Good day to you all.

The spotter. A lot of people will tell you that they are what makes the sniper team invincible, and a lot of people will tell you that they will give away your position, and aren't much of a help.

Imagin a sniper.. A good one. With a good suit, with good stealth skills, and an. say .. M4. - this is a spotter
Now imagine another sniper with equal skills, equal ghillie, equal stealth, and a single shot BA sniper rifle.

Now say you are a lone wolf sniper and the spotter described above volenteers to be your spotter. You say OK, and you go off into the wilderness. You are constantly pointing out the spotter's small mistakes in your head, and you are always worrying about him, and are always concerned that he will give away your position.

This is a correct mentality right? WRONG

Imagine you are the spotter. You have superior firepower, and can do everything a rifleman can do, and stay invisible. All your sniper can do is take the long shots. You have to guard him in a firefight, and he can do nothing but throw a smoke and "cover" you whilst you engage the enemy.

How does this sound: The current mentality towards spotters, that they are only a hinderance is backwards. You should not be worrying about the spotter, the spotter should be worrying about you.

I look forward to your responses.

This post has been edited by Christafuarion: Sep 30 2007, 03:29 PM

When you worry about the mistakes someone else is making, then you're not concentrating on avoiding your own mistakes.

Honestly, for airsoft, actually spotting the enemies is not a huge job. Protection is the big thing. My favorite strategy is to draw fire, then retreat back while the enemies advance, and let the sniper take them down. Then once the force is weakened, calling in a squad to try and flank them while they're under cover.

I agree, the spotter in airsoft is not needed for actually spotting people, but for tasks like range estmation, gaurd, close range elimination, radio operator. Of course all of these things can be the task of the shooter. but...whatever.

I go agree; that spotting is an important thing to have in actuallity but not in airsoft. You need protection from enemies. Though this could be solved by have sidearms and whatnot and traps. Some of the people I play with will carry around a mp5k or mp7 along with a pistol; or some of them who don't mind the weight will carry around an m4 with them aswell. Then there traps sometimes they take out and use claymore mines which are fun but "scary" since it makes u jump a bit



I'd personally go at it alone; since if you have a good scope you could spot for yourself. PLus most people don't wana wait around the same place for a while; they wana be on the attack and see alot of action. If someone would want to tag along I wouldn't mind; but they'd need to be able to be patient, quiet, and helpful I guess...my .02

to add my opinion, I agree that a spotter is not necessary for spotting tasks in airsoft. to give my true opinion, I don't think that they are necessary for any sniper (in airsoft). I'm sure that I will get responses about my supposed "lone wolf" mentality and how horribly wrong it is, but these responses will only come from a milsim standpoint. I have used a spotter in the past, and I believe that they only hinder my ability of stealth, which is my main weapon. most of the jobs performed in this role, I can do myself. for example:

1. spotting: I have a scope with mil dots and I have binoculars
2. close range elimination- I have a pistol or a radio to call in support
3. protection- not to sound arrogant but that is where stealth comes into play
4. radio operator- I have an earpiece connected to my radio. I am able to talk at all times
5. any other tasks- I can normally complete my tasks myself. if not, I am able to radio for support and wait for them to help me.

any constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. and Chris, this is an excellent topic

We call "spotter", but I thinks is more like an "escort".

You don't need the range estimation or the help spotting people, so you don't need the "spotter better called escort" to be as close as real sniper teams. We can work better without that close, we need a radio or a good understanding with our mate, and thats all.

Without a mate, call him spotter or escort or whatever you want, we don't have enough firepower to drawback a "hot" situation, and personally I feel better with someone close enought to cover me when things goes wrong.

I'm a defender of the "airsoft spotter" (as the "airsoft sniper", the spotter haven't got the same task as the real counterpart), but both (the sniper and the spotter) have to learnt how to work together in airsoft.

I may be wrong, but that how I think about it.

This post has been edited by Hari: Sep 30 2007, 04:31 PM

I'll definitely accept that. although I don't think they're necessary, I guess if a SAW came after me I could probably use more firepower than my pistol, which I rarely carry anyway.

I'm loving the replyes guys!

This may sound a bit harsh, but I'm typing it with a smile.

A lot of snipers carry a pistol- for what? What are you goin to do with that?

Oh, uh, well, if someone gets too close I'm gonna kill him with it.

Don't make me laugh, you are going to kill a 400 fps automatic, 300 round carrying aeg weilder with you 320 fps, 30 rnd, semi, blowback (your shot is thrown off with every shot) pistol? Give me a break. The only use a pistol can serve, is when an enemy is within 50 ft, and he is unaware of your presence

^^ this is a recreation of a diolouge I read somewhere but I can't quite remember where...

