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> R-hop installation manual (Necro Exempt)
sniperelite7
post Aug 23 2011, 11:04 PM
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Looking around for new buckings to test as I wait for the heavier BB's to come in. Since the r-hop allows for you to have the nub seperate of the bucking, what buckings would you recommend.

I remember you mentioning the madbull shark buckings, specifically the silicon one and I am kind of looking at those buckings because of the extra ridging inside the lips that helps seal air.

But what about the prommy red? Or is that still to hard of a bucking to use.
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Age
post Aug 23 2011, 11:50 PM
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Yes, MadBull buckings are great for this. I use them for all my r-hop installs and everything else.


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sniperelite7
post Aug 23 2011, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (Age @ Aug 24 2011, 12:50 AM) *
Yes, MadBull buckings are great for this. I use them for all my r-hop installs and everything else.



What does your fps consistency look like? I think I've pretty much sealed the gun uptight. Precise enough to see a consistency difference between KSC .3(+/- 3.5) and bioshot .3(+/- 1.5). Basically something that can handle blow by from a high fps gun, as I feel that, thats the only place where air can be leaking out of now.
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Age
post Aug 24 2011, 02:17 AM
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My consistency? -/+ 0-.05

This post has been edited by Age: Aug 24 2011, 02:17 AM


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hunterseeker5
post Aug 25 2011, 09:52 AM
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I've just released the Ice R-hop (IR-hop and IER-hop) a cold tolerant version of the R-hop. It works year round, or in a GBBR where cold propane is constantly being squirted onto the hop rubber. Installation remains unaffected. Thanks to Skag187 for naming inspiration. (and yes he is certified to install it)


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dASm
post Aug 25 2011, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (hunterseeker5 @ Aug 25 2011, 10:52 AM) *
I've just released the Ice R-hop (IR-hop and IER-hop) a cold tolerant version of the R-hop. It works year round, or in a GBBR where cold propane is constantly being squirted onto the hop rubber. Installation remains unaffected. Thanks to Skag187 for naming inspiration. (and yes he is certified to install it)


What happens to the normal R-hop in these conditions?


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hunterseeker5
post Aug 25 2011, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (dASm @ Aug 25 2011, 02:17 PM) *
What happens to the normal R-hop in these conditions?


The same thing that happens to all rubber hops as they get colder: their surface lubricity and hardness increase. The regular R-hop is more resistant to this loss of function as compared to a normal hop rubber, but its by no means immune. The ice hops take this a step further allowing minimal changes in point of impact due to temperature fluctuations and allowing full hop function well below the point where you'd go inside because your lungs would freeze when you try to inhale.


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major9
post Aug 25 2011, 02:48 PM
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Having personally used IR-hop,
I actually like it quite a bit, The fact that its semi transparent makes it easier to install, though thats really not the point.
The only thing about IR-hop, is it was just a little more touchy than regular R-hop. Just be warned....

Other than that, I love IR-hop. Using it in a 400 fps AK, I had a confirmed kill (yes...in a real skirmish, not target practicing), at 250 feet.
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Amorton94
post Aug 29 2011, 03:25 PM
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Could either HS5, Major, or Skag make a installation video? I think I'm missing something cuz I'm lost, and I think a video would help me and I'm sure it would others.


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skag187
post Aug 29 2011, 07:08 PM
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sorry the fastest I can put one in, is about 2-4 hours, and you tube won't allow it.

seriously it is a simple but labor/tuning intensive mod, and takes time to get right

no special skills involved, or even special tools, but a "special" level of patience, is preferred


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hunterseeker5
post Sep 1 2011, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (AHP @ Sep 1 2011, 09:41 AM) *
Youtube will not allow you to upload a video on how to install a R-Hop?


No the point Skag is making is that its not difficult to install, its just time consuming and youtube won't allow you to upload a video that is a couple hours long to show the entire process. Maybe I'll shoot a video, but honestly its so f*cking simple to do if you can't grasp it from the description here I'm not sure what will help you.


