Don't neglect your ammo.

If you check the data, heavier BBs always do better. People often upgrade with fps and barrels in their minds, ammo is the last thing they would buy. Faster speed alone will get you more air resistance. That's all. Faster muzzle speed does not necessarily get you accuracy nor range. But what faster muzzle speed allows you to do is, to use heavier BBs. No matter how long, and how tight your barrel is, your airsoft rifle is as good as the BB it shoots. If you want accuracy and range, don't forget to buy some excellent BBs.

It's a misconcention to think that heavy BBs have less range. Heavier ones have more range, unless you are using 0.43g on stock spring (then it's too heavy).

If you have stock rifle, and have been using 0.2g BBs, just get yourself a bag of decent 0.25g.

If your rifle has at least 120 spring, you can use 0.28g or even 0.3g BBs. Use them.

If you have a heavily upgraded rifle, and still using 0.25g, that's as good as not having upgraded.


Most of the people who have been tinkering around with their rifles, already know how important ammo is for a sniper. But for those who are starting out, I would like to remind them without good BBs, sniper rifles just don't work good. If you have no ammo, sniper rifle is useless. By the same token, if you are using light weight, poor quality BBs, your sniper rifle cannot function properly, no matter how much you spent to upgrade it. Please do not forget to get heaviest weight BBs your rifle can handle.

For me, I don't consider anything lighter than 0.29g a sniper rifle's ammo.

TM 0.3g is top notch, So is Maruzen Super Grandmaster 0.29g. SiiS 0.3g is fine, so is their 0.33gs.
Maxi 0.3g is fine too. Some said that KSC perfect 0.3g is good too, but I have not tried it.

Straight 0.36g and 0.43g BBs do not have excellent surface finish, and there are some deformed ones, so you will have to inspect them one by one. If you weed out, they are good. But to push out 0.36g, you will need at least 150 or 170 spring. For 0.43g, you will need 170 or 190 spring.

What specific brand and weight would you reccomend for a AtoZ Dragunov SVD at about 550 fps?

Nice rifle you have.

I would use 0.36 or even 0.43. Those are made by Digicon/Straight. They are very expensive and their surface finish is not so good. You would need to inspect the BBs and select good ones, if you want your shots to count. If you don't want to do that, get SiiS 0.33g. These are a bit oily, so you need to rub oil off. Otherwise, it would start spinning and curve after 100 feet or so. At bare minimum, I would use TM 0.3g BBs.



Edit: Oil on SiiS BBs can be washed away in detergent water, listerine. BBs work best when they are bone-dry.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: May 29 2007, 10:04 PM

Didnt you write this before or did I predict the future. LOL Sitcky!!!
So I hear so much about the Tokyo Marui .3's. I think im going to pick some up. Are they just called Tokyo Marui ,3's or is it something else? Thanks

Is this them... From WGC


This post has been edited by test dummy: Mar 9 2007, 03:05 PM

Yes, That's it.

The legendary Marui 0.3g that's made with ball bearing manufacturing process--whatever that means.

hey I just have a m324 with the teflon so what would you suggest for that? (400fps) Also, if I got the tighbore then what bbs would I want? (450fps)

Thanks a lot.

(Ball bearing are perfectly cylindrical, since they are used to reduce friction, so if you made bb's with that proccess they would have to be near perfect.......wow I just realized why they are so good without buying them)

I think you mean perfectly spherical, but point me out as a fool if I'm wrong. Anyway- for lower end rifles, like the m324, something like a relatively-good quality .25, and with mods, a "tm .30", are definitely universally recommended?

wow...usually I have a good choice in words

well thanks a lot

If it is around 400fps, I would use 0.28g, 0.29g, or even 0.3g. Killer Beez sell 0.28g BBs. I have not used them so I don't know how good their 0.28g is though. Maruzen Super Grandmaster 0.29g is very expensive, but one of the best. TM is best in 0.3g class. Considering how expensive Maruzen SGM and TM 0.3g is, Killerbeez 0.28g might be perfect, if the quality is okay ($22 for 4000 rounds+ shipping). [Disclaimer: I have no idea about the quality of Killer Beez-I just think it's a welcome addition if their quality is decent] KSC 0.3g should be okay too, but I have not used this one either.

I don't think tightbore alone would raise the muzzle speed 50fps. Maybe like 20. 450fps would be nice speed for 0.3g and 0.33g.

Yes, This is true for sure because yesterday I was shooting my ca mp5a4 with .12 to see what it would do and of course the bbs went all over the place but not only that the .20 went a good 50ft farther then the.12 did.

Just want to note something:

The .36s have (very) imperfect finishes, but there are no such deformations on the .43s from Straight (at least not in the last 3 bags I have used).

That's good news.

But is there 0.43g BBs that's not covered in graphite?

Not that I know of. But the graphite is just for lubrication (however crude it may be). Consider it a "colored" version (I don't mean anything racially here) of silicon lube that you find on white bbs.

I know you guys already said a M324 with the teflon mod should use .29's or whatever, but what about if our M324 is stock? Would I rather opt for a .25? I have a feeling that if I used .29 or .30 in it, it would really be down on FPS. Correct if I am wrong, naturally.

