If it has been done I can find no evidence using Google after several hours of searching with all manner of variance in terms and meaning of words.

So after being completely let down with stock TM G-spec the gun is now WAY more accurate but still not good enough. Better than most I would venture a guess but not good enough. I just want to target shoot in my back yard. I did some analysis and I definitely I found the item causing the biggest variance and I found a way to control it. Ever shot a match air rifle, booooringgggg. These airsoft guns are fun but accuracy leaves something to be desired for target shooting. It is the nature of a round projectile and all the variables acting on it. Like a baseball pitcher.

I am working with a machine shop to set up a CNC to fab the solution which I will not mention what it is. I believe the solution can be made of hard nylon plastic but it may be metal. We plan on making 6 of them with variations to asses the effects either side of what I think is optimal.

So either this will not do as much as I thought or it will completely change the air soft sniper game. Or in my case make these fun to shoot toys a legitimate target shooting machine. Not match air quality mind you but above current toy level accuracy and consistency would be significantly improved. Imagine actually hitting the bulls eye at 75 feet all day long not just the occasional lucky shot. Well... all that or it will not do anything or it may make things worse ha ha. For a few hundred bucks I am willing to find out just to satisfy my curiosity.

We'll see in a few weeks. For now I have more mods to so and I need to order new barrels again, stock, fab barrel spacers out of aluminum for the silencer, I want another PDI piston to make changes too, and I need to have the bore up receiver opened up like the stock one is and so on so I have other things to work on as well as the new CNC that I hope works.

Meeting with the machine shop next week, probably Thursday. Who knows, maybe there is a market for the device which I have not mentioned what it is. Chances are I'll get lazy after I complete the mod though. Not looking for money so that is not a motivator.

I can not image for the life of me why nobody has done this. Hell, maybe it is a REALLY bad idea and I am just too damn stupid to know it. I'll make it first, test it and then report if it is worth a damn.

This post has been edited by ebeck: Feb 17 2010, 08:56 PM

...did you say what it is at any point in there because I cant tell. Im not very good at reading.

I think he plans on making an aluminum spacer?

...

No I did not say what it is.

Yes I am making aluminum spacers for the long barrel to go through the G-spec silencer. That is not what I am talking about.

It sounds like he is talking about making a custom hop up chamber, hop up arm, bucking or something of the like.

There have been alot of people that make custom arms and what not ..... but I don't believe any of them are making custom hopup chambers. Would be nice to see a Tanaka type hopup for the VSR.

Heading to machine shop today. I realized last night this requires 2 parts to maximize effect. So I need to have 2 new parts machined It never ends does it. Too much fun though, the engineering is more fun that shooting them actually ha ha.


Assuming this is not a stupid idea and it was not done because it is stupid ha ha.

Wait. Why exactly have you not said what the modification is? I saw aluminum barrel spacers, but then soon afterwards a "That's not what I'm talking about". Please tell us what you are doing. This is one very vague thread and seems as a way for you to brag about what your doing, but you even fail at that because you don't even say what it is that you are doing. How about you do your modification and if it turns out successful and benefits your gun, you come back and then write about it because it doesn't seem like you're asking if it will work. Please.

I dropped the gun off a the machine shop today. Will take a few days to measure out.

OK well aluminum barrel spacers would not change anything except for being cool and being able to say "I have aluminum barrel spacers". Now THAT would be bragging. ha ha.

Just trying to let fellow VSR shooters know there is someone thinking hard and trying to improve the gun even more.

Sorry I mentioned it. You got it, I'll leave now.

This post has been edited by ebeck: Feb 18 2010, 05:37 PM

Just me or would aluminum spacers increase vibrations... And add weight to the front. I dunno. Whatever. I'm interested in seeing what you got going though.
From your vague description it seems like your thinking about designing nonspherical BBs. Then maybe mess around with producing rifling..? Nah im probably way off.