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msmith14
post Sep 1 2011, 12:37 PM
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Hi, I have a couple questions about the instillation of this mod one is could I use a piece cut from another bucking as the pad that presses on the bb? Do you still have to use the hop up nub? and what do you mean by truing the bucking inside out? Also I must be missing something because why dose it take so long to install if its this simple?

This post has been edited by msmith14: Sep 1 2011, 12:40 PM


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Age
post Sep 1 2011, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (msmith14 @ Sep 1 2011, 01:37 PM) *
Hi, I have a couple questions about the instillation of this mod one is could I use a piece cut from another bucking as the pad that presses on the bb? Do you still have to use the hop up nub? and what do you mean by truing the bucking inside out? Also I must be missing something because why dose it take so long to install if its this simple?


No, you cannot use a piece from another bucking, it would be too thin. The r-hop is much thicker.

Yes, you need some form of a nub to press against the contact patch.

Turning the bucking inside out means just that...turning it inside out...If you can't turn a bucking inside out, chances are you can't install an R-hop.

It takes a long time to fine tune it. All you have to do is make cuts on the sides and shave down material in the center using a rattail file, so it's very simple and easy, it just takes time.


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Amorton94
post Sep 1 2011, 03:13 PM
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Wait you still need a nub? This is what I'm talking about. I must have read through this thread like 8 times and I still missed that you need a nub. Though I'm currently tuning this in an ak, and I don't think that the arm has enough pressure to push this down and keep it down, so a nub would be ineffective, correct?


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Age
post Sep 1 2011, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (Amorton94 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:13 PM) *
Wait you still need a nub? This is what I'm talking about. I must have read through this thread like 8 times and I still missed that you need a nub. Though I'm currently tuning this in an ak, and I don't think that the arm has enough pressure to push this down and keep it down, so a nub would be ineffective, correct?


Yes, you still need a nub, preferably a flat one. I don't recall this guide saying you need a nub either....but did it say you didn't? No.
If the arm itself has enough pressure and the pressure it applied by an even surface then it will work. However I really don't see that being the case, since you shave off the mound in the bucking it decreases the vertical length of the hop up contact area, however it is increase it lengthwise. Because of this, less pressure is needed, so you may think a nub is not needed, however if a nub isn't used, it will not apply any pressure at all. So you still need a nub, you just don't use it as much as you did before....See what I'm saying?

This post has been edited by Age: Sep 1 2011, 04:08 PM


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cypher235
post Sep 1 2011, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Amorton94 @ Sep 1 2011, 03:13 PM) *
Wait you still need a nub? This is what I'm talking about. I must have read through this thread like 8 times and I still missed that you need a nub. Though I'm currently tuning this in an ak, and I don't think that the arm has enough pressure to push this down and keep it down, so a nub would be ineffective, correct?




You don't necessarily need a nub. You can make it a sort of fixed hop up and tune it for the bb weight that you want to use with that specific gun. This is how I have one of my dmr's setup at the moment. I even removed the hop up arm completely from one of the barrel groups I was testing in it and it still works perfectly.

This post has been edited by cypher235: Sep 1 2011, 04:39 PM
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Amorton94
post Sep 1 2011, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (Age @ Sep 1 2011, 02:57 PM) *
Yes, you still need a nub, preferably a flat one. I don't recall this guide saying you need a nub either....but did it say you didn't? No.
If the arm itself has enough pressure and the pressure it applied by an even surface then it will work. However I really don't see that being the case, since you shave off the mound in the bucking it decreases the vertical length of the hop up contact area, however it is increase it lengthwise. Because of this, less pressure is needed, so you may think a nub is not needed, however if a nub isn't used, it will not apply any pressure at all. So you still need a nub, you just don't use it as much as you did before....See what I'm saying?

No I don't. The hopup chamber presses down on the bucking and patch, so I don't see the need for the nub. Also with the patch being glued to both the barrel and the bucking, wouldn't the nub just distort the concave shape of the patch? I must be overthinking it...

