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> Redesigning a gear box!, Ver. 2 & Ver. 3
Coulter
post Feb 8 2010, 03:48 PM
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For the past month or so while in class, I've been thinking about the design of a gear box and how it can be improved. Not to give to much away Ive come up with a module type version of both Ver. 2 & 3 Gear boxes (keep in mind I will keep the outer dimensions the same as a normal gearbox). I have a basic drawing down in CAD. On the 20th I will be going up to The University of Kentucky, where they have a 3D scanner. so I can get the exact dimensions. After that I will begin to start the project in my free time while in my drafting class. Once I finish the prototype on Inventor I can use The prototype machine in my drafting class to "print off" a 3D ABS model and if all goes as planned, CNC the final design out of aluminum or some other kind of material.

So the point of the topic is, What would you like to see changed on Ver. 2 & Ver. 3 gear boxes? What are those little things that annoy you when assembling your gearbox? What Type of material would you like a gear box to be made of? (Keep the cost in mind).


-Thanks
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No_Compromise
post Feb 8 2010, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (coulter @ Feb 8 2010, 12:48 PM) *
For the past month or so while in class, I've been thinking about the design of a gear box and how it can be improved. Not to give to much away Ive come up with a module type version of both Ver. 2 & 3 Gear boxes (keep in mind I will keep the outer dimensions the same as a normal gearbox). I have a basic drawing down in CAD. On the 20th I will be going up to The University of Kentucky, where they have a 3D scanner. so I can get the exact dimensions. After that I will begin to start the project in my free time while in my drafting class. Once I finish the prototype on Inventor I can use The prototype machine in my drafting class to "print off" a 3D ABS model and if all goes as planned, CNC the final design out of aluminum or some other kind of material.

So the point of the topic is, What would you like to see changed on Ver. 2 & Ver. 3 gear boxes? What are those little things that annoy you when assembling your gearbox? What Type of material would you like a gear box to be made of? (Keep the cost in mind).


-Thanks



Being a ME, I am totally interested in what you may come up with... However, the GB would have to be steel and not aluminum. Aluminum just wouldn't be ideal for a GB as it is much easier to bend and fail - especially if you want to keep the same dimensions, as you can't add/reinforce the GB any further without changing some dimensions... Aluminum would be good for a prototype, but even cheaper material would accomplish the same thing (teflon, ABS, styrene, etc...). Are you actually planning on producing AND testing out the GB design or is this just for a prototype? A block of good quality steel would be very expensive and would require some serious hardware to manipulate, not really ideal for a project I would think, but I am at a loss to your budget and resources. I would think a steel contraption would be needed/ideal, but very difficult to do.

Best of luck!
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NUSCerick
post Feb 8 2010, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (coulter @ Feb 8 2010, 03:48 PM) *
For the past month or so while in class, I've been thinking about the design of a gear box and how it can be improved. Not to give to much away Ive come up with a module type version of both Ver. 2 & 3 Gear boxes (keep in mind I will keep the outer dimensions the same as a normal gearbox). I have a basic drawing down in CAD. On the 20th I will be going up to The University of Kentucky, where they have a 3D scanner. so I can get the exact dimensions. After that I will begin to start the project in my free time while in my drafting class. Once I finish the prototype on Inventor I can use The prototype machine in my drafting class to "print off" a 3D ABS model and if all goes as planned, CNC the final design out of aluminum or some other kind of material.

So the point of the topic is, What would you like to see changed on Ver. 2 & Ver. 3 gear boxes? What are those little things that annoy you when assembling your gearbox? What Type of material would you like a gear box to be made of? (Keep the cost in mind).


-Thanks


I've been building a gearbox in Autodesk inventor for the past couple months in Intro to Engineering and Design, It's essentially a gearbox that has the hop-up integrated into the gearbox in order to provide a better seal. I think I'll upload it in a couple days once I finish it.


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Kamikaz3
post Feb 8 2010, 04:03 PM
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An integrated AR latch that isn't impossible to put back in.


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No_Compromise
post Feb 8 2010, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (NUSCerick @ Feb 8 2010, 01:00 PM) *
I've been building a gearbox in Autodesk inventor for the past couple months in Intro to Engineering and Design, It's essentially a gearbox that has the hop-up integrated into the gearbox in order to provide a better seal. I think I'll upload it in a couple days once I finish it.


