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FALCON 6.03 Eight Rifling Precision Inner Barrel


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46 replies to this topic

#1 emobaggage

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:36 AM

Was browsing eHobby today when I stumbled upon this: http://shop.ehobbyas...-aug-509mm.html

Seems like an interesting/easier to obtain version of the TK Twist barrel. Also, since it isn't made for the Japanese market, hopefully it'll perform better with <1J FPS's.
Thoughts?

#2 shlunka

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:01 AM

I'm not really sure if the rifling would even help the bb. Most muzzleloaders don't have rifling for a reason, it doesn't work well with round ammunition. That's the reason they made different ammo to use with rifling during the Civil War, it simply just doesn't help. Now with airsoft, I don't know enough about airsoft bb's reaction to rifling to say that it won't work, I just have my doubts on increasing performance.
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#3 airsoft159

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:38 AM

QUOTE (shlunka @ Apr 7 2011, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not really sure if the rifling would even help the bb. Most muzzleloaders don't have rifling for a reason, it doesn't work well with round ammunition. That's the reason they made different ammo to use with rifling during the Civil War, it simply just doesn't help. Now with airsoft, I don't know enough about airsoft bb's reaction to rifling to say that it won't work, I just have my doubts on increasing performance.

Rifling an airsoft barrel, if done properly, significantly benefits the performance. It does not work the same way as with a real bullet, so being round is not an issue at all.

Rifling an airsoft barrel does not create a spin on the BB- it regulates the air around the BB, so that it is even all the way around, causing the BB to maintain its position in the barrel, providing much better accuracy. (The BB doesn't "bounce" around inside the barrel)

At 1J, the TK twist barrels provided excellent results- not above that, though, because the rifling doesnt cooperate with higher powered setups, and wasn't meant to anyway.

As for the new brand, couldn't tell you. If they do it as well as TK did, and make it optimal for 380-400 FPS setups, if could likely be the new best barrel on the market. If they make one for a high powered sniper rifle, it could give the airsoft sniper role more potential.

Good luck, new brand! a-laugh.gif

EDIT: In a month or so I may try one of these in my SR12....someone else should try it first, haha

Edited by airsoft159, 07 April 2011 - 11:39 AM.


#4 Maekiii

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:51 AM

I would stay far away from those barrels. They are going to be as big flop as the TK twist barrels, you would have to be very lucky to get any improvement over stock barrels. Simply because the hopup makes the BB roll on top of the inner barrel surface, that combined with an uneven (rifled) surface, its not going to work. Just stick with high quality 6,03-6,08 bore barrels, those give the best results. I've gotten amazing results even with polished stock brass acm barrels.

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#5 emobaggage

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 07:34 PM

QUOTE (airsoft159 @ Apr 7 2011, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In a month or so I may try one of these in my SR12....someone else should try it first, haha


My thoughts exactly lol

QUOTE (Maekiii @ Apr 7 2011, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would stay far away from those barrels. They are going to be as big flop as the TK twist barrels, you would have to be very lucky to get any improvement over stock barrels.


I've heard some pretty good things about the TK Twist barrels, I'm confused as to why you think they were a flop

#6 airsoft159

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE (Maekiii @ Apr 7 2011, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would stay far away from those barrels. They are going to be as big flop as the TK twist barrels

They weren't a flop; they were undesirable for people wanting to shoot over 1J. They showed excellent results otherwise, based on several side-by-side comparisons with other barrels. I researched them a while back, but opted for a "normal" barrel for the same reason as most- to shoot more than 1J.

The best data I saw on them was table comparing them with several other brands of barrels and various velocities, with sufficient numbers of trials, other factors consider, etc (it was a GOOD review of the barrel, pretty much everything covered)

If you would buy a stock TM, leave the GB closed, and buy a TK twist barrel, you would have an amazing CQB weapon.

#7 LolDrater

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:10 PM

I'm very interested in that and actually might buy one.

And if you think that the TK barrel was a "flop" then I think you need to read up on it. The barrel wasn't truly ment to be used with much hopup (from my expierence) and it also wasn't ment for high fps set ups. I'm about 98% sure that it was pushed twords the asain sales because of the 1J limits. This barrel made it so anyone shooting 1J or under over there can run a longer shooting gun. As well, I'm sure it didn't catch on in the U.S. and other countries because we don't have a limit of 1J, we have limits of 450-600fps depending on your field and your role.