That was my first reaction. Ebeck I apologize, I re-read my first post and realized how rude it sounded. Non-airsoft frustration built up. Anyways, I'm curious as to how it (whatever that may be ) comes out. Get back to us ASAP.

I've actually seen several guns able to hit a bulls eye at about 75 yards. A member on asr noobie and TCF have claimed (and with vids and pics) near quarter size groupings at 150-200 feet. But by all means, you have gotten my curiosity. Keep up the innovations.

Got the first batch from the machine shop, few problems with tolerances I'll have to adjust it assuming it works. I'll test this weekend. It has been slow I started to recover from an MX crash and my femur and arm and ankle started to heal so I was back taking my son to the track and I started to ride again so this kind of fell in priority as interest shifted. You know how that goes.

Yes, it is a completely new hop-Up design. On paper there is a critical flaw with hop up designs in general that at least on paper, this will correct. Now only of real world worked as good as what is on paper ha ha. We'll see though it may totally suck.

If it works there are 4 other things I have a much much better design for that finished in CAD already and is not theoretical like this hop up is, they will definitely work and work better for certian and look better to boot. Got a shop to make polished stainless 500mm barrels to go with it if it pans out and I can have them made and sell them 1/2 the price of what others are going for. Unfortunately the barrel design is specific to this hop up.

Ahh yes, only if this works out ha ha, who knows I may be on crack and this may simply be the most stupid idea ever ha ha. In that case I'll focus back on MX bikes and it was a fun diversion while I was recovering and in a wheel chair and I can honestly say that I did try something new for you guys ha ha.

Actually designed a whole new gun including stock around this technology but I think it would break rules of the game. I just target shoot so 1000 fps is great for me, not sure if I will build one. It all depends on if this works ha ha, talk about pressure...

Maybe it will work maybe it will not, we'll know soon enough. Nothing ventured nothing gained and all that ha ha...

Here is a sneak peek at the billet T6 chamber prototype, I got 5 of them in this latest batch to work with and refine...
[deleted pic] patent attorney insisted ha ha.

This post has been edited by ebeck: May 18 2010, 11:03 PM

Would these be available for the general public to buy? If you can prove with pictures and videos that this new chamber and barrel system can make better groupings and at better ranges than a Noobie's TDC chamber + TF system can, I'd be in-sises.

so a new type of hop up, that sounds ok, but going back to the guy who said non spherical bbs with rifling, the bbs would have to be non spherical but they would also have to be heavier so it doesnt just make it turn off course

Are you on the verge of a 1000 fps VSR based, springer airsoft gun? I'm a plinker too, never having shot anything but metal or paper targets.

If you get into these high velocities, a whole range of airgun (750-1000 fps) specific target sets/systems become functional for airsoft.

If it works out...I hope you'll let us know.

Very early tests shows trajectory straight as a freaking arrow. It definitely works. The trick is how precise is it? Not sure yet. Initial goal is to be able to do less than a dime size grouping at 75 feet. Preferably 12mm groupings. You know actually use the scope for target shooting. But it will be in testing and refinement for weeks.

I surprisingly found that if I cranked the hop up to super human levels it worked better, and frankly I thought it would not ad that it would jam. Pretty sure I can go 300 feet with quarter size groupings but I will have to test.

This is the second batch and I will need to order another R&D set to finalize. Damn R&D is expensive ha ha. I have a whole slew of parts in CAD.

As far as being available, not sure, maybe, I just got sick of targeting in and not having the BB go where the cross hairs are. I mean what is the point of shooting if it is not precise. Accuracy is a shooter issue. Precision is a function of the gun. It really just took a study of the BB leaving the barrel at slow speed to discover the key. A real eye opener.....