But this is a reason why I would like a guide: I took out my patch to sand down the outside of it, and I put it back in to test it, and the bb's jam. They didn't jam before, but only after I sanded the outside of it. So I'm assuming that's the death of this patch, on to the next one...


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Age
post Sep 1 2011, 10:32 PM
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Actually, in most cases, the arm does not push the contact patch and/or bucking. The arm pushes the nub, and then the nub pushes the contact patch. If done properly, a nub will not deform the contact patch.


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Amorton94
post Sep 2 2011, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (Age @ Sep 1 2011, 09:32 PM) *
Actually, in most cases, the arm does not push the contact patch and/or bucking. The arm pushes the nub, and then the nub pushes the contact patch. If done properly, a nub will not deform the contact patch.

I never said the arm pushes the bucking, or did I? But I'm thinking that the ak hopup arm doesn't have enough pressure to keep the nub where it needs to be.... Either way, I'm still going to try it. Thank you for your help and patience.


QUOTE (krap101 @ Sep 1 2011, 10:27 PM) *
I think you're paying mostly for the machining of the barrel. It looks like the patches are something similar to co2-safe airline tubing for fish tanks or for pop dispensers, in a slightly larger diameter.

Hs5's barrel cutting is a completely different service, not included with the $12 set of patches.


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Airsim14
post Sep 2 2011, 08:02 AM
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QUOTE (Automobilie @ Sep 2 2011, 12:00 AM) *
It's just that I know it can be done much cheaper if you do it yourself. You'll pay $12 for a pair of sorbo pads, but you can buy a pad of sorbothane for $5, cut out your own pads, and end up with 10.


You are paying for the fact that someone actually took the time and effort to invent this thing and figure out what kind of rubber to use.


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Robin-Hood
post Sep 2 2011, 08:18 AM
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It's $12 for 3 including shipping, are you really that stingy? Just pay the guy, he did take the time and effort to develop it and explain the process etc to the community. Unlike some people who would keep it secret and charge $200 for a service to fit it for you. You're effectively looking at $4 for a patch with free shipping, it's hardly expensive.

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Star_folder
post Sep 2 2011, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE (Robin-Hood @ Sep 2 2011, 09:18 AM) *
It's $12 for 3 including shipping, are you really that stingy? Just pay the guy, he did take the time and effort to develop it and explain the process etc to the community. Unlike some people who would keep it secret and charge $200 for a service to fit it for you. You're effectively looking at $4 for a patch with free shipping, it's hardly expensive.

^this. When people are more than willing to pay $15+ for a firefly buffer rubber, and you only get one of those, the $12 price tag for 3 patches is more than reasonable.


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msmith14
post Sep 3 2011, 08:11 AM
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[quote name='Age' date='Sep 1 2011, 02:01 PM' post='18555399']
Yes, you need some form of a nub to press against the contact patch.

What do people use as nubs?

What material do people use as the pad that presses on the bb, and where can I get it?

Also does this mod help with accuracy also, or just range?

This post has been edited by airborne101: Sep 3 2011, 09:35 AM
Reason for edit: Edited for grammar


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major9
post Sep 3 2011, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (msmith14 @ Sep 3 2011, 07:11 AM) *
What do people use as nubs?

What material do people use as the pad that presses on the bb, and where can I get it?

Also does this mod help with accuracy also, or just range?

If your not getting it by now, you just aren't getting it.
Before you do anything else, THOROUGHLY research this topic, and read through this entire thread.

While you don't need a nub, you can use a shaved down firefly buffer, or any other variation like that. Something flat, something soft. Its not real difficult.

The "pad" that presses on the BB, would be R-hop. You order it from Hunterseeker5.

It helps with everything.

Think about it guys, HS5 isn't going to give away what its made of on a public forum like this. Even I don't know what its made out of. Sure, the material may be cheap, like sorbo. But you are paying for the heavy R&D behind such a product, that only hunterseeker5 can do. Its $12 for 3 regular patches....if you are to cheap for that, than you shouldn't even own an airsoft gun.
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sniperelite7
post Sep 5 2011, 10:14 PM
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After having some success with my last install I decided to lengthen and add more depth to the madbull barrel window. I am now using 3/4 of a regular r-hop patch.