Don't worry about fps. It's a useful measurement when you are buying a rifle or upgrading it. But once you have it, you can't do anything about it. Just get a dozen heavy BBs from your sniper friends, and see how they fly. Every BB curves down eventually, but if it curves down too much for you to compensate even with a full hop, it's too heavy for your rifle.

0.2g fired at 280fps sounds better than 0.25g fired at 250 fps, right? But in about 60 feet, 0.2g would lose 110fps, and go down to 170fps. 0.25g would lose only 77fps, and down to 173fps. At 60feet mark, 0.25g is going faster than 0.2g because lighter 0.2g loses so much speed right out of the muzzle. Which is why I am saying, not to worry about fps, because faster muzzle speed by using lighter BBs would be lost immediately.

My guess would be that M324 could use at least 0.28g BBs, but try 0.25g, 0.28g and 0.3g. Of course 0.3g would be most accurate, but it might curve down too much at full hop for your to compensate effectively in the field. If so, use 0.28g. If that's curving down too much, --I would not think so--, then you have to use 0.25g. But even stock AEGs with 280fps can use 0.25g BBs effectively, so if M324 can do close to 400fps, it should be able to use 0.3g.

Ok, I got a couple of questions.

1) Von Luck what is your favorite bb that you use in your rifle?
2) Right now I am shooting Maxi 0.3 but I am going to a game that Georgia Airsoft is sponsoring and they sell the TM 0.3 and some Maruzen 0.3 (1800 rounds) I know you said the Maruzen Super Grandmaster 0.29 was good but what about these? If the Maruzen are good I would probably want to get those because I get 1300 more bb's for the same price.

1) I like TM 0.3g best, for now. I am planning on testing SiiS 0.33g and Straight 0.36g when things get warmer.

2) I don't know anything about Maruzen 0.3g. KSC Perfect 0.3g has 2200 rounds for about the same price. I meant to get a bag of KSC, but I haven't gotten around to do it. If you get either Maruzen 0.3g or KSC 0.3g, let us know how they compare with Maxi. I would be interested to know.

Should I use the .43 on my Maruzen shooting 500 fps? I was using some .28 that I had laying around and I was getting a distanced shot at about 155 feet, yet the hop -up was adjusted higher and I can't even see the bb through the scope when I shoot. Also, whould it be wise to wash off the graphite so it doesn't mess up the hop up and barrel? What brand makes the best .43?

strange, I never really thought about the weight of the bb before...

Got any recommendations for a Tanaka A.I.C.S. at 600 fps with .2s? I need it to be biodegradable...
EDiT:
It's to use as a target rifle, not to shoot people.

This post has been edited by sachiel9051: Mar 22 2007, 11:31 AM

I haven't used 0.43g, so I'm not the one to answer your question. I just put in 170 spring, so I think I'll try 0.43g in the future though. If I can do less than 5 inches at 100 feet with 0.3g, you can tag a man with 0.28g at 155feet. But I would think that 0.28g's limit on reliable range is just about that. 150 feet. I think you can get better accuracy at long ranges by using 0.36g.

0.43g sounds a bit heavy for 500fps, but TM recommends 0.3g for their stock VSR and PSG-1. Can you imagine how that would be? It would be like shooting a howitzer. 0.3g BB making a big curved line to 100 feet. You would probably feel somewhat like that using 0.43g. But if you set your target at 150 feet, or 200 feet, you should get better results with 0.43g. So it's your preference.

Straight/Digicon makes 0.36g, and 0.43g. But frankly, I wish other companies would jump in and make them cheaper. Many people do not like graphite, I wish I could test them out using washed ones and unwashed ones, even at the risk of having to clean the internals. I'm just curious why Digicon would bother using graphite. I'm sure many Japanese airsofters would complain about it, if graphite was all bad. Also But I've been waiting for spring to test SiiS 0.33g and Straight/Digicon 0.36g. I'll test them and see how they do.





That's the problem I have. Mine doesn't shoot as fast as 600fps, but the heaviest Bio BBs I have found is only 0.25gs. Maybe the Bio BB makers thought since AEGs waste a lot of BBs, it would be better to invest in bio BBs for AEGs. Even for 400fps rifle, 0.25g is not heavy enough. If you find any heavy bio BBs, please let me know.

600fps could definately use 0.43g BBs. You would waste a lot of that muzzle energy if you don't use heavier BBs. My guess is that 0.25g could lose half the speed in 60-80 feet. If my guess is true, your rifle is as good as a 300fps rifle shot 60-80 feet closer. To get most out of your otherwise awsome rifle, you'll have to use 0.43g, which is not bio-degradable.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Mar 22 2007, 11:31 AM

Cheers for that. I wish there was a way for me to +1 your rep :-/

The consistency of KSC .30s is really bad...

I need to try TM .30s...

Or are Straight .30s better?

Hmmm...consistency of KSC 0.3g is bad...I wonder how bad it would be.

Do you know if it's better than TM or KSC's 0.25g?

I haven't tried KSC, you haven't tried TM. I'll eventually get some KSC and test them out.

Considering how bad their 0.36g's finish is, I wouldn't think that Straight 0.3 is good.

I use ONLY KSC .3g and they are almost identical in quality to the TM .3g. Never found a deformation.