Although, some people are switching to mp5k's...

And please, keep up the good work

HARI: That is an excellent point. It does't really matter what we call our "mate", But they ARE more of an escort..

Chris

Um, yeah. The other day, I ran out of battery with my M14, and switched to my sig. I advanced with a fire team, and got behind a bunker fairly close to the enemy. I managed 3 kills before I ran out of ammo. That ain't bad.

sig p226?
what?

Yeah, I don't necessarily believe in the statement I just heard it.

This post has been edited by Christafuarion: Sep 30 2007, 05:24 PM

A sidearms is always usefull, but I'm with the person than write that when say that we have very low oportunities to survive (we have to be realistic).....but at least you have one, and sometimes you need something like a sidearm to belive you can wait until the backup arrives, and sometimes you can't fire in very close range with your BA coz you don't want to harm really bad the other guy.

I'm hardly against the Snipers with Mp5k/Mp7/... "sidearm" it sound like a Multirole players that want the firepower of an assault player in CQB, the long range of a sniper, the ROF of a MG......and do all wrong (reminds me a lot of years ago when I play D&D and sometimes someone pick a Bard =P......errrr....yes I played D&D ¬¬'). And they keep the mobitily low, at least for me, I can't carry such a big secondary and stay stealth or comfortable.

This post has been edited by Hari: Sep 30 2007, 05:29 PM

I'm on radio with 3 other guys usually, we're always passing info back and forth. If someone is getting too close to me I let them know and they cause enough of a distraction that I can either shoot them or move or whatever I need to do. If that's my "Spotter", then all I can say is I have a much easier time with them than without them.

I just think that in any situation, a spotter allows you SOOOO much more flexibility.

Think about it...

A two man team with the capability to preform recon, long distance elimination, invisibility, and everything else a standard rifleman could do.

All in two men...

Awesome..

Well, actually it was a kjw sig 229, but yeah. Pistols can be effective if you know how to use them, just like with any other weapon.

This post has been edited by bat21win: Sep 30 2007, 05:39 PM

Oh, ok.

My point was that in a firefight, usually your chances of winning are lower than your opponents because you are using an inferior weapon that you have less practice with, where your opponent is using a greater weapon on which he has more practice with.

But yeah, if it shoots, it kills

I carry a pistol with me so that I know that some day that gun will save my life

little extra weight aint bad. don't carry much ammo anyways.

I know Im a Newbie at being a sniper, and most fields don't allow you to carry around two "primaries", but when its me and my friends I carry around my M4 with me for close to mid range fights. I know its not realistc so don't flame me :)

Well always depends on the spotter too. The spotter is only as good if he can hit something. Two man teams can also set up a distraction and use the sniper to ambush while the spotter attacts the attention in a different direction. There are so many tatics you can do with two people. With a lone wolf, you really only have like 2, camp and run :)

This post has been edited by Koko: Sep 30 2007, 10:34 PM

Never need a spotter, never wanted one. I have always stand by my word and said that
one person moving around in the brush is harder to spot than two. In acutallity, I would rather
have another sniper across the position that im holding and to my far right, and make a triangular
kill zone.

As far as if the opposition comes close, I have yet to see an opportunity like such to un-holster
thine pistol. A pistol is a great weapon to use even if there is a moron screaming 300 bbs at you.
although the pistol is great, I still never leave home without my mp5sd6 (before that it was 2 pistols
and a utg mp5 XD) and to all the is good and colorful , I feel bad for the mother that has the pair big enough
to enter that kinda kill zone with intent on sniper hunting.

-edit- DO NOT QUOTE THIS WHOLE POST. SAVE SPACE.

Okay, I've been away from the forums for the past few days, but I'd like to weigh in on this topic, especially because I've spent a good amount of time working with a spotter. There's a lot of things that need to be addressed here. I'm going to assume, for the purposes of my discussion here, that the spotter we're using is an experienced airsofter, not the Newbie that wants to see what it's like being a sniper and gives away your position. Do we automatically say that they're going to make a good spotter?

Absolutely not.

I think it's probably undeniable that a single person can sneak into tricky positions much more easily than a two man team. The more people there are, the more chances for a random movement to catch the attention of an enemy patrol. This is especially true in the close ranges of airsoft. A good sniper team, which may involve two snipers, a sniper and a spotter, or any larger combination of these roles, must be able to work together fluidly and dynamically, often without the need for communication. As a consequence, the ONLY times I will play with a spotter in a larger skirmish or op are when I have trained with that person in that role many times. Familiarity, experience, and skill are all central aspects of a good sniper team.