Upon installing the r-hop I noticed something that I have noticed on my previous attempts. The profile in the barrel is correct, a shallow U. Yet when the nub pushes down, one half of the patch, on the "gearbox" side will rise into the barrel. The other half does not begin to protrude into the barrel at all. The nub I am using is flat and fills the whole window of the hopup chamber for the nub to go into. Any thoughts?
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Bomino
post Sep 6 2011, 12:25 PM
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It'll be nice to have at least one video up with the r-hop in action. But with two completely different guns, I really don't think the comparison will be relevant. Two completely different hop up chambers, different barrels (im assuming), different commpression consistencies, fps, etc. You get the point. These all play a role in how accurate the gun will be.

Now if you could do an accuracy test with your AUG as is right now, and then again after the r-hop is installed, that would make for a much better comparison IMO. however, if this is not possible, I'm sure the comparison you have in mind will suffice for a very general idea :D

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Scott Sutherland
post Sep 6 2011, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (Bomino @ Sep 6 2011, 01:25 PM) *
It'll be nice to have at least one video up with the r-hop in action. But with two completely different guns, I really don't think the comparison will be relevant. Two completely different hop up chambers, different barrels (im assuming), different commpression consistencies, fps, etc. You get the point. These all play a role in how accurate the gun will be.

Now if you could do an accuracy test with your AUG as is right now, and then again after the r-hop is installed, that would make for a much better comparison IMO. however, if this is not possible, I'm sure the comparison you have in mind will suffice for a very general idea :D


Comparing anything with the a&k m249 hop up is silly, that has to be the poorest performing hop up in existence.

I have three of these on the way from hs5 and if I successfully install them will gladly make a video comparing it in my sr25 with rhop and with separate hop up barrel combo, using same gun.

Someone that has done this mod must have another hop up/barrel in an m4 that could be changed out in about 1m.....
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buppus
post Sep 6 2011, 05:29 PM
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@ HS5 - An R-hop installation video tutorial would be a very good idea - and it would probably remove the fear factor of those who have never installed one before and are afraid they're going to mess it up. It might take 5 hours to produce such a video (doubtful), but to explain and demonstrate the concepts shouldn't take more than 5 min of film. I think it would boost consumer confidence immensely. You're all about customer service, right?


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hunterseeker5
post Sep 7 2011, 10:46 AM
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I leave for a long weekend and everything a-censored.gif slides sideways here.

I'm not trying to claim the R-hop is something it isn't. If you want to be short sighted and look only at what is of benefit to you then yes there is no escaping the fact that you're paying ~12$ for what is in essence a few very small pieces of rubber. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that such a small volume of rubber, in and of itself, doesn't cost 12$. In a quote of mine somebody sigged I said that hop rubbers themselves don't seem that expensive until you think about how much you are paying for a piece of rubber made to a lower standard than a condom. But if you take a step back and actually look at the everything as a whole what are you really getting? Well there are the basics that you're getting small pieces of rubber shipped to your door for 12$. There is a bit more going on than that though. There is packaging costs, shipping costs, and the time spent talking with you and processing the product and the sale. Its also enough to do three guns if you know what you're doing. Thats more for your money than the hop bucking. (which by the way you can cast yourself as well) But if I may recommend a slightly larger view here. I had this final product, what you the user get, in development for about 6 months. Predecessors of it had been in the works for years. Believe me this was a long time in coming, and has had a lot of testing behind it. There are also several things going on here with this system, some specific to AEGs, which other designs don't address. The point is that there may be a bit more going on than you think. Not all materials work well, last long, and quite a few leave a residue on your barrel. On top of that I've spent countless hours writing up this manual and answering questions here and in all my different inboxes. Believe me when I say I'm not getting rich here 12$ at a time.