I just have some more questions on bbs that have been bothering me for some time:

1) what brand makes the best bbs

2) were would I buy .36 bbs for the cheapest price

3) Can you put a list of fps and the bb you would use with that fps

4)Have you ever heard of people coloring their bbs so that their shots arn't seen

5) Would it be good to spry silicone oil into your bag of bbs to lubericate them

I think .36 at 500 fps would be good but I was also wondering could you effectivly use heaver bbs and then use your hop-up (all the way up) to arch the bb up and give you more range and get it accurate at 250+ feet.

Thanks for the help.

1) I like TM's BBs best. a) Their surface finish is excellent on 0.3g and also 0.25g. b) Their BBs are hard, unlike Maxi 0.25g BBs which are very soft. c) As far as I know, they are the first and only company that uses "ball bearing manufacturing process." Whatever that means, it seems to work.

2) I don't know. They all seem to be about over $20 per bag of 1000 BBs.

3) Joules would be better, but it depends. I think 1.5 Joules, (400fps w/ 0.2g) can use 0.3g effectively within about 150-180 feet. For 2 Joules (460fps), 0.33g should work fine. For over 2.3 Joules, (500fps), 0.36g. For 2.8 Joules (550fps), 0.43 could work. Of course, you can use 0.12g on 2.8 Joule rifle, but why would you do that? If you don't use heaviest projectiles possible, you don't get the accuracy and range you can get.

TM 0.3g is used on 0.7 Joule stock rifles. TM's 0.3g is deadly accurate at around 20m with the stock spring. Of course 20m is only 65 feet. If 0.3g can be used on 280fps rifle, 500fps rifle can use 0.43g (might be a tad too heavy though). As you said, you have to make the rifle shoot up, and have it arch down onto your target at zeroed point. You can zero it at 150 feet or even 200 feet. Because it will shoot up, at around half point, you have to aim low. Beyond 150 or 200 zero point, you have to aim high. That's what people do with real steel rifles, there is no reason why BB shouldn't be able to do that. No gun shoots laser straight. Every projectile goes up and arches down, unless it's got wings.

4) I have heard of people using black BBs. Even if 0.43g BB is fired at 400fps, after 200 feet, it should be slowed down to about 100-200fps. At that speed, BBs can be seen easily. That could show the direction of the sniper. On top of that, at 100fps, if you see it coming at your direction about 100feet before, you can even duck. Which is why some people would prefer their BB to be black.

5) Spraying silicone oil into the bag is a no-no. At least in my experience. SiiS BBs are very oily. SiiS BBs shot directly from the bag, would go straight for about 100 feet, and it would curve sideways. But if you rub oil off, it would go straight.

That much oil doesn't seem to do any good. Also in TM manuals, it says that after spraying silicone into the barrel, shots would go all over the place for 100 rounds or so. Silicone oil is necessary in the barrel, but very small amount is needed. Spraying silicone oil into the bag is just way too much oil. TM 0.3g, 0.25g and Maruzen Super Grandmaster 0.29g BBs are bone-dry.

Is Marui still making .3s? I can't find them in stock anymore.

Ebay's ehobby Asia sells them.


Item number: 270103291958

That one's got only 30 minutes left, but I'm sure they will put it up again.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Mar 31 2007, 01:21 PM

Thanks. I'll get some within the next few weeks and compare the groupings to KSC .3s.

I use different BB weight for different spring rating

Low FPS - .25, .3
High FPS - .36, .43

.36 & .43? Aren't those 8mm weights?

Both are 6mm BBs.

I was just wondering what color the Digicon .36/.43's are after you wash the graphite off, anyone know?

grey

ya, I think they are coated in teflon or something...

the .43gm BBs have teflon coating. I guess they havethe teflon to have smooth travel along the inner barrel

Wait, 0.43g BBs have teflon underneath the graphite coating?

I have not heard that before.

It probably means that they use rill plates to smooth out their bbs.

learn more about ball bearings here. http://www.howstuffworks.com/question513.htm

Now we know... And knowing is half the battle!

Is Strait a good brand of bb?

how do airsoft elite bbs rank? I recently got a .28 bag and they all look smooth.

"Good" is rather vague.

Straight is good in the sense that it offers heaviest weight BBs. They are Bad in the sense that their BBs have one of the worst consistency when it comes to diameter measurements. Measuring 10 rounds, Straight 0.43g BB's diameter measurements are from 5.869mm to 5.979mm, a whopping 0.110mm. Compare that with Maruzen Super Grandmaster 0.29g's 5.938mm to 5.944m, a mere 0.006mm. Straight BBs are 18 times irregular than Maruzen Super Grandmaster. In other words, some of Straight's BBs are big, some BBs are small. That would cause greater fps variations. Also their surface finish is bad. Which means that it will have more variations, wider groupings.

However, heavy weight does make up for some of these negative effects. Even 0.01g more would help a lot. Straight 0.36g BBs are 0.07g heavier than Maruzen SGM. Their 0.43g is 0.14g heavier. That's huge. In other words, it's like having a bad aerodynamic design, but making up for it by sheer weight. If you weed out irregular ones by inspecting one by one, you will improve your chances. If it's Straight 0.36g, I would rather go with SiiS 0.33g BBs, but it's a close call. SiiS 0.33g's variation is only 0.015mm, not the best, but still very tight. I suspect that Straight 0.36g's variation is also about 0.110mm, one of the worst consistency, but 0.03g heavier. It's a close call. I don't know which produce tighter groupings.