Now that is a pretty innovative idea... There are some obvious pros and cons but it would assure that a seal would be made. That design may complicate the necessity to change hop-up units and every manufacture would have to redesign their mechs/recievers but ideally that could be accomplished... I was thinking of not integrating it in but perhaps making threads to the GB and to the hopup so that both could be screwed onto each other for a seal (and still be interchangeable/distance dependent to an extent). Some redesign would be needed to that taking out the GB alone isn't too much of a hassle though... I like projects that keep in mind the goal + user friendly oriented.

Kudos to you on innovating.
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No_Compromise
post Feb 8 2010, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Kamikaz3 @ Feb 8 2010, 01:03 PM) *
An integrated AR latch that isn't impossible to put back in.


I've actually heard of AR latches breaking before... So intergrating it into a single design may not be user friendly. What happens if you break it? Would you have to buy a whole new GB? I haven't personally had issues with replacing an AR latch, but to each his own. There are always pros and cons in redesigning, and it is up to engineers to weigh this and go with what works best.
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Kamikaz3
post Feb 8 2010, 04:23 PM
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I'd like a system where you can close something around the AR-latch to keep it in place while closing the gearbox but that still allows it to do its thing. The metal flap that you can close around it could be easy to remove so if your AR-latch gets out of place or broken, you can easily replace it.


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Gcommando36
post Feb 8 2010, 04:30 PM
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I don't think integrating the AR latch would be a good idea, but instead I think the shaft should just be longer so it stays in better.

I think it would be great to have more reinforcement near the front of the V2, considering how easily it breaks. I would also love a way to hold the V3 trigger assembly in better. I always have to put it in right as I close the shell.


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Coulter
post Feb 8 2010, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (No_Compromise @ Feb 8 2010, 03:59 PM) *
...Are you actually planning on producing AND testing out the GB design or is this just for a prototype? A block of good quality steel would be very expensive and would require some serious hardware to manipulate, not really ideal for a project I would think, but I am at a loss to your budget and resources. I would think a steel contraption would be needed/ideal, but very difficult to do.

Best of luck!



Yeah, I am planning on producing and testing it. Im very lucky when it comes to the tools I have available. My ATC has a prototype machine (ABS plastic), Plasma CNC machine, and a CNC w/ a bit I don't know what its proper name is. Im not sure on the budget, Im sure a few blocks of aluminum would not cost to much, im willing to spend enough to see this through and make a couple for people to test.

QUOTE (NUSCerick @ Feb 8 2010, 04:00 PM) *
I've been building a gearbox in Autodesk inventor for the past couple months in Intro to Engineering and Design, It's essentially a gearbox that has the hop-up integrated into the gearbox in order to provide a better seal. I think I'll upload it in a couple days once I finish it.


That's really cool. It would be great to see it.

QUOTE (Kamikaz3 @ Feb 8 2010, 04:03 PM) *
An integrated AR latch that isn't impossible to put back in.


Ok noted, Thanks.
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APJK1414
post Feb 8 2010, 04:43 PM
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Curve the edges so they are not so straight. That will help spread the impact. Also, I do not like how the top part on the V2 gearbox is so thin (the little stem, I guess). If you make it a little bigger that would fix the problem of V2's breaking.
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Coulter
post Feb 8 2010, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (Gcommando36 @ Feb 8 2010, 04:30 PM) *
I don't think integrating the AR latch would be a good idea, but instead I think the shaft should just be longer so it stays in better.

I think it would be great to have more reinforcement near the front of the V2, considering how easily it breaks. I would also love a way to hold the V3 trigger assembly in better. I always have to put it in right as I close the shell.


Yeah the V3 trigger assembly frustration is what started this. lol


QUOTE (APJK1414 @ Feb 8 2010, 04:43 PM) *
Curve the edges so they are not so straight. That will help spread the impact. Also, I do not like how the top part on the V2 gearbox is so thin (the little stem, I guess). If you make it a little bigger that would fix the problem of V2's breaking.



I think a stronger material could solve the problem. But im not for sure.
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BigEd
post Feb 8 2010, 06:07 PM
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Contact MT Haynes on the NEASG.ORG, Mark is a friend of mine and he made V2 gearboxes from aircraft alluminum.
He always said "The single most difficult part to machine was the ears which hold the cylinder head in place."