With all that being said, if they can make quality, or something that's of descent grade what so ever, the barrel will be very nice for those of you who want to test your hopup/barrel mods to the max, or anyone who has a cqb aeg/bolt action that would like more distance from a low fps gun.

Edited by LolDrater, 07 April 2011 - 08:11 PM.


#8 spidedd

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 02:09 PM

Hey just to chime in, I think it is made for over a joule, because they have a barrel specifically for the we m14, which shoots at times well over 400 fps. I don't think that gun actually even thinks of what it's like to be around a joule.ha. I might pick one up and try it on my g&g m14
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#9 0siris

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 07:06 PM

If theirs any correlation, I bought one of their hop up buckings, the 70 degree one, and It was fantastic imo, I have nothing to back it up but just from my experience it was an excellent hop up bucking. I'm really interested to see how their barrels are as well.
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#10 EDI 1st

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 01:49 AM

Ok....apparently after viewing the posts above.....I feel like I'm an expert.....idk why....don't flame me....
And Falcon is not really a new company, they just haven't really started their oversea campaign till recently.

Short explanation and you probably know this too.
6.01 has tight air seal which gives you higher FPS.
6.03 gives room for air cushions to form around the BBs which increases the accuracy.
^Pretty simple right?^
That's why many choose Prommy 6.03 over PDI 6.01 even if they have the money especially for DMRs.

Now to the grooving part....
Tanio Koba Twist Barrel combined 6.03 with twisted grooving to give that superb accuracy.
But the TK Twist Barrel only works under 350fps due to the angular change of the grooving.
Like....when you are driving....if you try to make a sharp turn at 150mph....it's not going to work...

So Falcon started to make 6.03 with 8 lines of "STRAIGHT" grooving near the end of barrel for 5cm.
So IT DOESN'T ROTATE THE BBs.

What does the straight grooving do exactly?
It simply align the air flows to give that extra accuracy.
(If you know physics....then you should know this.....just like magnetic force)

Is it better?
Well, I've seen people installed the Falcon Grooving barrels in TM VSR-10 and had really impressive results.

And for the price.....it's definitely worth every penny....
It's like cars you know...PDI and Prommy are more and less selling the name, like Ferrari and Lambo.
(Not saying they are bad, just saying they are more or less over priced)
Prommy 590mm 6.03 = $80
PDI 595mm 6.01 = $230
Falcon 650mm is only $50+Shipping from HK.....

What's even better?
I'm ordering one straight from the manufacture, custom built for DSR-1 this month.
Friends are jumping in to save some shipping with me lol


But be aware that these barrel are built for precision.
Which means that it needs higher FPS for the maximum result.
(You know, more pressure = better cushion)
If you are shooting around 330fps, get the TK Twist barrel.
Above that, Falcon Grooving barrels is the option.

Gas Powered weapons?
Definitely go for the Falcon Grooving barrels.
Unlike air, gas expands. (I know this doesn't really make any sense if you put air = gas, but just go with it lol)

Edited by EDI 1st, 25 April 2011 - 01:52 AM.

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#11 emobaggage

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 02:22 AM

Hm.

The grooves are straight though? Isn't the definition of "rifling" curved grooves?

#12 EDI 1st

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 02:25 AM

QUOTE (emobaggage @ Apr 25 2011, 12:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hm.

The grooves are straight though? Isn't the definition of "rifling" curved grooves?

Yes, but the actual product name = grooving barrel not rifling.
It's just one of those "translation problems"
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#13 emobaggage

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 03:04 AM

Ah, that makes sense.

I'd buy it if it were called the "groovy barrel" or something a-laugh.gif

#14 woogie_man

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 07:13 PM

Rifling doesn't have to be a spiral style ;)

If a barrel has groves inside of it.... then it is a rifled barrel.


The reason why we see more of the spiral rifling, is do to the fact that a latteraly spinning conical object will fly extremely stable. Think of throwing a football ;) But yes straigt rifling does exist and I have read about some early rifles being made just like that.

#15 b240000

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 08:01 PM

EDI, tell is how it works for you. I'm interested in one if these if it really does make an improvement in AEGs above 1j.
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#16 EDI 1st

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:07 PM

QUOTE (b240000 @ Apr 25 2011, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
EDI, tell is how it works for you. I'm interested in one if these if it really does make an improvement in AEGs above 1j.