This post has been edited by ebeck: May 18 2010, 09:41 PM

Quarter groupings at 300 feet...? I'm gonna be honest I find that very hard to believe. Though if you do get this to work then oh hot dam nice job.
Good luck. I'm glad your design worked nicely

Yep, like I said, "I THINK I CAN". I never said I did. I said "I think I can". Hard to believe, yeah I agree, for me too actually. I think I can or at least that is what I am trying to do.

First I need to prove out 50 and 75 foot groupings of a dime or less. Once I gt past that then I will scale it out and alter the design and hopefully end up with a design that fits all around with some sacrifice here and there to get gains elsewhere.

I know it works. I do not know how precise it is. When I use targets I will know for sure. Obviously I need empirical data. I m not much into qualitative data I prefer quantitative data. When I post targets you and I will know for sure.

Until then, I am basically just hopeful is all.

Quarter groupings at 100 yards is the goal. Will I get there? Not sure, but I am hopeful ha ha.



This post has been edited by ebeck: May 18 2010, 10:11 PM

Sounds intresting. are you gonna show of more of the device any time soon? I can belive of the 300 foot shot posibility in a cloosed no wind enviroment but even with wind 300 feet would be hard to get quater groupings...there is just too much varience in wind speeds and paterns. I would not be suprised if u get 2-3 foot groupings at 300 feet though (wich will still be amazing) but that is at 1000 fps >.>

Hey well thanks for all the encouragement guys! This is why I stuck with it. Rather than attacking me you all were encouraging. I may give away a few prototypes to you all as I move forward.

So you guys tell me, I don't play airsoft how far do you need it to be accurate? 100 feet 150 feet? I think will be able to do quarter groupings at that distance. I hope ha ha.

I realize 300 feet is long for these guns and 2-3 foot groupings means guaranteed chest shots. I suppose that would be good now that you mention it. Thanks for pointing that out!

Still I am shooting for quarter size groupings at that distance. I would consider 8 inch groupings to be the outside parameter with 400-600 fps. If you are gong to be a bear might as well be a grizzly ha ha!

Need to use targets now not just the long range visual test of trajectory true-ness.

I'll tell you there is no substitute for engineering. Rethink the problem and push the boundaries. What is needed is new ideas and new designs.

This hop up is a billet chuck of CNC precision machining with complex geometry. It works completely different. It works, but if it is not precise, very precise, very very very precise, I will call it a failure. I want match air rifle 10 bb's through the same hole at 25 feet kind of accuracy. Then I scale back to 50 and 75 feet then 125 then jump right to 300.

Going to be fun, but as you say lots of variables to contend with. Hell we can split an atom and push a sub under water with the energy, we should e able to make a toy accurate ha ha. It is an engineering ball of fun ha ha.

If nothing else I learned a lot and had a bit of fun along the way.

This post has been edited by ebeck: May 18 2010, 11:04 PM

Oh wow, this is a first. What exactly does this new hop up do? Could you try to explain the differences between this hop up and a normal hop up?

I would have 300$ ready to go for quarter sized groupings at 300 feet.
But for members to actually believe you your definatly going to want a video up of this thing shooting, most members will highly doubt.

I hope this modification actually does work out though, how much does it cost for one of these hop ups for you to build?

Hope this works.


(And hey, if I could take one of those off your hands I could maybe go do some testing indoors on camera to see the real noticable difference )
Thanks,
SKR.

This post has been edited by shootkillreload: May 18 2010, 11:12 PM

hmm from the sounds of it me thinks friction hop up system....( there is a set of curves for bb to travel cousing the back spin. IN theory if the path for the bb that causes the spin is longer and more even it would eliminate some of the error in hop up (aka uneven spin), especially if the hop up doesnt flex in any way (thus CNCed I assume) but im just speculating. a rought draft of theory might be great, you don't need to reveal the design in detail (as if its succesfull I feel u should be rewarded ) but to tell the community on what the major difference is between the usual hop up and yours would be great. (a crappy paint picture would be more then great!) Thanks.

soviet911 is close. I tried that originally, but it is actually the opposite of that ha ha. The hop up in no way resembles current hop up though. It also captures energy that is lost in the stock gun and thus velocity should be higher, will need to chronograph it. It is currently tuned for velocity, I played with expansion chambers and tried pressure based hop up too. Velocity won. Bernoulli's theorem ha ha.