MT Haynes gearbox.
(Images courtesy of Whorify)





When it comes to AV latches, I tweak the spring until it holds the latch arm in place.
But a better design might be the G&G M14 gearbox AV latch setup. The arm floats on a removable shaft.

A removable spring and spring guide similar design on the PGC/CA/Star/ARES SAW 249, 1918 BAR, A&K M60, etc...

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Coulter
post Feb 8 2010, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (BigEd @ Feb 8 2010, 06:07 PM) *
Contact MT Haynes on the NEASG.ORG, Mark is a friend of mine and he made V2 gearboxes from aircraft alluminum.
He always said "The single most difficult part to machine was the ears which hold the cylinder head in place."

MT Haynes gearbox.
(Images courtesy of Whorify)





When it comes to AV latches, I tweak the spring until it holds the latch arm in place.
But a better design might be the G&G M14 gearbox AV latch setup. The arm floats on a removable shaft.

A removable spring and spring guide similar design on the PGC/CA/Star/ARES SAW 249, 1918 BAR, A&K M60, etc...

///ed///



Oh yeah I forgot about him, I only saw his gearboxes being discussed on here a few times. Thanks alot!
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Coin3
post Feb 8 2010, 10:50 PM
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Sorry if this is kinda off topic, but I can't let it slip my mind.

Instead of us telling you ideas for ways to improve the gearbox designs, we should have a contest to make a new design entirely, in a 2d blueprint. The winning gearbox would be the design to improve upon, and test out. It sounds absolutely fun... and would increase the change of coming across a genius idea.

This post has been edited by Coin3: Feb 8 2010, 10:52 PM


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sergantsnipes
post Feb 9 2010, 12:03 PM
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fix the v3 trigger assembly where its like a v2 and doesnt always pop out, ARL built into the gearbox, stronger v2 gearbox, get rid of the slide on top of the V3 and make it screws like the 2v


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post Feb 9 2010, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE
A removable spring and spring guide similar design on the PGC/CA/Star/ARES SAW 249, 1918 BAR, A&K M60, etc...


I second that. An easily removal spring would be really nice.


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Coulter
post Feb 9 2010, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (mvdm929 @ Feb 9 2010, 12:34 PM) *
I second that. An easily removal spring would be really nice.



I worked on something like that last year, but it was just a basic idea.





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No_Compromise
post Feb 9 2010, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (Coin3 @ Feb 8 2010, 07:50 PM) *
Sorry if this is kinda off topic, but I can't let it slip my mind.

Instead of us telling you ideas for ways to improve the gearbox designs, we should have a contest to make a new design entirely, in a 2d blueprint. The winning gearbox would be the design to improve upon, and test out. It sounds absolutely fun... and would increase the change of coming across a genius idea.


The first step is to try to improve the design. Why did engineers design the V3 and V2 the way they designed it in the first place? I think redesigning is a great step in producing innovations and showing the flaws in the design (what needs to be improved? Why? How can it be improved?). Starting from stratch should be a last resort as it is very time consuming, difficult, and it will raise a lot more criticism than a base model of an already proven design. Now, if the design cannot be economically improved, is extremely flawed, or new materials/technologies need to be integrated then it would be a different story. Baby steps first...
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Idiom
post Feb 9 2010, 07:25 PM
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I think it was the JLS Beretta Storm, but I recall a funky clone gearbox that had a swinging motor cage. You could angle the motor cage any way you wanted, which could make a single GB design more universal across different body models.

Someone around here once I recall was tinkering with putting an airvalve in airsoft guns for electric marksmen rifles. The gun would prime the compressed air before you even pull the trigger for perfect trigger response.

Modular design breaking up into three parts (upper, lower, and motor cage) I think is in some ICS V2's. Kind of useful. I think it was called a "split" gearbox design?

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No_Compromise
post Feb 9 2010, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Idiom @ Feb 9 2010, 04:25 PM) *
Someone around here once I recall was tinkering with putting an airvalve in airsoft guns for electric marksmen rifles. The gun would prime the compressed air before you even pull the trigger for perfect trigger response.


On some AEGs pulling the trigger in semi will actually fully compress the spring instead of decompressing it after every shot so that there is practically no time-lapse in trigger response. Is that what you meant? On my ARES G36k it does this. The only draw back is that to make sure the spring is always decompressed after every game is to open the GB and reset the spring or take out the spring.

