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> Why Do People Want 400+ FPS?, Like serioulsly
Smeethinator
post Nov 6 2009, 12:01 AM
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As the title says I really do not know why people want such high fps'. Like for a sniper I understand but for an AEG it just seems like over kill. And seeing how most fields have a 400 limit, why do you want a gun shooting so high that you cant even use it in competition.

Thanks for any answers.


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vgamedude
post Nov 6 2009, 12:21 AM
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It allows you to use heavier BBs, break through brush and makes the BB reach your target faster. Also makes it less affected by wind.


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Wert
post Nov 6 2009, 12:38 AM
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Your thread title is annoying me....I am going to change it to "Why do people want 400+ fps"

Vgame is right though, if you have higher fps you can use heavier bb's more effectively, using a heavier bb will decrease the fps by some too.

-Wert

This post has been edited by Wert: Nov 6 2009, 12:39 AM


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Tobi-Kun
post Nov 6 2009, 12:41 AM
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DMRs usually require heavier springs to get the range and consistency they need to perform their role.


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Kavurcen
post Nov 6 2009, 12:48 AM
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A sniper? What're they going to do, spit BBs?

But yeah, there are electric sniper rifles...


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airsoft159
post Nov 6 2009, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (Smeethinator @ Nov 6 2009, 12:01 AM) *
why do you want a gun shooting so high that you cant even use it in competition.

Let's assume that if someone wants a gun that shoots over 400 FPS, they can either use it, or they have other guns that they can use, so either way, no one wants a gun that shoots so high that they can use it for it's intended purpose.

More power -> Heavy BBs -> More accuracy

Why do people want more accuracy?

Because they like to shoot less and hit the target more.

OR

They want over 400 FPS because some people enjoy seeing how much they can put a gun through and how much they can upgrade it. It could be fun....not my thing, but it could be fun.


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psychobunny
post Nov 6 2009, 12:51 AM
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The most logical and mature reason for wanting high FPS is as stated because some people need that extra power to reach out and touch someone. IF you play at really long ranges extra FPS enables you to use heavier BB's and thus increases range and accuracy.


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THCfox
post Nov 6 2009, 01:11 AM
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Since this is an imperfect world however and no one has mentioned it, I'll say it; some people (myself not included) do it to hurt people. But yes, as psychobunny said, it's usually so that you can use heavier BB's that will suffer less from the effects of wind, terminal velocity, etc.


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laxweasel
post Nov 6 2009, 01:28 AM
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I think what the OP was talking about was probably a lot of the clone guns that come stock shooting that hot. Lets be blunt, there are probably a lot of people who misunderstand the implications of FPS and generally abide by a "higher is better" mindset when it comes to FPS. They have this concept of higher FPS is "more powerful" and that's good right?... So anyway, I'll be the one to honestly say, the clone guns shooting hot probably appeal to people who don't fully understand what FPS is about. They'll still use .2g bbs and still not upgrade for accuracy. They just want a "powerful" gun.

EDIT: Grammar fix. It's late.

This post has been edited by laxweasel: Nov 6 2009, 01:29 AM


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Zemanova
post Nov 6 2009, 05:05 AM
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QUOTE (laxweasel @ Nov 6 2009, 01:28 AM) *
I think what the OP was talking about was probably a lot of the clone guns that come stock shooting that hot. Lets be blunt, there are probably a lot of people who misunderstand the implications of FPS and generally abide by a "higher is better" mindset when it comes to FPS. They have this concept of higher FPS is "more powerful" and that's good right?... So anyway, I'll be the one to honestly say, the clone guns shooting hot probably appeal to people who don't fully understand what FPS is about. They'll still use .2g bbs and still not upgrade for accuracy. They just want a "powerful" gun.