I won't really be able to do that since I'm getting it for DSR-1 lol
But a couple of my friends might get some for their AEGs.
I'll try to get them write a review or something.
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#17 EDI 1st

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 12:47 AM

A bit of update......
So right now....on the list....for the very first shipment straight from Taiwan to US....
We have the followings:

Rifling barrels
425mm x 2
363mm x 4
393mm x 1
425mm x 1
247mm x 2
285mm x 1
550mm x 1

Precision barrel
SCWI no hop-up TBB

Misc Parts
No. F75
No. F60
No. F59s
No. F51
No. F45
No. F44
No. F36
No. F13


Most of the people will write reviews on the barrels/parts in the near future.

Edited by EDI 1st, 27 April 2011 - 12:48 AM.

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#18 airsoft159

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 10:24 AM

I can't wait ^^

#19 Aerdowaith

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (EDI 1st @ Apr 25 2011, 09:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I won't really be able to do that since I'm getting it for DSR-1 lol
But a couple of my friends might get some for their AEGs.
I'll try to get them write a review or something.


That would be amazing if you could get a review form your friends! I am also looking at these barrels and more info would be great! So you get one, even if for a different gun, it would be awesome to hear how well it worked for you. Thanks!

#20 Jerichow

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:00 PM

I'll probably be purchasing one for my M16 build here in the next 2 weeks when I do another Ehobby order. If I do I'll test it and see how it stacks against a Matrix 6.035mm 510mm barrel.
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#21 EDI 1st

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:49 AM

QUOTE (Jerichow @ May 3 2011, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll probably be purchasing one for my M16 build here in the next 2 weeks when I do another Ehobby order. If I do I'll test it and see how it stacks against a Matrix 6.035mm 510mm barrel.


Make sure you have platforms to hold the gun so it'll be just the accuracy of the gun/barrel not the shooter :)
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#22 soccer77

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 01:07 AM

I wonder, would getting a longer barrel with this type of barrel be useful more so than grabbing your standard 650mm barrel?

Seeing as it would be kept centered better? I am curious for my SR25 setup, I may actually grab a 650mm barrel and put in the bore up kit though....I believe the only 650mm they have is for the FSG-1 and it is not AEG cut?

I say this because most people agree that a barrel longer than 509mm will not see much of a return, but in this case for THIS type of barrel, it should see a pretty good return, am I right?

-----
Editing:

Wait....its only the last 50mm. Which may not really help if you have a barrel of 650mm seeing as the bb will be doing its usual thing for approx 600mm of its run through the barrel....I am not sure if it would be much better than say a 509mm that is of this type....any thoughts?

Edited by soccer77, 04 May 2011 - 01:53 AM.


#23 sniperelite7

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:27 AM

650mm is stupidly excessive. There's as school of thought that the sweet spot for barrel length is some where around 400-509mm. Due to the BB using the top of the barrel to stabilize itself.

Edited by sniperelite7, 04 May 2011 - 09:28 AM.


#24 Aerdowaith

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:02 AM

QUOTE (Jerichow @ May 3 2011, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll probably be purchasing one for my M16 build here in the next 2 weeks when I do another Ehobby order. If I do I'll test it and see how it stacks against a Matrix 6.035mm 510mm barrel.


That would be great! I would love to see those results. Maybe you could just take pictures of your targets once you are done then, you wouldn't have to do the accuracy calculations. We could just draw our own conclusions. Then you wouldn't have to do so much work.

#25 soccer77

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:07 AM

QUOTE (sniperelite7 @ May 4 2011, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
650mm is stupidly excessive. There's as school of thought that the sweet spot for barrel length is some where around 400-509mm. Due to the BB using the top of the barrel to stabilize itself.


I know, and understand that which is why my KWA Sr10 and SR25 both have barrels at 509mm or under, I was thinking for the purposes of this type of barrel though it doesn't matter since only 50mm is rifled. If the whole barrel was rifled or something to that extent I would disagree with you.

I answered my own question in this post.

455mm is the "school of thought's" barrel length where accuracy peaks.

I am not trying to be rude with this post either, just was clarifying my moment of confusion on a late night :)

Edited by soccer77, 04 May 2011 - 10:21 AM.


#26 sniperelite7

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:29 AM

No harm done. :P

Though, imagine a 650mm barrel in a gas gun. The velocity would be amazing.

I might pick up the eight rifling inner barrel, assuming it blows everything else out of the water.