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Kamikaz3
post Feb 9 2010, 11:25 PM
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I agree, a quick change spring mechanism is something I would like to see a lot more of.


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p4ndora
post Feb 10 2010, 12:39 PM
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YES. Quick change spring system in a v3 shell, and I would pay maybe $50 for it.
I can see the integrated trigger mech being a problem for when you want to change your gearbox from your g36 to your AUG, but the integrated ARL is a great idea. Maybe screw it in loosely?


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post Feb 10 2010, 01:23 PM
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I'd like to see a somewhat clone of the PGC/ Pro Win V2 gearbox. CNC aluminum, but make it 100% TM compatable. No filing or dremeling needed. Maybe take the dimmensions of a regular gearbox, like a G&P, then change accordingly.


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Gcommando36
post Feb 10 2010, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE (sergantsnipes @ Feb 9 2010, 12:03 PM) *
fix the v3 trigger assembly where its like a v2 and doesnt always pop out, ARL built into the gearbox, stronger v2 gearbox, get rid of the slide on top of the V3 and make it screws like the 2v


I actually love the slide on the V3. I like it a lot more than screws.


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Coulter
post Feb 10 2010, 01:44 PM
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Oh, what sized bushing would you like to see?


QUOTE (p4ndora @ Feb 10 2010, 12:39 PM) *
YES. Quick change spring system in a v3 shell, and I would pay maybe $50 for it.
I can see the integrated trigger mech being a problem for when you want to change your gearbox from your g36 to your AUG, but the integrated ARL is a great idea. Maybe screw it in loosely?


I was thinking about dividing off the trigger area so when you take apart the mech box its stays in its own enclosed shell type thing and if you need to change out anything like the trigger then you can take it apart. I'm not sure how to put it, I have it all worked out in my head...lol

QUOTE (Gcommando36 @ Feb 10 2010, 01:32 PM) *
I actually love the slide on the V3. I like it a lot more than screws.



I agree, I don't like the screws on the Ver. 2.

This post has been edited by coulter: Feb 10 2010, 01:48 PM
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Kamikaz3
post Feb 10 2010, 04:40 PM
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A hole in the back of the gearbox to be able to insert a screwdriver into to hold the spring in place when reassembling. V2's have this but only some V3's I've seen do. It's a pain to reassemble them when they don't have the hole.


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post Feb 10 2010, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (Gcommando36 @ Feb 8 2010, 04:30 PM) *
I would also love a way to hold the V3 trigger assembly in better. I always have to put it in right as I close the shell.

+1 The V3 trigger assembly is always a pain in the rear to get it and keep it in


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post Feb 10 2010, 05:31 PM
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In my mind, the perfect gearbox would have:

-V3 body w/ slide
-Simple, stays in place V2 trigger assembly
-V2 hole for screwdriver
-Something like coulter has for quick spring swaps
-an ARL that stays in place
-A motor that fits/partially fits in the gearbox, but that can be removed without taking the GB apart.
-A split top and bottom half, like the recent ICS MP5 has.


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Idiom
post Feb 10 2010, 06:27 PM
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How about a drop-in gas GB?

Same shape and size so it's a drop in, still has a nozzle that cycles, feed an intake tube out the bottom of the grip through the motor plate for external tanks.
Base it off the NS2 gas gun guts, as they work in cold weather.
Throw in some weights so it kicks somewhat?

Also:
Flat trigger GB. Screw the existing V2 and V3 designs.
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post Feb 10 2010, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (No_Compromise @ Feb 8 2010, 03:59 PM) *
Being a ME, I am totally interested in what you may come up with... However, the GB would have to be steel and not aluminum. Aluminum just wouldn't be ideal for a GB as it is much easier to bend and fail - especially if you want to keep the same dimensions, as you can't add/reinforce the GB any further without changing some dimensions... Aluminum would be good for a prototype, but even cheaper material would accomplish the same thing (teflon, ABS, styrene, etc...). Are you actually planning on producing AND testing out the GB design or is this just for a prototype? A block of good quality steel would be very expensive and would require some serious hardware to manipulate, not really ideal for a project I would think, but I am at a loss to your budget and resources. I would think a steel contraption would be needed/ideal, but very difficult to do.

Best of luck!