EDIT: Grammar fix. It's late.


yea I think thats the real reason ......newbs ...thats the real reason
nobody thats ever came to our large property who messed with our guns has ever wanted to use the lower fps guns even though they have the same range and accuracy as the 400+ guns. they think being more powerful or having a metal body makes it a better gun. but thats newbie people for ya. I purposely make all my loaners to have lower fps to increase their lifespan since I don't wanna waste money fixing up a loaner

....I think I have bad grammar too at 5am

This post has been edited by Dusti69: Nov 6 2009, 05:07 AM


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post Nov 6 2009, 07:31 AM
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All of the above is correct. There are a few different reasons why people want that.. I think in most cases it comes down to the guys/kids who do not play at fields with rules. These are the Backyardians... Where FPS is whatever you want it to be.. I have met a group of casual players who fall in this category, and they believed that higher FPS meant they had the better guns. This gives them bragging rights amongdt their circle of friends who only have one understanding of Airsoft. There is a the group of guys out looking for blood and things to beak with their unsafe guns, and do not really care about ROE and will shoot you with a hot gun no matter how close...

I cherish FPS limits... It adds a level of safety to a sport that can be dangerous if not regulated in some way.. I try to Police myself in this regard. Our local rules are pretty much 400 FPS with .20's limit on AEG's.. Everyone must chrono using the same exact weight no matter the role. THis ensures a baseline in regard to FPS. Being lit up with a HOT gun is no fun, and beyond the dangers of it, it can cause a hostile environment if someone loses their cool because of it. I have seen it too many times. This in my opinion is the first line of integrity in an Integrity rich sport/hobby. If you cannot be trusted to have a safe gun, how can I expect you to call your hits.


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King Five
post Nov 6 2009, 08:12 AM
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Remember....some very wise people once said "400 FPS is the limit, not the goal".

Like said, newer players often tend to think the higher the FPS, the better gun. It's sort of a status symbol to them. Others think they really need 400 FPS to hit somebody from far away. My M14 at 280 goes further than my KWA at 400 does.


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Zemanova
post Nov 6 2009, 08:30 AM
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I personally prefer 370 to 390fps. its a good balance of power and bb speed while being easier on the internals
ive been clipping up to an inch off of my 400+ springs that come in clones to reduce fps, give better rof, and be easier on the gb while adding an air seal nozzle to keep the fps where I like it

asgi chronoed my cm042s at 430 fps stock. thats nuts. I upgraded a lot in the gb. every compression part but a cylinder. I clipped an inch off of the spring and end up having great fps and rof on an 8.4 stick

This post has been edited by Dusti69: Nov 6 2009, 08:33 AM


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Majorhavoc
post Nov 6 2009, 10:35 AM
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This topic comes up occasionally, but I for one am glad to see it resurface on a regular basis.

All the reasons listed above for people wanting higher FPS are valid in the sense that they're true, but the central point here is that FPS field limits exist for player safety. Period.

It doesn't matter if protective gear can prevent injuries playing with higher FPS. People remove facemasks to take a drink. They pull off goggles to reload, clear a jam or just rub their eyes. Accidents happen. Any scrupulous field operator/owner understands this even if some of the players don't.

To answer OP's original Q, my strong sense is that most people want 400+fps because they don't truly understand FPS and the role it plays in ballistics in general, or airsoft in particular. Case in point: the notion that a it's ok to use .25, .28 or heavier weight bbs to meet field FPS limits with a gun that would otherwise exceed the FPS limit using .2 bb's.

No offense to anyone in this thread who implied that's ok, but it isn't. FPS is convenient and field measurable. But it is *very imperfect* measurement of kinetic energy when the mass of the projectile isn't taken into account.

To paraphrase an overused addage from the real steel world, FPS doesn't injure people, kinetic energy does. If a gun shooting 450 fps with .2 gram bbs is banned from a field, then using .3 gram ammunition to bring the same gun down to 380 fps is completely defeating the safety rationale that lead to the FPS limit in the first place.

If you think this is somehow BS, lurk over at Arnies Airsoft, which has a much higher percentage of European players. You won't have to browse there very long before you start seeing discussions of joules, a true measurement of kinetic energy. Many of the fields over there, and all of the EU airsoft safely laws, express power limits in terms of joules, not FPS.

Fields that are serious about safety provide you with their own reference ammo before testing your gun on the chrono.