So can you technically build an R-hop yourself for less money? If you get it right your first try and can order just as much material as you're going to need maybe. There are lots of different materials out there which can act as a contact patch, and I encourage people to try some of them. The bottom line though is that I'd really appreciate it if people would leave my installation manual as such and NOT use it as a convenient place to backward engineer my R-hop because its not helping the people who are having trouble get their questions answered. If you think its a ripoff, you have something against me personally, or you just want to talk about something else thats great but please don't post it here. This thread really is about me trying to help people, and I don't have mod privileges here so I can't go through and clean this thread up so its easier for people to read. Its also against the rules to post links over to ASM so I can't just direct you to the more concise, and identically titled, thread which is under my personal support and development subforum over there.

And as to the numerous requests for a video. It really is super simple. Never the less I've shot some video showing how it goes together in as simple a way as I can. Its crap footage so I'm not sure if I'm going to upload it, but I guess the real problem is that I don't see anything in the video which isn't clearly explained here. If your reading comprehension is horrific then maybe this would be of some use to you I guess....... *shrug*
And while I'm on the subject of videos I keep hearing a persistent request for a "proof" of some kind showing what I've done with this system. That I'll never do (feel free to stop asking although I know you won't). The reason I won't is because such videos are a mecca to trolls, critics, and disbelievers. They're so easy to fake, and since I'm pretty heavily invested in this product, nobody has any reason to believe me. For that reason I let my users speak for me here. If you want a video or posting of results you'd best ask them, although most high level techs have seen similar skepticism over their demo videos, usually over something that isn't even of financial benefit to them, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're reluctant as well. Perhaps then instead of asking for other people's results you should splurge a whopping 12$ and try it yourself, or even try making them from scratch. Maybe you'll manage the next amazing feat of distance shooting.

Is all this reasonable? Is there something here I've said which is unreasonable or you disagree with? I really do value the input of people who are reasonable, intelligent, and somewhat eloquent. If you have a serious issue or request I'd be glad to hear it. If you'd just like to complain then please do save it. And one more thing. For everyone who is complaining that the install is too difficult..... all my testers used this product without any installation guide. We would have a conversation about what the result is supposed to be like, and then they'd have at it. As a result THEY (big thanks here, you know who you are) developed a lot of the installation techniques which are most effective.

This post has been edited by airborne101: Sep 7 2011, 07:21 PM


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hunterseeker5
post Sep 8 2011, 11:06 AM
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Ok I'm a sucker and I caved to all you complainers. I shot this video a while ago but I kept it private and had a few people review it quickly to see if it contained the appropriate content. So there you go your video of an R-hop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8VXscCXFjo

(if this counts as an outside link and is against the rules I apologize please don't hesitate to take the link down)


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gamerfreak
post Sep 8 2011, 01:49 PM
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Is there an optional length or depth that would give the best result? I am considering Dremeling my prommy or madbull. Any ideas?


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hunterseeker5
post Sep 8 2011, 06:45 PM
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When I mill a barrel I usually justify the new window based on the depth of the old window. That probably wasn't helpful though. :P

Your ideal depth depends on your objective. Shallow windows are much easier to tune an R-hop for. Deeper windows are more difficult but contact more of the bb. The window you know is too deep when you are more than 3mm below the ceiling of the bore.


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buppus
post Sep 8 2011, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (hunterseeker5 @ Sep 8 2011, 10:06 AM) *
Ok I'm a sucker and I caved to all you complainers. I shot this video a while ago but I kept it private and had a few people review it quickly to see if it contained the appropriate content. So there you go your video of an R-hop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8VXscCXFjo

(if this counts as an outside link and is against the rules I apologize please don't hesitate to take the link down)

Not to be ungrateful, but that video only shows a pre-fitted patch getting slapped into a barrel window. I meant a video showing the process of trimming (where and how) and fitting the contact patch, and what it looks like when it's properly fitted.