I can't believe nobody has commented on this yet. There are no steel gearboxes currently in production. (Nearly) All gearboxes in existence are made of an aluminum-zinc alloy. Milling the gearbox out of aluminum billet would be stronger than most production gearboxes, which for the most part are (incoming hyperbole) pretty adequate for their purposes.

Furthermore, steel billet is cheaper than aluminum. Getting a block of steel to machine would cost a fraction of the price of an equivalent aluminum block. The increased cost associated with steel is solely due to the vastly increased difficulty to manipulate, and the increased wear on bits.

Forget steel; aluminum is more than adequate.


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Kavurcen
post Feb 10 2010, 06:50 PM
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Not to mention a block of steel adds quite a bit of weight to a gun over aluminum.


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BigEd
post Feb 10 2010, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE
How about a drop-in gas GB?


There was, but it never went into full production. Basicly it was a hammer valve system, dial your fps up to 500. The idea was convert any aeg with a piston into gas gun. These made in late 2007-early 2008. Never saw any more intel on them.

V3 gearbox pictured. (Not by madbull)


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Leinad16
post Feb 10 2010, 07:29 PM
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I think that quick change spring concept looked really promising from your pictures, follow up with that. And not to sound like a broken record, but my biggest complaint is the v3 trigger assembly. I was thinking perhaps part of the difficulty with its installation is based on how short the arm of the spring is. It seems to slip too easily. I'm relatively new to airsoft so I've never opened a v2, so I don't know how it works. But it seems like any improvement on holding that spring in place could help that particular issue. An external clamp on the side of the GB sounds nice, but also sounds impractical. Not to mention it would also need an entirely new breed of trigger spring, lol.
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Kavurcen
post Feb 10 2010, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (BigEd @ Feb 10 2010, 03:57 PM) *
<snip>

Was?
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airs...il?prodID=20766
Is.


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Gcommando36
post Feb 10 2010, 08:06 PM
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DCU is sexy


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QUOTE (Idiom @ Feb 10 2010, 06:27 PM) *
How about a drop-in gas GB?

Same shape and size so it's a drop in, still has a nozzle that cycles, feed an intake tube out the bottom of the grip through the motor plate for external tanks.
Base it off the NS2 gas gun guts, as they work in cold weather.
Throw in some weights so it kicks somewhat?

Also:
Flat trigger GB. Screw the existing V2 and V3 designs.


Mad Bull makes one, but it isn't that great.


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Kamikaz3
post Feb 11 2010, 10:50 PM
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Experience > $400 guns


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QUOTE (THCfox @ Feb 10 2010, 02:31 PM) *
In my mind, the perfect gearbox would have:

-V3 body w/ slide
-Simple, stays in place V2 trigger assembly
-V2 hole for screwdriver
-Something like coulter has for quick spring swaps
-an ARL that stays in place
-A motor that fits/partially fits in the gearbox, but that can be removed without taking the GB apart.
-A split top and bottom half, like the recent ICS MP5 has.


You've nailed most of the key points, but I don't think it would need a split gearbox AND a quick change spring system. One or the other would be fine most likely.


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azur
post Feb 12 2010, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (No_Compromise @ Feb 8 2010, 01:10 PM) *
Now that is a pretty innovative idea... There are some obvious pros and cons but it would assure that a seal would be made. That design may complicate the necessity to change hop-up units and every manufacture would have to redesign their mechs/recievers but ideally that could be accomplished... I was thinking of not integrating it in but perhaps making threads to the GB and to the hopup so that both could be screwed onto each other for a seal (and still be interchangeable/distance dependent to an extent). Some redesign would be needed to that taking out the GB alone isn't too much of a hassle though... I like projects that keep in mind the goal + user friendly oriented.

Kudos to you on innovating.

FWIW: the Ares M4 has this feature built in stock. I do think their system could be improved though, making the hopup unit removable without disassembly of the gearbox would be nice.

As for the concept gearbox, I hate anti-reversal latches. If you can find some way to remove them, I would definitely buy one of your products. A quick swap spring system would be nice as well. Even though it already exists on quite a few guns, it would make your GB sell just that much better.


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sergantsnipes
post Feb 12 2010, 10:50 AM
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the G&G m14 ARL setup is a pain in the :censored2:. The spring sometimes gets stuck in the gaps of the gearbox so it stops working and you have to take your motor off and push the spring back down with a paper clip


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