When it comes to 0.43 super heavy grade, I suspect that despite irregularities, Straight 0.43g would work better, because of the extra mass.

AE is a good brand, in that their 0.2g BBs have consistent diameter, and their grouping is on the tighter side. I have no idea how good their 0.28g BBs are, if their 0.28g BBs are as good as their 0.2g BBs, their BBs should be good.

Thanks! so then from reading this I think I should get the strait .36 becuse I would rather have tighter groupings and picking out the bbs is not all that bad. And so then you agree that with my 525 fps I should use strait .36, is that what you would do? Or is there another bb such as the SiiS that you think would be better. It seems like such a close call I don't know, I think I want to save money and go with the cheaper bbs yet I also want to have a good grouping, and not have to pick out the bbs, and get the right bb right off the bat without wating 20 bucks for some bbs that don't work. What do you thingk?

I'm shooting KJW M700 w/ red gas. FPS is unknown, but have heard rumors >500fps (unconfirmed). Would I be better choosing a heavier BB, like Siis or Maxi at .33-.36, or a better quality, like TM or Maruzen at .29-.30?

Are the Maxi bbs anygood? I'm having trouble finding TM .3gs.

I would give a couple a try, if yours goes above 500fps, I would go go with 0.33g or 0.36g. 0.3g seems a bit light for 500fps. But it's your preference.

If you get 0.36g, weed out odd balls. If you get SiiS 0.33g, just get rid of oil [w/detergents, listerine, etc, etc].

TM 0.3g and Maruzen SGM 0.29g is nice in that you don't have to do anything, except that they are little on the light side for your rifle.




Maxi is good. If you can't find TM or Maruzen, Maxi is the next best thing. Maxi is not top of the line BBs, but fairly good.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Jun 5 2007, 10:27 AM

Earlier someone said they needed the heaviest BBs possible that are biodegradable. He seemed quick to add only for targets not for shooting people why is this?

I use .23 because I detect too much range loss with .25

Right now I'm using a USR-11 upgraded to 510fps and thinking about using the SiiS .33's after seeing they where the heaviest with still fair variations in diameter and rubbing the oil off seems to be nothing compared to slowly picking through the .36s and .43s.

One thing I can't seem to find much about is good sites from which to buy them from. Any suggestions?

Only Dentrinity seems to have it in stock as of today, May 29, 2007.
http://www.dentrinityshop.com/pr_list.jsp?...BBT&bid=BBS

WGC is out of them. So is Red Wolf and E-hobby Asia (ebay).


If you get them, wash them with detergent water, listerine, whatever that can get the oil off.

Bit of oil in the barrel can't be helped, but BBs work best when they are bone dry.

I saw some .25 toytec bb's that im going to order with my m6 and their only 10 bucks, dose anyone know if toytec bb's are good quality. because if not ill just order some TM bb's

According to CaptainPlastic, Toytec 0.25g is way better than Excel 0.25g.
Then again Excel seems to be one of the worst BBs around.


In 0.25g weights, Maxi 0.25g and KSC Perfect 0.25g are best. Second best would be Toytec 0.25g and TM .25g.



Of course, all these cannot match the consistency of Maruzen Super Grandmaster 0.29g.

AE's are good. I swear by those and PHX for my 0.28s

I have a USR-11 that I am unsure of the muzzle velocity of. It has a laylax 150Sp spring, Laylax red aluminum piston, ball bearing spring guide, barrel spacers, and upgraded sears. I'm guessing it shoots somewhere around 500-530fps w/ crosman .2g bbs (which I currently play with because they are easy to stel from my aeg-using friends) and the range is decent, but they start to veer off at a range just exceeding that of my friend's aegs, so I can still hit them before they can hit me, which pisses them off. What I want to know is what brand and weight of bb I should get so I can really piss off my friends. I know my gun has a lot more range that I am not tapping into with my current ammo, and was thinking about getting the Straight .36', because I don't mind cheching out my ammo, because unlike the trigger-happy aeg users making up the rest of my team, I shoot maybe 50-100 rounds in an entire day.

as a side note, I would rather not hear people responding to my post by bashing the usr-11, as I don't care that a marui or an APS2 might be better (although I do like the look of the L96). I like my USR, and besides, most of the internals are laylax parts anyways.


I should edit my signiture, my gun shoots way harder than the 450 fps it did when I made that sig.

This post has been edited by phate: Jun 17 2007, 11:28 PM

A 150 sp spring will give you about 500 FPS. And by the way, you might as well have it stock if your using .2g bbs. All the upgrades in the world won't help you if you've still got .2g bbs shooting out of your gun. Get some .3g KSC bbs. They cost about $10, You'll find your accuracy is ALOT better and your range will be better as well.

Hey what kind of ammo would u recomend for a TM vsr-10 g-spec thats shootinng 350 fps? I was looking at getting the PHX .28's because I don't have it shooting as hard as other peeps at only 350.

This post has been edited by Knox: Jun 20 2007, 02:24 PM

Maybe you should get some AE .25s 350 is low for a sniper rifle and with a .28 or .3 your going to lose alot of fps. With a .28 I would guess that the fps of the bb will be around 310 but it will travel slightly further then a lighter bb so its up to you.

