you don't mind:
How would hop up work?
Would be something like The Boss's Patriot from MGS3, where the bullets would rotate along the vertical axis? 'Cause that would be pretty sweet (ineffective, but still awesome).

As for rifling, I always thought that was for accuracy, instead of range...

This post has been edited by sachiel9051: Jul 5 2007, 08:50 PM

with pill-shaped BB's there would be no need for hop up because :
1)the barrel is not large enough to accomodate the forward/backward spin on a pill-shape
2)it would be hard to send a foreword/backward spinning pill-shape BB down range would it not?

I would think so, but some heavier bullets benefit from different rates of twist, so it may affect range somewhat.

I think that rifling most helps the stability of the bullet. Some M4 barrels are designed w/ low rates of twist to make the bullets less stable so that it will tumble when it hits the target.

Hmm, so a twisted pill shaped BB will need to be shot at a higher velocity than a standard BB to achieve the same range as hop up? Eh, I guess it's worth it for the extra accuracy. Unless of course, the BB is dart shaped with a rounded tip for improved aerodynamics and safety...

Either way, sounds pretty cool.

Ok, I've been reading a lot about this pill shaped bb idea, and this is just my opinion. With a pill shaped bb there would be no way you could have any kind of hop-up. To counter this a lot of people are saying that rifling a barrel would make up for no hop-up. Now, I could be wrong, but im pretty sure that the backspin put on the bb creates lift, wich gives the bb its range. A pill shaped bb would not have this lift so the range would decrease. To make up for that people would need to upgrade their rifles to shoot at a much higher velocity, which would be costly and possibly dangerous. I'm totally convinced that with a high-grade, heavy-weight bb, a tightbore, and some good old fashioned skill, an airsoft sniper need not worry about AEGs. That's just my opinion though, and if I was wrong about anything let me know.


Happy sniping,
Jacob

You guys are misunderstanding this just a little bit.

Graham is working on r&d for pills, and I, am working on creating a petition to convince TM ot Maruzen to make SPHERICAL bbs that are heavier than .30 but have the quality of tm .30 superior grades or .29 SGMs. Becuase straight/digicon bbs are heavy, but are slightly lacking in quality and presision.

Your ideas for the pills are greatly appreciated, but try to keep it positive. This thread is not for the discussion of r&d of the pills. I think that Graham should open a thread for that I he sees it fit.

Peace to all,
Chris

This post has been edited by Christafuarion: Jul 5 2007, 09:26 PM

If they can make air rifles that shoot at 1200 fps, then surely they can make stock airsoft guns that shoot at 600 or 700 fps. With that you can use at least .45 ammo.

Srry, I saw a lot of talk about pill bbs and thought I'd post my opinion. I totally agree with you on the heavier high-end bbs. I'm workin on a PM as we speak.

No, you're fine, you posted only seconds before me. And keep the PMs coming guys! We really need them

Chris emailing maruzen or tm will not do anything at all, you need to be emailing the third party bb makers.

Killer Beez BB's
Tsunami BB's

companies that are smaller would be far more likely to make a move, because they have already thought about it but decided the market was not large enough. Our goal is just to show them there is a market.

I thought about that before, but the goal is to make bbs of the ultimate presision, and according to www.airsoftmechanics.com , tsunami is a terrible bb maker.

Also to be noted, tm .20 bbs are crap (comparitivly) but they make an EXCELLENT .30

We can send the petition to as many people as we want, and whoever we want. We just need statements from you guys, then we can decide on the finer points of the matter

Peace to all,
Chris