#27 Jerichow

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE (soccer77 @ May 4 2011, 01:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wait....its only the last 50mm. Which may not really help if you have a barrel of 650mm seeing as the bb will be doing its usual thing for approx 600mm of its run through the barrel....I am not sure if it would be much better than say a 509mm that is of this type....any thoughts?


Is this the case for all of them? That'd kind of defeat the purpose of the 'rifling' effect if it's only 50mm wouldn't it?
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#28 buppus

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 03:45 PM

The Falcon barrels are not really rifled at all. The air channels are straight and do not run all the way from front to back, they only go a few CM in from the crowning.

I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I don't buy into the whole concept of the TK Twist barrels from the start, and I've seen zero evidence that they operate as claimed, I.e. that performance degrades past 1J. In fact I know several people who use TK Twist barrels at well above 400 fps, and they still work fine.

Furthermore, the theory behind the TK barrels has contributed to a vast misunderstanding of the physics at play with barrels in general (the whole exit vector being reduced by airflow spiraling around the BB thing). As far as I can tell from the experimental data currently available, that's not at all what is physically happening. One experiment using transparent barrels and BB's coated in dididium blue showed that the BB's skid and spin across the top of the barrel after stabilizing, which means that the whole theory behind tightbore barrels reducing the angle of exit vectors is bunk, and that if the TK barrels do anything, it's not what they claim to do.

The air channel "rifling" in these Falcon barrels probably has minimal, if any, effect on the BB's passing through, but if there is something to this new trend, it definitely doesn't work as is typically thought. The net effect of adding such a feature is akin to just widening the bore of the barrel, as more air is able to blow by the BB, producing a stabilizing effect. The only difference is that the possible points of contact with the barrel are reduced to a few, set points in an octagonal array. Whether that helps accuracy remains to be seen. So if anything, this is further evidence that wider bore produces better accuracy.

Edited by buppus, 04 May 2011 - 03:48 PM.

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#29 TyGuy94920

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 04:35 PM


If what EDI says is true, I want 4 of them, and I want them NAO

I'll reserve judgment until I see some test results




#30 EDI 1st

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 06:31 PM

QUOTE (soccer77 @ May 3 2011, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wonder, would getting a longer barrel with this type of barrel be useful more so than grabbing your standard 650mm barrel?

Seeing as it would be kept centered better? I am curious for my SR25 setup, I may actually grab a 650mm barrel and put in the bore up kit though....I believe the only 650mm they have is for the FSG-1 and it is not AEG cut?

I say this because most people agree that a barrel longer than 509mm will not see much of a return, but in this case for THIS type of barrel, it should see a pretty good return, am I right?


Well, the amount of air that's stored in the piston or size of the piston is the actual element that determines the length of barrel that you can have. Many people don't know this.
If the barrel is too long, there might even be a vortex that pulls on the BBs.

Falcon actually custom make different lengths of barrels with different cuts, so getting one long enough with AEG is not a problem.
Someone actually asked for a 800+mm for a M82 few years back but the machine was down. I don't know what happened next, but just saying that they have the ability to make long barrels.



QUOTE (soccer77 @ May 3 2011, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Editing:

Wait....its only the last 50mm. Which may not really help if you have a barrel of 650mm seeing as the bb will be doing its usual thing for approx 600mm of its run through the barrel....I am not sure if it would be much better than say a 509mm that is of this type....any thoughts?


It still does help, you just need to make sure that you have enough pressure in the end to guide the air cushion.
It's the same situation as just the different lengths of barrels.

What you want to get is the perfect length of barrel for the set up that you have, not as long as possible.




<AT>buppus
Rifling doesn't have to be spiral, according to woogie.
And, how do you explain that people do get better results with the TK Twist then a regular 6.03?

And BTW, ever think of Hop-up might be the reason why the BB is stick to the top of the barrel?
And for true accuracy shooting, you don't need hop-up at all.
Hop-up is solely designed to make the BB fly further.

Edited by EDI 1st, 04 May 2011 - 06:39 PM.

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#31 soccer77

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE (EDI 1st @ May 4 2011, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It still does help, you just need to make sure that you have enough pressure in the end to guide the air cushion.
It's the same situation as just the different lengths of barrels.

What you want to get is the perfect length of barrel for the set up that you have, not as long as possible.


Right and I corrected myself earlier I know the whole deal about barrels, my mind train was a bit off at that point.