I would say get the .28s. But .25s will work fine too. As soon as you hit 400 FPS your going to want .28-.30.

What bb should I use for around 800 fps?

LOL. Well your only option is Degicon .45g bbs. What kind of gun do you have?

Ok, I read through here, and alot of the time you guys refer to stock rifles, and lightly modified, ect. But it seems that to you guys "Stock" is a VSR-10 shooting 300FPS. I realize that FPS doesnt matter, and all that but in this situation it kind of does. My rifle is shooting around 425 FPS with .2GBB's. Im currently using .25GBB's, but I havent really set-up the hop-up yet, so before I go and do that. What weight BB's should I be using that will optimaize my rifle for the best accuracy and range?

This post has been edited by cjennings: Jun 24 2007, 09:09 PM

0.25g is probably too light.

0.28g, 0.29g, 0.30g, or even 0.33g could work.

Hey I was just looking around and how come the .3G BB;s are such a HUGE jump in price. everywhere I look 800.3Gbb;s sell for atleast $2 MORE then 3000 .25. Or am I just lloking in the wrong places?If I could get .29G BB's in the same price range as .25's Im willing to sacrifice .01G's to save myself the more then $50 price difference.

I am custom modding my maruzen APS type 96 to shoot 700 to 900 fps, So then what bb can I use? And Would having a 6.01mm 800mm long inner barrel with 750 fps creat a vacume effect so should I get a vacume piston?

I would say definitely on the vacuum piston. And yeah you'll have to use the highest weight degicon bbs you can find( I believe its .45g).

What type of ammo would you guys recommend to use in a JG Bar-10 Rifle when everything is stock? (except for the electrical tape on the cylinder)

From about 0.29g, quality jumps up.

If you pick out 100 BBs out of a bag of Maruzen Super Grandmaster, you will find that more than 90% of them are within +/- 0.01mm and +/- 0.01g range.

Some of the 0.25gs have as low as 60% staying in that range. Some deviate as much as +/- 0.04mm and +/- 0.04g.

That's the price difference. If you don't snipe, and but if you want your shots to fly farther, just go with KSC 0.3g. Their quality is not as good as Maruzen Super Grandmaster, but will do better than 0.25gs.



That's another copy of VSR-10, right?

I would go with either 0.25g or 0.28g.




It's a bit off the subject, but I would doubt the wisdom of such upgrade. At 700-900fps, you are talking about 7.5 joule, home-made weapon. You can't shoot at anybody at 250-300 feet. By that distance, no matter how tight and how long your barrel is, it won't be that accurate. Not with BBs in the market. To be accurate at that distance, you'll have to use heavier BBs. More than 0.43g is dangerous. Only 0.88g steel bearing is available, and that's as heavy as .22 cal real steel bullet. Haven't you seen a clip of what steel bearings can do? It goes through an inch thick glass TV screen. No human skull is as strong as an inch thick glass. Hit a person with that, you are looking at reckless endangerment, battery, manslaughter or even murder.

You aimed at a guy at 300feet, but you didn't notice a guy hidden behind a bush at 150 feet. When you fired, he stood up, getting hit behind his ear. The steel BB digs into his mid-brain, before he hits ground, he's already dead. Sure you didn't intend to hit him. But was it deadly between muzzle and 250 feet? Yes. If the jury decides that you took the risk of getting someboy hit between your rifle and 250 feet, you are in for a depraved heart murder. They'll consider that as same as shooting .22 caliber into the crowded stadium. You didn't mean to kill any one person, but you could and did. And would it be surprising that people were hiding behind a bush in a skirmish? Be warned, 900 fps is no joke. Even a real 0.22 caliber bullet flies at around 1000 fps in a rifle, and slower in hand guns. You are playing with fire.

If you want accuracy beyond 250 feet, don't play airsoft. Go get yourself a .22 cal target rifle, and shoot at paper targets only. That's much cheaper than upgrading it anyway.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Jun 26 2007, 03:10 PM

Well, for someone who isnt a super-serious sniper willing to spend quadruple the money for somthing thats ever so slightly better those KSC .3's would be a good choice, right?

Well the whole reason for this upgrade is that I am giving up sniping in airsoft but still want to shoot around. And so now that I have my gun, a lot of money, and no fps limit, I thought I might want to upgrade it to the max. And it would be like having a real gun but I wouldn't be pestered by the law with permits and stuff. Plus the ammo would be cheap, and it most likely wouldn't be all that loud so I could shoot around in my back yard from my window. And hunt vermant that are terring up my lawn. And if something does come up like a game, I just switch out the cylinders and I am ready to go with 500 fps!

But What I want to know is.

1) what is the highest fps I can get without compromizing accuracy using the .43 or .88 bbs

2) What is the longest 6.01 tight boar I can get without messing up my range and fps and all that

3) Can I get a vacume effect that slows down the bb with a too long of barrel (or is there such a thing)

4) What range would I be looking at?

Thanks man, I can get all the upgrading tech going, but the ballistic stuff is messing me up. I just need some numbers...

This post has been edited by deadeyesniper: Jun 28 2007, 02:18 AM

Hi, I have a custom built M324 hybrid.(best parts coosen out of all three versions to make the best m324 parts combanation)
any ways it has a TB and shoots 530 with .28's I was going to get a lot of .28's for shooting for fun, and around 2000 .3's for games and serious target shooting. Is that a good choice?