*************************Why are spotters not commonly used in airsoft?***********************

Many airsofters do not play with spotters, and in fact tend to think that spotters are useless in airsoft. This is almost universally because they either are not skilled enough to function as part of a sniper team, or, as is more common among experienced snipers, because they have not trained with a spotter, so that they can gain familiarity. I speculate that this is because it's hard to put together a sniper team and train together, due to our busy schedules; after all, it's hard enough to put together a casual airsoft game to practice, and it's a common practice to switch up teams at least a little bit. It's the rare airsofter who practices outside of games and skirmishes, and then it's usually just assault practice. It's almost unheard of to have a sniper team practice.

So, the casual reader is probably thinking that I think that spotters are not generally useful, and, if you haven't brought a partner, that's pretty close to the truth. However, it would be completely unwarranted to assume that spotters are not useful. A well-trained sniper team is orders of magnitude more effective than a single lone-wolf sniper, no matter how good he or she might be.

***************************A Brief Guide To Spotting****************************************

Okay, so let me give you a brief guide to the different ways I've been used in sniper teams, and some tactics that have been helpful in this capacity. I want to cover a sniper/sniper team, and a sniper/spotter team, and discuss why a sniper team is so much more effective. I want to begin by remarking that a sniper team does not need to stay right next to each other like you see in the movies. As a general rule, each must have a shot on their partners position, to cover against flanking and ambush; that way the partner can extract under cover fire, and you have the option of laying an ambush on the attacking/flanking party.

First, a sniper team might include multiple snipers, all armed with bolt-action rifles. Okay, so many of you are wondering why I might suggest such a course, since, like Hari, you typically think of spotters as escorts, who are there almost exclusively as defenders for the sniper. Multiple sniper teams are most useful if you're going for kills, or providing long-range fire support, or in a purely recon role.

Why is this useful? Another sniper provides firepower magnification. How many times have you fired on a patrol and taken down one player, only to have the others scatter and flank you. Two snipers working together as a team can eliminate two targets on the initial hit, or, if you're not firing at the same time, can confuse the enemy as to your position, or even simulate an ambush by a full squad. Because airsoft snipers are almost always lone wolf, if you attack with a sniper/sniper team, the opposition almost always assumes that they're under attack by one sniper. By having two snipers attacking, you can get more shots because it will be harder for them to triangulate your position by gauging your shots. More, two snipers can cover different angles, and it's almost impossible to get good cover against two snipers working together. You can coordinate targeting, and just destroy full squads in a matter of a few minutes.

More, as for defense, keeping your position hidden is your biggest defense. If you both stay moving, in most cases you can wipe out the entire group of attackers before they can compromise your position. If they chase one sniper, the other can take them. If they split their forces, you can each flank a group, or cause them to fire on each other. In a target-rich environment, more snipers can take down more targets faster, often before they can close far enough to eliminate your range advantage, especially if you're retreating as they advance.

In a recon role, many people might think that two snipers wouldn't be useful, but a sniper team can provide much better coverage of an area. More, in an observational role, neither person will be doing much moving, and movement is the major thing that draws eyes. If they don't move, it's highly unlikely that they'll be spotted. Forget this business about a spotter giving away your position; in a recon role, two sets of eyes are better than one. You can take smaller fields of vision as your area of responsibility, which cuts down on the likelihood that you'll miss something, and increases your ability to take down targets of opportunity without having to move a lot, which might give away your position.

Okay, so chapter 2. Having a spotter with an AEG.

In the Army, the spotter will typically carry an M16/M203 combination, which is also effective in airsoft. Personally, I prefer to use a DMR (usually an M14, Mk12 mod 0, or SR25) as my spotters weapon. I want to be able to get the same kind of accuracy as my sniper, and, in target-rich environments, I need to be able to function as a sniper and lay down some precision fire. The spotter should always take point, and be in position near the sniper to cover their flank, and be able to cover their retreat. Because range estimation and confirmation of kill is not necessary in airsoft, the spotter should typically NOT be next to the sniper. They should be either in a defensive position, or in a position where they can fire on the sniper's field of fire as well, to take down a charge. The spotter should always be an experienced sniper, or at least a DM, and should work with the sniper to coordinate fire and provide cover fire. This particular type of sniper team is the most versatile, since they can function as an attack squad as well. The DM/spotter can engage in covered assaults, or can function in closer-in assaults. Often-times, the spotter will be farther up, and will engage targets from within AEG range, while under cover from the sniper, who will typically provide support for the spotter, as opposed to functioning the other way round.