I do agree there should be a different, higher FPS/joule limit for the designated sniper role, but that must be accompanied by minumum engagement distance rules. Distance in the field is a lot less black and white than FPS measured on a chrono, I know. But it's been my experience that "snipers" who can't follow minimum engagement rules don't understand what airsoft sniping is all about anyway, and don't stick around in that role for long.
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post Nov 6 2009, 04:41 PM
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In addition to the above, a higher fps is great for woodland/desert because the bbs penetrate brush a lot better. It's not fun when their bbs are flying through bushes and yours can't. lol


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Idiom
post Nov 6 2009, 05:54 PM
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A lot of people fall for the misunderstanding that they can increase range and accuracy with higher velocities and heavier rounds... but the real world results are only barely so. Not very effective. What it really does though is definitely penetration and less float time.
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Kavurcen
post Nov 6 2009, 06:38 PM
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A sort of halfway +1 to idiom.
When many people step up to heavier BB's, they notice a significant increase in groupings. However, this is often due not to the weight of the pellet but to the fact that said heavier BB's have better internal consistency and overall quality than many lighter BB's.

Let's make one thing clear.
When someone asks why someone wants a high velocity, it is assumed that you can actually use the gun. I've yet to play at a field naive enough to not monitor the BB weights used at a chrono station. At the field I usually play at, if you don't chrono with .20g BBs you don't chrono at all, and can't play. If people only have .25g pellets then they have to borrow .20g pellets to get chrono'd.

And finally...
The majority of people only have 400+ fps (with .20g pellets) in a sniper rifle or a DMR. At the vast majority of fields, there is a second set of rules for "sniper rifles". In quotes, because the only requirements for a sniper and his or her rifle is semi-automatic or bolt-action, and a 100+ foot minimum engagement distance. That's plenty of distance for the BB to lose energy, so that when it arrives at it's target it's well below what's considered "safe".

So in a nutshell, most people with 400+ fps guns are only engaging at 100 feet or more and their guns are firing on semi automatic or bolt action/lever/straight pull.

This post has been edited by Kavurcen: Nov 6 2009, 06:38 PM


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post Nov 6 2009, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE
significant increase in groupings

A significant increase in groupings may be as much as a 150-200% improvement, which yes is significant from that perspective, but the thing is that this may only mean 3-5". It's drastic, but not real world performance effective. Knock off like 12" from your groupings, and then you're in the realm of effectively significant, which is what really matters. Unless you're talking about a bolt action. Then that 3" is actually significant, but as long as it's at least semi-auto, it really doesn't matter.

What I've found increases groupings significantly is a combination of air seals, BB weight and quality, barrel cleanliness, hopup rubber cleanliness, hopup nub design, and the bore of the barrel. You really can't get "WOW!" results with just one variable, and reinforcing your gearbox to withstand over 400 FPS is the most expensive variable. Not very effective to do that.

QUOTE
heavier BB's have better internal consistency and overall quality than many lighter BB's.
I do not entirely agree that the tighter groupings is to attribute to the quality alone. I use AE .2's and .25's, depending on where I am playing. AE is a top-end ammo manufacturer, and both weights being the same manufacture should mean according to you that they get the same groupings. They do not. The heavier BB's get better groupings. The more mass the BB has, the less the air resistance can affect it and so the less it deviates once out of the barrel. It simply cuts through the air better.

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eege
post Nov 6 2009, 07:33 PM
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I've never seen a sniper go 400 fps. That has to be some sort of record.


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Kavurcen
post Nov 6 2009, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Idiom @ Nov 6 2009, 04:06 PM) *
A significant increase in groupings may be as much as a 150-200% improvement, which yes is significant from that perspective, but the thing is that this may only mean 3-5". It's drastic, but not real world performance effective. Knock off like 12" from your groupings, and then you're in the realm of effectively significant, which is what really matters. Unless you're talking about a bolt action. Then that 3" is actually significant, but as long as it's at least semi-auto, it really doesn't matter.

What I've found increases groupings significantly is a combination of air seals, BB weight and quality, barrel cleanliness, hopup rubber cleanliness, hopup nub design, and the bore of the barrel. You really can't get "WOW!" results with just one variable, and reinforcing your gearbox to withstand over 400 FPS is the most expensive variable. Not very effective to do that.