For that fps .33 and .36 are better.

I swear by KSC .3's for my AEGs.

As a side to my other question, when I do go to games with 500 fps, what is a better choice of bb, Tm .3 or Strait .36?

1) .43s seem to work fine anywhere from 400fps and up. It kills your range below 520, but it'll hit in the exact same place every time. .88g steel bearings are a very bad idea in an airsoft gun, they'll absolutely destroy your range unless you're shooting more than 750fps or so (rough estimate). Many public-access fields and such limit fps to 600, and won't let you come anywhere near them with steel shot.

2&3) You really don't need anything longer than the stock barrel with anything considered to be a sniper rifle, but the longest I've even heard of was somewhere around 535mm. It'd look pretty stupid, even if you added a giant silencer. As far as the vacuum goes, the volume of a single-action spring rifle's cylinder is far greater than the cavity volume of the inner barrel- it'll still be pushing air out of the barrel long after the BB is gone, unless you've got a fourteen foot airsoft howitzer. On that note, ridiculously long barrels are going to cause a slight drop in accuracy as the BB will have more space to bounce off the barrel. It'll be less of an issue with a 6.01 tightbore than a stock, but should be noted.

4) Range is honestly mostly up to the shooter. I've set my scope to aim a little lower than the actual trajectory because the difference is extremely minor at shorter ranges, and on man-sized targets, an inch variance is hardly an issue at >150ft. If you're shooting small critters in your yard, you most likely don't need a Barrett, and shouldn't be worried about needing a recreational device firing .88g at 900fps. With a more reasonable goal, a good scope, good aim, a 6.01mm tightbore, and shooting (washed) .43g BBs at 700fps, you should be able to pull off a half inch shot grouping at 100ft in perfect weather, or man-sized targets at 400ft or so. This is assuming you've got experience sharpshooting, anyhow.

EDIT: It seems that Dee's Customs makes 650mm tightbore barrels for the PSG1- I think it looks odd to begin with, and making it any longer seems like a good way to get it bent faster. :'(

This post has been edited by Gid: Jul 5 2007, 02:06 PM

I just wish that the companies that make some of the best BB's would lower their price? Why can't they understand that they have probably a 70%-80% increase in sales with their BB's. Do they ever get advice from actual airsoft players?

Most airsoft players will pay the price regardless, so why would they change it, and no the companies don't really listen per say, they more of just monitor the community.

A note about .43g Digicon BB's: There are actually three different types of them. Only one of which has the graphite coating. Here is a list:

--Digicon .43 Special Order(SPC) - the most expensive type, they do not have a graphite coating, but a teflon coating instead, so as not to gum up your hop-up. They have much better tolerances as well than the other two types, but they are naturally more expensive than the others. These have a brown label on the bag.

--Digicon .43g Graphite Coated - the next best quality, but quite a few steps down from the SPC's. After the graphite coating is washed off(put in a sock in a cold was cycle), they arent too bad in quality. They are slightly less expensive than the SPC's. These have a green label on the bag.

--Digicon .43 Grey(Gu-Re) - these are the lowest quality .43's you can get. They do not have any coating at all, they are just grey BB's. They have horrible consistency and tolerances, but are the cheapest .43's available. These have a Brown or Orange label.

Hope this helps,
-Z-

I'm with Gid, he's already answered your questions.
The reason why I think 700fps is impractical is that at certain point it becomes a high-tech 21st century musket. Let's assume that you build a rifle can shoot 900fps with 0.2g. Of course you use 0.88g. Then you have a small bore musket. Normal rubber would be inadaquet to use as a hop notch for steel bearings. Still airsoft barrels are not rifled, and airsoft rifles are not mean to be accurate in long ranges. Accuracy and impact delivery will be still less than that of a 0.22 cal. If you say your backyard, you may not be talking about hundreds of yards, but still, compared to a rifled barrel of a real steel, airsoft accuracy is musket accuracy. For the money it takes one to upgrade, you can get yourself a 0.22 cal rifle for $300. Spend 3 times more and get a far less accurate airsoft rifle? I would not think that would be a wise investment.

Even using a 170 spring, at 100 feet, using 0.36g BBs, my grouping is down to 8-10 inches. With 130 spring and 0.3g at 100 feet, my average was about 6-7 inches. I doubt that anything stronger would be any more accurate. I have not used 0.88g, so I can't say anything about 0.88g. No matter what you shoot, stronger spring will always have greater impact. My suspicion is that impact throws your shots off course. If you want accuracy, try 100 spring, and use 0.3g, you can probably have 4 inch grouping at 100 feet.

Higher speed always compromises your accuracy, if my observation is correct. I think lower 400fps is a good compromise between accuracy and range for airsoft purpose. At around 400-450, you can send 0.3g out to 200-250feet, and you can hit a man sized target at that distance in 2-3 shots if not in your first try.

If you don't use your rifle for a skirmish, you can use steel bearings. It will be much more accurate, as far as flight chracteristics are concerned. But to make a steel bearing fly, you have to have a piston hitting the cylinder head at much greater speed. That is the problem. I haven't been able to solve that problem with high powered springs. Which is why I will go back down to lower grade springs if I cannot find a solution.