In all of these cases, the sniper team should have radios with throat mics, and should have a dedicated channel that's separate from the squad/team channel. Communication is essential. Traveling as part of a sniper team allows firepower multiplication, increased survivability profile, and coordinated assaults. A sniper team can function much more effectively than a single sniper, and can even pose as an assault team.

As a side note, the sniper doesn't HAVE to carry a GBB. I personally find that AEP's are much more effective in skirmishes. I also like to carry a couple claymores; those can be very useful to a sniper, especially a lone-wolf sniper.

Anyways, that's my ridiculously long opinion on the subject. Please continue the discussion.

This post has been edited by The Crimson Falcon: Oct 1 2007, 12:16 AM

/agree TCF

The guys I work with all know where I'll be starting and alternate positions I'm likely to move to so I can reference them easily. They feel a lot happier knowing I have their backs and extra eyes on, and they can usually direct my attention to where they see movement / etc. Spotters are specially helpful for those of us who spend most of our time looking through the scope with it's more limited FOV!

I'm in the Chapter 2 of RCF =P

But I'm agaist AEP as secondary, I can't carry more weight and stay with the same mobility as I have with a GBB. If I'm doing my job done, I don't need the AEP firepower, and my "spotter" have to save me at this point.

The 2 snipers team It's a good idea, but in my team there are 1 sniper, 1 DM (my spotter with a M16 upgraded or something worst, and a ghillie too), and no one else that want to be in that roles.

In multiteam games we played with other sniper teams, buy I didn't really see that was better than be alone with my mate, probably because we don't train together and we act more like "3 teams alone with similar task", than 3 team together working to success.

I carry a CM.030 Glock 18c while I play the role as a sniper. It's a great support weapon while moving or reloading. Also, it has a great ROF if needed when someone locates you and rushes your position. Also, I am not going to blast my friends in the back from 20 feet away with a rifle shooting 450+.

If you like the GBB - have you thought of a Non-blow back? It's a lot quieter so you'd give up less taking a pistol shot. I carry the TM SOCOM, it's quiet and fairly accurate and shoots plenty hard. I do also carry a G18 AEP, the increased ROF is nice but it's weak as hell and not as accurate.

I think that when you "Lone Wolf" it, or even when you are working with others (but they don't necessarily stay next to you) it's important to have some type of decent secondary, I would think even up to a MP5K or MP7 wouldn't slow anyone down too much.

This post has been edited by JWaite: Oct 1 2007, 10:41 AM

Hari, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking AEG's. I also do not think that MP7's and MP5K's make good sniper sidearms, since they're just much too bulky. But an AEP is the same size as a GBB, and often lighter; plus, the magazines are much smaller, so you can carry three mags for every 1 GBB.

I also use the TM benelli shorty as a backup on a UTG 3 point sling. I only ever used a spotter once and it was mainly for flank and rear protection.

Yeah a NBB is nicer, but I didn't have/want one for 2 main reasons:

-I had the TM MK 23 SOCOM , and...long trigger, awful useless mags (Leaks everywhere!! omg, I wanted to broke the mags in TM designer), and the Mk 23 was bigger than I want (not heavy, only big)-

-I have to admit that I like the Cool factor of a GBB (I love the blowback xD), and I don't use the sidearm too often to need that extra stealth (as I say, I want to have the sidearm coz it give me security, but really I don't use it everytime, and if the target it's close, it doest matter is a NBB or a GBB , it's going to be eliminated =P).

Belive me, an MP5/Mp7 slow me a lot and after a few hour I will be tired and will hate the "bulky"sidearm, I don't want to carry something heavier than a Beretta/M9/Glock....I have an USP, a Beretta and a G26, and I never use the USP if I have other choice.






Thats true, it's a good choice. The only thing I have agaist AEP it's that they have less range (at least all that I see in games don't match my GBB range by far, and I don't need a long range sidearm, but prefer something some) than a GBB or NBB and.....the "fashion factor" xDD. It's a game and sometimes I choose something cooler instead of something better but AEP are all right and probably it's the best option as sidearm.



PS: Sorry for hijack the topic into sidearm choice =P

That's the only problem with the AEP although the CM.030 does have full auto capabilities. As a "last ditch" effort it works out quite nice sometimes. And not to mention, we play alot in the snow where a gbb would be useless during one season of the year.

Do any snipers here use radios instead of a spotter? Our team was toying around with the notion but never used them.