I do not entirely agree that the tighter groupings is to attribute to the quality alone. I use AE .2's and .25's, depending on where I am playing. AE is a top-end ammo manufacturer, and both weights being the same manufacture should mean according to you that they get the same groupings. They do not. The heavier BB's get better groupings. The more mass the BB has, the less the air resistance can affect it and so the less it deviates once out of the barrel. It simply cuts through the air better.


So you're suggesting that you shouldn't care about a few inches of improvements in groupings unless you have a sniper rifle?

And I didn't say alone. Like I said, it's "in most cases".


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post Nov 6 2009, 08:07 PM
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In the eyes of a newbie airsofter, 400+ FPS means that it is a good gun, whereas a Tokyo Marui is crummy because "It only shoots 300 FPS but my echo 1 G36C, you know the one from COD4, shoots 400 FPS".

Once you understand the basics of a good gun, though, 400 FPS (usually a little under for limitations) allows you do use heavier BB's effectively and get better (effective) range.

I for one just picked up a Dboys M4 for fun. It says that it should be around 350-380, and I noticed from the first shot that those BB's get work done, compared to lower FPS guns, even AEGs.


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Idiom
post Nov 6 2009, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE
So you're suggesting that you shouldn't care about a few inches of improvements in groupings unless you have a sniper rifle?

And I didn't say alone. Like I said, it's "in most cases".

I was not suggesting so much as elaborating on why it is a partial misunderstanding of something that is less effective than people think. But my disagreement was with the BB weight vs quality thing. It's mainly the weight.
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a captured snipe...
post Nov 6 2009, 10:49 PM
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My gun shoots around 400 and I use point 2's cuz I play kinda close up. The gun hurts like a a-censored.gif but it gets the job done. I got it cuz it looked like a good gun to my nooby little eyes.


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DM Hackle
post Nov 6 2009, 10:51 PM
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I use a 550 fps AEG for one reason. Maximum range capabilities. You may say, fps doesn't matter for me since I have a maxed out hopup system. Currently 275-300 foot shots is entirely possible with my gun.


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Kavurcen
post Nov 6 2009, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE (a captured sniper @ Nov 6 2009, 07:49 PM) *
My gun shoots around 400 and I use point 2's cuz I play kinda close up. The gun hurts like a a-censored.gif but it gets the job done. I got it cuz it looked like a good gun to my nooby little eyes.

LOL fail.


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a captured snipe...
post Nov 6 2009, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Kavurcen @ Nov 6 2009, 11:08 PM) *
LOL fail.


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post Nov 6 2009, 11:13 PM
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I recently popped an m130 into my g36kv for one reason. I couldn't punch through shrubbery with an m100. At all. And in New England, shrubbery is friggin' everywhere. When I did hit somebody, it was luck, and they wouldn't even feel it or hear it half of the time.


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post Nov 6 2009, 11:32 PM
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400 fps isn't exsesive if you're playing woodland
But my freind spent $200 bucks on a m150 gear box along with a magnum motor. He didn't know what he was doing and got the gearbox locked up and striped the piston
That is exsesive and btw most feilds will let you use a 400fps gun if it's moded to shoot semi only


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I have a l96 sniper upgraded with a 4x32 scope which has like 600-650 fps
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YesOfficer
post Nov 7 2009, 10:11 AM
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The fields around here have an FPS limit of 330 for CQB, 400 for woods, and 500 for semi-auto guns.


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Ultimateanthem
post Nov 7 2009, 07:53 PM
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I think it is because people over estimate how much range it adds.
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THCfox
post Nov 8 2009, 01:32 PM
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Allright just to throw this out there, I'm going against this whole groupings is a benefit thing. You have an actual semi-auto only DMR, fine. But for everyone else that exercises the full capacity of their automatic guns, accuracy by volume is really the key. Now granted a lot of the arguments proposed have been about conquering that Old New England Devil: Shrubbery, but if there's really THAT much in the way, wouldn't CQB styled guns be the way to roll? I'll buy that on open prairie land, where nothing gets in the line of sight, heavy BB's, close groupings, and range are pimpin' but for pretty much every other type of terrain, the spread of a less than perfect accuracy gun seems advantageous to me.