I believe that when Tokyo Marui started to build a sniper rifle, they found that impact vibration to be the biggest enemy of sniper rifles. Which is why they built an airbrake for VSR. But alas, to make your rifle shoot faster, you have to cut it. If you cut it, your VSR is no different from any other rifle. Impact vibration goes through the barrel.

I don't mean to discourage anybody from exprimenting.

Do your experiments, try to find a solution. Let us know if you find a good solution.

Nice read Von Luck

I just want to ask you, what setup would you recommend to achieve the longest range without compromising the accuracy (body-size)? What BB weight for the setup?
BTW:
I have a Maruzen APS type 96 with PDI chamber and PDI 6.04mm tight inner barrel. Cylinder and trigger are also upgraded to handle strong springs.
Springs I have:
130sp
170sp
210sp
I use a variety of BBs too; KSC .3, Maruzen SMG .29 and Straight .43

hope to hear from you


thanks and regards

Oh boy, that's the ultimate question, isn't it?
I do not have an answer for that. I have been struggling with that question myself.
But it seems like accuracy is always compromised when you use stronger springs.

Do you have PDI springs? Those are different from Laylax springs I use. PDI 210 would be close to Laylax 170 spring, I'm not sure. PDI uses % and Laylax uses m/s.

I used Laylax 120 spring, 130 spring, 150 spring and 170, and as my rifle shoots faster, with heavier BBs, it did not get more accurate. But less accurate. With my VSR, I know that 120 would be the most accurate one with workable range of up to 150-180 feet. With 120 spring, I could use 0.3g up to 100 feet. 0.3g gave more accuracy and even if 120 spring threw off the accuracy just a bit, it canceled each other. Could that work with even stronger springs and heavier BBs? It doesn't seem to work that way. Problem might be that over 0.3g range, BB quality falls. Marui 0.3g, Maruzen SGM 0.29g, KSC Perfec 0.3g, SIIS 0.33g are good. But Straight/Digicon is the only company that makes heavier BBs such as 0.36g, and 0.43g, but their qaulity is questionable. [0.43g's diameter variation is 0.110mm. Anywhere from 5.869mm-5.979mm, one of the biggest variation in the market. Compare that to Maruzen SGM's 0.006mm variation]

Even with a weak 120 spring, you can tag a body from 150 feet away almost all the time. (You'd have to aim higher, though) But if you want more range, 150 would be okay. I suspect that if you used 150 spring, you will hit a body sized target from 150 feet about 2/3 of the time, missing 1/3. In other words, if you fire 15 shots, you will hit 10 times and miss 5 times at 150 feet. But you can shoot farther to 200 feet, but the chance of hitting a body sized target would be down to 50% maybe. I'm just guessing so don't count on my numbers.

170 does not seem to work for me. I'll test with piston dampers, but if that shows same kind of inaccuracy, I will go down to 150 spring or even 130 spring. 170 is not that easy to pull, and if I have to work that hard, it should give me more range and more accuracy, but so far, it has given me only long range and terrible accuracy. With a 170 spring, all I can manage is about 8-10 inches at 100 feet. Torso shot from 100 feet? That's bad. Far worse than average 6 inch grouping of 120 spring.

It's personal taste. I think stock setting might be the most accurate, but with stock setting, you can't really go beyond 100 feet. 120 spring will increase the range to 150 feet, and 100 feet accuracy should be 6 inches or less. Head shot from 100 feet, body shot from 150 feet, almost 100% of the times. You can use 150 spring or 170 spring or 190 spring, but they will be increasingly less accurate, in my experience. So if you can live with 50% chance of tagging a body from 200 feet, 150 spring would do. Over 150(about 500fps), I would not recommend, if you care about accuracy. (again PDI spring is different, maybe 210 spring will give you 500fps???)

There are people who uses very strong spring to shoot very far. For example, using Laylax 190 spring and 0.43g. They can tag a torso from 200-250 feet. Even 300 feet. But they have to fire many rounds in order to score a hit. You might have to fire 5-15 times before you tag a man standing 300 feet away. If that works for you, use strongest spring and 0.43g. For me, that's just too unreliable. Also, 300 feet beyond airsoft range. At worst, I would use Laylax 150, and hand selected 0.43g or 0.36g(throw out deformed ones). If there is no wind even 0.3g is okay. Since I don't really like Straight/Digicon, I would use SiiS 0.33g (you must remove oil from SiiS BBs), and stick with 150 spring. Then I can get a torso shot from 200 feet at least 50% of the times, or in 2 shots. That's would be workable for me.

Sorry I couldn't give you a good answer.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Jul 13 2007, 01:56 PM

You tried all these springs in your VSR? Perhaps you are getting lower accuracy with the stronger springs because you may have the stock G-Spec barrel, and thus not allowing the BB's to stabilize themselves before exiting the barrel. I do not know what you VSR's setup is, could you please post below (or PM me) with as much information on the airsoft replica used to test the accuracy and such as you mentioned above?


Cheers, Graham.

I think he has a prosniper with a pdi .04

JEEZ I have been using Excels forever and I didn't know they sucked . I feel like big Newbie right now. since excels suck what would u recommend for a VSR gspec with a 170sp and a tightbore?

thanks

For Graham:

I have a Pro-sniper, and I had

1) Stock 6.08mm x 430mm aluminum barrel;
2) TM "Precision" 6.08mm x 430mm brass barrel [notice exactly same spec as stock];
3) PDI 6.05mm x 554mm barrel with 4/1000mm tolerance.