This post has been edited by affrey: Oct 1 2007, 12:11 PM

I really don't know anyone that doesn't use a radio. Without one, there's no way to coordinate attacks, or relay information to your team.

There no main reason for not using both at the same time =P

A radio it's always there, when your spotter is eliminated you still have a team.

CF: excellent...


As I said before:
Your rifle may be your life, but your radio is your team's life.

Back in topic, who you think that could be a spotter?

I explain myself what I'm talking about. CF said that a spotter could be another sniper, I say a DM could serve also, but I really think that an "assaulter" can't be anyone spotter.
You need someone with the same style of play, or as close as you can, so she/he must have some skills (not only stealh, ...patience too, and some others) if we want a spotter not an "escort only".

In fact, if we want an "escort only", the player must be special too, because the "sniper team" is not always in the middle of the action, so, we need someone like us, not a Kamikaze BB spreading machine.

It dependes how you understand the "spotter" role too.

A couple things. First, a sidearm is a close-in weapon. Range is irrelevant. My CM030 and DE USP's can all hit accurately out to 70 feet, and past that, my sniper rifle will suffice. A GBB isn't accurate past 100 feet anyways, and its a SIDEARM. You shouldn't really be using it in most situations, except when you're moving upright. The full-auto capabilities and mag size are a huge advantage, and with the hopup properly adjusted, they can reach out to 200 feet, surprisingly. Not accurately, but you CAN get hits.

Back on topic, I agree that your average assaulter cannot just jump into spotting. That being said, familiarity is key; if you work with them, they'll pick up the skills and play-style that will make them an effective spotter. But if they insist on sticking to the assault mentality, no, they're not going to be a worthwhile part of a sniper team.

I don't quite agree.

I personally play a variety of roles, depending on the gun I want to use that day. When I use my M4, it's not unusual for me to pick up 3 kills in the first 30 seconds. Other times I'll hang back to direct forces, or rain down fire just out of range with my M14. Or maybe I'll sneak up on an enemy squad using my mp5.

It always depends on who you're talking about. Just because someone typically plays the assault role doesn't mean they don't know how to use stealth.

hmm...
I never have a spotter but I usually work in a group of 3-5 snipers (we're on defensive) and we call out all the enemies we see so we have a better chance of hitting them....

I don't really see those guns as too bulky, I think the main problem I would have carrying one would be that they'd get full of dirt, you'd have to find some way to keep it secure in the small of your back under the ghilie and not tangled up in it. Leg and chest holsters have never worked very well for me personally for weapons that big, which is why I avoid them, but if someone figured out a way to keep them clean and out of the way and not tangled, more power to you.

I can see why some people might feel the need to bridge the gap between a pistol with an effective range of 70 feet, and the minimum engagement distance for a rifle shooting 600fps. I'm just not one of those guys.

I think that in airsoft the sniper usually has the best picture of the battle. So rather than just controlling one person, why not the whole team?

You mean like giving orders? Impractical. In a large game, a captain has to hang back and coordinate his team, not be crawling around in the brush.

This post has been edited by bat21win: Oct 2 2007, 03:16 PM

how would the sniper have the best view of the battle?
most snipers arn't in the obvious spots (like on the hill where he can snipe all...)

Because the sniper lost the stealth if he/she is always talking and giving orders.

Because a sniper have a lot of thing to be done and giving orders only become more harder.


Thats my point of view.


Anyway, I use to play with 1 or 2 "spotters" (I don't see they as escorts nor a spotter, .....nor snipers either, they are special, thats why I call "airsoft spotter"), and I have the luck that we play together for a lonnnngggg time, but when we try to play with other snipers (big multiteam games)....we see that the "untrained" people make us work worse than playing us alone

I mean in smaller games

I've found many times that, not only do I usually play a sharpshooter role rather than actual sniper, but I tend to know whats going on more than anyone else.

I really cant remember the last time I hid in one spot for more than a half hour. I'm always moving around, I remain stealthy of course and use precision fire, but I always know where the enemy is way before the rest of my team.

Lets imagine that a sniper is playing on a team of 8 people. And they are playing in an environment without huge, tactically significant geological features, like an open field or flat woodland. And naturally the squad forms a firing line with the sniper in back keeping track of his 7 men. He spots a tightly packed group of like 4 guys ahead with his scope. So he orders 5 guys to attack straight on, and the others to flank left or right or something. All the while his 7 men have not seen the enemy yet. Plus as his men move in he could of crouse take shots here and there, but of course, that'd be performing more sharpshooting than actual sniping.

Something like that could work I imagine

This post has been edited by Skate Rat 19: Oct 2 2007, 07:29 PM