Just watching it shoot looking for any deflection or curving I can say it shot like a laser. Need to add scope now and verify it is s precise as it looked.

Down side is it is so precise I wound have to test fire each one and make fine adjustments due to machine tolerances issues. It is build around 2 specific BB's as well.

I will need to test with a bone stock cylinder too, the hope is that it will work with stock set ups and turn it into a scalpel and reduce the need to use pistons and cylinders and triggers and what not. Of course for 300 feet you'd need a bore up I suspect at least. I am testing with that and a modded piston.

I need to get back to a bone stock bun to test.

Trying to figure out how it can be used in other guns as impossible as that sounds. One device many guns ha ha

Sounds all fancy I know but it is very very simple in premise and results will hopefully show this. The implementation is a :censored2: though, chances are I am over optimizing this.

Aluminum spacers? Wouldn't that make things worse? I foresee lots of barrel vibration.
Heck, mine are all washers and rubber grommets covered with duct-tape, and barrel passes the "fishing line" tests.

What brand of ammo are you tuning it for? Would be awsome if the SGM would do that great in this rifle. Either that or the Madbull .40's.

I to would offer to pay for shipping to get one of your hopups and do some testing for you. Already have a maxed out G-spec that does really well at the range and in games.

Can you use standerd VSR barrels? Or does it not matter? If it is friction type system what type of bucking does it use?

Let us know man!!! I want one of these... :D

Nah not at all. I designed them in CAD but never made them yet. I currently use the Laylax ones and drilled them out for my barrel.

Did more prelim testing this morning, nothing structured or scientific. I just went out and shot not even using the scope. Interesting but inconclusive results. I need to settle down and go through it methodically. But I do notice the relationship between spring and hop up is far more pronounced in my design. I need to work out what actually works better and it may actually vary by distance. Also the hop up is very sensitive almost too sensitive. Not sure how I feel about it. I have a 2 stage barrel and I may need to introduce a 2 stage hop up. Luckily for me I already designed a Billet arm in CAD so solve a thing or two. Not sure it works ha ha.

I may have to place a small order then try 2 stage set up and then alter current design to be less finicky.

The BB's are white Biolval .30 and black Golden ball .42. I have 3 boxes of SGM's. Currently they are outside the spec size for this correct configuration. yep, that means models specific for bb size ranges too. Argggg.

It appears that the system prefers heavy with lots of hop up but that has other problems. This is a complicated matrix to be sure.

I will start testing and then report back but at this point I can definitely see that in order to me marketable (as defined by what I would buy) it will need further design revisions. No doubt it will work like it is for some people and some will love it some will hate it.

I need more data and I am sensing some revision. Too finicky is my guess although I shot from standing this morning at 200 feet and I can definitely do 3 foot groupings standing. Maybe it is me but that sucks. Will try porting as well

I'm out for awhile now to test and then swap back to some MX project I am working on.....

This post has been edited by ebeck: May 19 2010, 11:08 AM

Try and get a gun vise. That way you will have no ill effect on the shot ;)

It really does sounds like a sweet system. Can't wait till it gets up and running. I will be sure to get one if they work as well as you say :D

With no formal or scientific testing yest, not even methodical tuning of the system, I was just directionally determining feasibility while free standing, no scope, 175 feet I noticed the following behavior of trajectory within a 3 foot grouping.

For all I know it could be accuracy related which is a nice way of saying I suck at shooting ha ha. At least the trajectory was straight.

There was some elevation variance but I am fairly certian that is due to BB variance and amount of bite the system has which is extremely precise and very aggressive.