Best I got was with #2. TM brass barrel, even though as far as spec is concerned, it was no different from the stock aluminum barrel.


The most precise BBs are Maruzen Super Grandmaster(SGM) 0.29g. They have the tightest quality control. They have the lowest variation between BBs in terms of diameter and weight. Next would be TM 0.3g. I got best grouping with TM 0.3g BBs, even though their diameter variation is a little bigger than SGM. Excel 0.25g's 10 round diameter variation is 0.078mm, 13 times greater variation than SGM's 0.006mm.

Go with SGM, or TM's 0.3g, if you want the best. SiiS's 0.33g's variation is 0.015mm, a bit bigger than SGM and TM 0.3g, but still very tight. SiiS is hard to find, and they are oily, so you have to remove the oil before you use it. Maxi is also a good brand, but 0.3g's variation is slightly on the bigger side for a top notch maker, 0.026mm. That is odd because Maxi's 0.25g's 10 round variation is only 0.004mm, even better than SGM, but that's too light for 170 spring. Also Maxi 0.25g is very soft. I found nicks and grooves just by going through the magazine of a TM 1911. Besides, 0.25g is too light for a 170 spring. Since Maxi 0.3g costs almost as much as SGM or TM 0.3g, I'd say go with those and skip Maxi.

For a 170 spring, I would use 0.3g or 0.33g. I wish I can recommend Straight/Digicon 0.36g, because they are about the maximum mass for a 170 spring (it does drop after 100 feet). But, Straight/Digicon's quality is not so good. Because of that, my feeling is that 0.3g or 0.33g is the practical limit, as far as quality is concerned. I would say try SiiS 0.33g after removing oil, but I couldn't find one in stock for months.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Jul 16 2007, 02:13 PM

thanks dude. when removing oil can u just wipe it down with a rag or towel or is there a special way to do it?

I pour them in a tupperware thing with a pinch of laundry detergent. Then I pour warm water, and wash them. I do it several times. If you don't like the hassle, go with other brand's 0.3g. Oh, and if you find a place where they have SiiS 0,33g in stock, let me know. All the sellers I have used before seem to be out of stock.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Jul 17 2007, 11:18 AM

ok will do. Since you said I should use .3's should I just go with TM's or get SGM .3's or SGM .29?

thanks

On a Side note I have seen .9 6mm Aluminum Composite BB's for sale at my local shop they will even weigh the BB for you in person so you can see side by side with a .2. The only problem is that they are $25 for 500. I have been curious about them and they guaranty that the BB's are Perfect in shape even to the point of replacing and/or repairing your replica if a jam causes a problem. I am working on Building a 600Fps marksmen rifle and am thinking about making these a test run.

I am ordering a WELL L96 AWP and don't plan on tinkering with it and out of the box it says it gets 500 fps. What bbs do u suggest I buy that will still have good range and accuracy?

SiiS 0.33g would be better suited for a 170 spring, but it is a hassle to wash the oil off. Not to mention impossible to find in stock for a month or two now.

Maruzen has 0.3g but their 0.3g is no better than other brands'.

Give TM 0.3g a try.

Edit on above: SiiS 0.33g washed in detergents, and soaked in detergent over night washed oil clean off.






Now, that's a big no-no. Even with my 550 rifle, 0.36g feels heavy. With just 600fps, 0.9g would be too heavy. You'll barely send it out to 50 feet. If you upgrade to shoot 0.9g effectively, it will become very dangerous. If you hit any person with it, it would fall in the category of "reckless engangerment" at least. "Battery" can be another charge. Not to mention civil suits. One toe lost could cost 2 million dollars. Can you pay for an eye? Just don't use 0.9g. Those are used for sling shots for hunting small games. Also, aluminum cannot be that heavy. They are probably steel bearings. If that's the case, they will eat up your barrel. Another reason not to use 0.9g BBs.





I don't know if well's 500fps can be maintained for prolonged period of time.
Inexepnsive brands often have quirks like that.

If it maintains perfect 500fps, TM 0.3g would be good.

If it falls down to 450fps, SGM 0.29g would be more suited, but still you can use 0.3g.

This post has been edited by Von Luck: Jul 17 2007, 11:34 AM

would .23 be alright or should I use heavier?

It would not be advisable, if you are thinking of using .23 gram BB's in your MK96, which theoretically fires approximately 500fps you should use a BB heavier than .30 grams, .33 gram BB's would be more advisable. I am sure Von Luck will agree with me, aside from the fact that lighter BB's are effected more so than heavier BB's by wind, grass and other obstacles such as leaves; lighters BB's used with high powered airsoft replicas tend to be 'fired' at a far too great velocity to maintain a consistent trajectory.

k thanks

thanks. I found you some SiiS .33's. http://www.sunarmsairsoft.com/shop/product...4a728be91a29642 . Ill probable get some off those and some TM .3's and ill tell you if I notice any advantages in any. cya

major peaches, do you know if that site is us based?

I do not now. but I will probably buy the bb's from them. Ill tell you how it goes.

What weight and brand should I use with a TM G-spec with a 130 laylax spring?