PWEEEEEEEZE?? mf_followthroughfart.gif help.gif hug.gif


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major9
post Sep 8 2011, 10:29 PM
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Its really not that difficult. Heck, I have gotten away with using sharpened scissors as of late. Fitting it to the window is honestly the easiest part. Its working with the rat-tail that is extremely tedious and time consuming.
The best way to learn about it, is to try it. At $12 shipped for 3 patches, I don't see any good reason not to try it out.
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Scott Sutherland
post Sep 9 2011, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (hunterseeker5 @ Sep 9 2011, 12:37 AM) *
I'm going to kill myself. I'm just going to stand up and punch my own ticket..... REALLY? Are you serious? I don't mean to unnecessarily chastise you but I mean if you don't have the imagination and dexterity to figure out and then wield sandpaper I really honestly don't think this one is for you. The process itself would make quite a long boring video, and you couldn't see anything anyway because my fingers would just cover everything as I tried to hold it. Rat tail file, abrasive tip on a dremmel, sandpaper, knife, whatever its all pretty much just cutting a groove. Its not magical....

That gives me another thought. I wonder if you could use a freshly sharpened plane to precisely reduce the height of the contact patch. They usually have nice carbon steel blades which will take a very sharp edge if you know how to put one on.



I received my patches from HS5 yesterday, cut them, installed in a madbull tbb, have it in the general ball park (still slightly overhopped), in about 30-45m..... Thats including the time it took to look for where my son hid the allen wrenches. Protip: Shishkabob skewers with tightly wrapped 400grit sandpaper work nicely.

Unless you are operating with a bent chromosome or two you should be able to handle this upgrade.....

I will save the review for how awesome it is until I get a place that I can actually stretch its legs, and until I get the slight overhop cut out of it. The preliminary on it though is def looks like more range, now if it still has that range without the overhop then it may just be magical LOL.
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ikliiu
post Sep 9 2011, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE (hunterseeker5 @ Sep 8 2011, 07:45 PM) *
Your ideal depth depends on your objective. Shallow windows are much easier to tune an R-hop for. Deeper windows are more difficult but contact more of the bb. The window you know is too deep when you are more than 3mm below the ceiling of the bore.


What's the ideal depth for a auto set up or a DMR set up? Also, what is a recommended way to increase the depth of the barrel?
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skag187
post Sep 9 2011, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (ikliiu @ Sep 9 2011, 04:02 PM) *
What's the ideal depth for a auto set up or a DMR set up? Also, what is a recommended way to increase the depth of the barrel?


as stated "ideal" depth is >3mm
full-auto, or DMR makes no difference until you start getting into er-hops, but those aren't for full auto or semi auto per say they are for heavier ammo

ask yourself, are you going to be using .25 - .28 bbs? or using .36 - .40 bbs?

if your using the heaviest ammo you can find, get setup for an er-hop

as far as how to increase the depth of the barrel window? a File comes to mind, or a mill


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Airsim14
post Sep 9 2011, 10:53 PM
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I used a file for several of mine. Works pretty well. Only problem is that you'll up with metal on the inside of your barrel window that you have to scrape off. I used an old exacto knife for that.


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hunterseeker5
post Sep 9 2011, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (Scott Sutherland @ Sep 9 2011, 03:10 PM) *
I received my patches from HS5 yesterday, cut them, installed in a madbull tbb, have it in the general ball park (still slightly overhopped), in about 30-45m..... Thats including the time it took to look for where my son hid the allen wrenches. Protip: Shishkabob skewers with tightly wrapped 400grit sandpaper work nicely.

Unless you are operating with a bent chromosome or two you should be able to handle this upgrade.....

I will save the review for how awesome it is until I get a place that I can actually stretch its legs, and until I get the slight overhop cut out of it. The preliminary on it though is def looks like more range, now if it still has that range without the overhop then it may just be magical LOL.



Thank god...... I suppose to be fair normally the only people who come here would be the ones with problems but still its good to hear. :) I didn't think it was that hard when I designed it.....


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post Sep 9 2011, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (hunterseeker5 @ Sep 9 2011, 09:24 PM) *
Thank god...... I suppose to be fair normally the only people who come here would be the ones with problems but still its good to hear. :) I didn't think it was that hard when I designed it.....

Trial and error is how I learned about internals of airsoft guns. Some people are too scared to try it out themselves and they always want someone to walk them through it.
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