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bottles
post Nov 8 2009, 01:56 PM
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I have been made fun of by 13 year old nubs for having 330 FPS on my G&G m14, and the "pro" kids had a CYMA 047 chronod at 420 FPS.

I agree with all of the posts up there. High FPS+Heavier BBs=More range and better accuracy.
A smile emerges on my lips every time I hear kids think their HOT guns are superior than TM guns.


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Paisley Pirate
post Nov 16 2009, 10:57 PM
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On our indoor courses, we had several guns that were right at the 350 fps limit...

BUT!


The guns most feared were the ones shooting 250-270 fps at 30 (or 40, or more) bps with high accuracy.

Frankly, with that many bbs / sec spitting out, accuracy isn't that necessary... but it is fun.

My personal gun was set up to run 330 fps @ 20 bps. With .20's.

Also, we always used a joule limit for the 350 fps limit... which means that if you ran .25s (or 30's) your fps limit went down accordingly...

Funniest thing was the guys putting .12's in their guns to make the bbs "fly faster" since they could... talk about inaccurate at even 75 ft... wowza... but 20 ft, they worked (I guess...) At least, they were happy with them.


Any Op we sponsor, is based on an energy limit (that we express in fps @ .20, with a conversion chart for different weights) not simply an FPS limit.

Any reputable Airsoft place would know that, and use it. Or should.

Just sayin'.


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G36fanatic...
post Nov 16 2009, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (THCfox @ Nov 5 2009, 10:11 PM) *
Since this is an imperfect world however and no one has mentioned it, I'll say it; some people (myself not included) do it to hurt people. But yes, as psychobunny said, it's usually so that you can use heavier BB's that will suffer less from the effects of wind, terminal velocity, etc.



you go to mike force don't you? that pretty much the philosophy of half the guys there lol PAIN!!!!


But the only reason I keep my guns around 400 is so I can use .25 or .28 gram BBs.


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Onikozah
post Nov 16 2009, 11:13 PM
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People are paranoid and think if they have a powerful gun then they'll start winning things and people will call their hits.


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APJK1414
post Nov 16 2009, 11:43 PM
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I like to view fps like I view fire. Some will say fire is bad, but it's actually pretty useful when used properly. Fps is the same. If it's put in the right setup it WILL increase the performance of your gun. But if it falls in the wrong hands it will be useless and harmful.
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Master Destroyer
post Nov 17 2009, 01:04 AM
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another plus of high fps is the bb will get to its target faster.


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maruipro
post Nov 17 2009, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (Master Destroyer @ Nov 16 2009, 10:04 PM) *
another plus of high fps is the bb will get to its target faster.


Well there was a thread that stated that a higher FPS doesnt mean it gets to the target faster.

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/FPS-Myth-t66494.html

I don't really see a point of upgrading above 400 FPS. My DMR is shooting 400 and it tags heads out to 250 ft just fine.

This post has been edited by maruipro: Nov 17 2009, 02:58 AM


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eckoman11
post Nov 17 2009, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (Onikozah @ Nov 17 2009, 12:13 AM) *
and people will call their hits.

Sometimes it seems as if that will never happen...


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post Nov 17 2009, 06:00 AM
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Interesting!!!

Since I'm in the opposite side of the world from you guys, we consider 400 fps as something OUT-OF-THE-BOX, as everyone else is shooting @ 450fps or beyond.

Why? for all the reasons stated above.

Here, the law limits airsoft guns @ 550fps @ 0.2g, may it be an AEG, Gas, or Spring.

It really depends on what the airsoft community has standardized. When we buy our TMs, we upgrade right after receiving them to 400fps or so, as 400fps is the limit for CQB games.. The community makes the baseline, its 350 in other parts of the world, lower in others, higher in others. Everything else follows.

Is it unsafe? There really has been no study on how these increase the risks involved. Perhaps the magnitude of the damage, but with regards to the number of incidents.. there's none.

If you ask me why the law limits it to 550fps @ .2g? I really don't know.. It should be higher.. Hehehe..


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