I also have a pressure sensitive version I am working on to reduce the BB variance issue. I also have 2 potentially significant machining changes to accomplish to try and correct the behavior shown below if I can not tune it out as it is in it's current second prototype version. I have a long list of thing to go through and by the way the hop up has stages or layers and multiple deployment configurations(although I cannot honestly say when you would use what config yet) but that is yet another whole set of freaking tuning variables. Doh!

Maybe I am over designing ha ha.

We'll see but I need a vise as was correctly stated. Ok I am out for a while now....



This post has been edited by ebeck: May 19 2010, 02:57 PM

Shooting across a road. Not safe. I feel a backyard airsoft lecture in your future (laughs).

So how difficult will it be to install your new widget into a stock VSR/BAR?

ha ha yep I know. Heading to the gun range for testing this weekend. I just HAD to see what happens at more than 75 feet. bad ju ju I know not normally done.

It will need a new barrel but if this pans out this would have a barrel with it. I'll test with stock cylinder and piston as well.

Why do I have a feeling we're being trolled?

a kid shooting across his neighbor hood has a brand new never thought of idea? I doubt it, and after glancing through this thread what are you making spacers? that fit inside the silencer of a g-spec? um nothing new.

This post has been edited by silent_soul: May 19 2010, 03:46 PM

He just said he is making a new hop up system?

Are you doing this with an actual airsoft gun, or an air rifle? I can imagine those kinds of groupings with an air rifle, or a REALLY high FPS airsoft rifle, but not with a regular VSR.

What is your FPS? I recommend you test something around 500 FPS with a .2, as that is the limit for bolt action rifles at most fields.

Also, kind of bucking are you using?

If you can show me a 500 FPS gun shooting 300 ft. accurately and consistently, I'd drop dough on this. But you need to show us with picture and video footage to prove yourself. You'll also need to prove that the hopup and barrel will work with all the other VSR parts out there. Not many people have the money to drop on all new proprietary parts.

He says its a G-spec...

now would it have been that hard for him to just say that instead of being all super hush hush about what he is doing. honestly with all the different hop ups in all the different types of guns I don't think this would be anything special. however the best vibrationless or hop up with least vibrations has to be the tm p90 while not the easiest to dial in and a modification to keep the dial in place would have to be made its probably the best design. and its not noticeably better than any other hop up ive used however I hop he prooves me wont and makes some amazing hop up.

Well it started with an idea and evolved. I did say it was a hop up. Several times actually. Sorry it was not clear. But yeah the entire implementation is new, not a hop as being new, a completely new hop up. That was the new part, the how was new not the what. The what is a hop up.

You also say the following:
"while not the easiest to dial in and a modification to keep the dial in place would have to be made its probably the best design. and its not noticeably better than any other hop up ive used however"

Great observation actually, that is the fear actually, the fear is that this works, and it works better, but..... not well enough to be statistically significant. After all we are still dealing with a spherical ball and a light one at that. Solved one big problem but introduced another, doh!

By the way, thanks for the 500fps and .20 limit info.

Any by kid you mean 42 year old ha ha.

This post has been edited by ebeck: May 19 2010, 06:02 PM

Is there any way we can get some pics? Would make alot of people quiet down atleast.

Or better yet a video of you shooting the rifle with the creation?

woogie_man, I don't think so. Not yet. I am not concerned with people believing or not. I just assume shut my mouth and not post. Just trying to keep enthusiasts in the loop on the R&D. No biggie I can stop. I have no problem posting pics and video when it works like I want.

No.... I'll just shut up and go away if this is going to go bad. No skin off my back. Whatever you guys want man.

Well don't be like that now....... There are alot of people that will say it can't be done and then don't want to do anything about it. But then again alot of people come on here and think they can build something that will change the sport. Only to realize that it takes to much time, money, effort, and know how.

Don't let people discourage you. Though pics are always best :D Keep up the work and I hope it works like you say it does.