The SR25 I have utilizes an elongated gearbox thus allowing a greater volume of air but still, the supposed sweet spot for accuacy is 455mm. Anything beyond that they say doesn't do much. Which means I will have a lot more volume of air in a regular 509mm barrel than most players. I am not entirely sure what that means besides a more consistent air flow; definitely need to use a heavier bb though so the greater air volume can be utilized.

I don't think me getting a 650mm barrel benefits it whether or not its the Falcon barrel or not(bore up or not). So I would just buy a regular M16 length rifling barrel.

Edited by soccer77, 04 May 2011 - 08:01 PM.


#32 buppus

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (EDI 1st @ May 4 2011, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<AT>buppus
And, how do you explain that people do get better results with the TK Twist then a regular 6.03?

And BTW, ever think of Hop-up might be the reason why the BB is stick to the top of the barrel?
And for true accuracy shooting, you don't need hop-up at all.
Hop-up is solely designed to make the BB fly further.


People get better results with high quality aftermarket barrels, whether TK Twist, Prommy, Mad Bull, etc... There's nothing special about the TK Twist, and like I said, performance doesn't diminish after 1J because that rifling doesn't actually do anything.

Of course the hopup is the reason - the question is, how does that fact bear upon accuracy such that barrel design can take advantage of it?

What's the point of no-hop "accuracy shooting" if those shots are not at range?
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#33 Skyi///

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 11:22 PM

The performance of my 303mm TK barrel in my GSPEC severely degrades when I put my 450-470 fps spring in my setup to a point I can't consistently hit A4 paper at 50ft.

At 300-330fps, I can hit Dollar Coins consistently 9/10.



My PDI 303mm 6.01 has similar results at 300-330fps, while slightly looser groupings and obviously longer max range with the 450-470 fps spring.

Edited by Skyi///, 06 May 2011 - 11:23 PM.

http://www.airsoftfo...-B-t147334.html
Tanio Koba Twist barrel info

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#34 krap101

krap101
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rockford, IL

Posted 06 May 2011 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE (EDI 1st @ May 4 2011, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And for true accuracy shooting, you don't need hop-up at all.
Hop-up is solely designed to make the BB fly further.


Hopup makes the bb flight path more linear, so it is easier to aim. Unless you are shooting only at one range, hopup is necessary to reliably do height adjustments. It's basically the difference (in real guns) between something like a 200 yard shot versus a 2 mile shot. During those 200 yards, the bullet drop is very small, but at 2 miles, you have to compensate (vertically) by quite a bit, and unless you can do ballistics in your head, even considering that bb's are a ton less consistent than bullets, you'd want hop for any distance (cqb might be the exception)

#35 EDI 1st

EDI 1st
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  • Location:Fountain Valley, CA 92708
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Posted 06 May 2011 - 11:59 PM

QUOTE (krap101 @ May 6 2011, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hopup makes the bb flight path more linear, so it is easier to aim. Unless you are shooting only at one range, hopup is necessary to reliably do height adjustments. It's basically the difference (in real guns) between something like a 200 yard shot versus a 2 mile shot. During those 200 yards, the bullet drop is very small, but at 2 miles, you have to compensate (vertically) by quite a bit, and unless you can do ballistics in your head, even considering that bb's are a ton less consistent than bullets, you'd want hop for any distance (cqb might be the exception)


Accuracy = Range
Please be cleared about accuracy and range....
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#36 krap101

krap101
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rockford, IL

Posted 07 May 2011 - 02:38 AM

QUOTE (EDI 1st @ May 6 2011, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Accuracy = Range
Please be cleared about accuracy and range....


It you want to nitpick, please be cleared about range and effective range. If your bb doesn't fly straight, you'll rarely hit what you want to hit. Unless this is a target gun (always the same distance away), range (parabolic vs flat) has a role in accuracy.

#37 soccer77

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 06:05 PM

From what I can tell, these barrels will do the same thing as a ported barrel.

It seems the straight octagonal lines are for displacing the air properly before and after exiting.

http://shop.ehobbyas...85/image/84526/

So if you already match your cylinder volume to your barrel length (via measuring and porting) this barrel will not really help you.

Now if you were running an elongated gearbox, this would help bleed off some excess air. Whether or not porting works though is one of those things like barrel length and bore size that isn't 100% clear in the airsoft community and thus into the murky water we go :P

But let's not start a theory debate

-------

I am interested in this mainly for the fact that I have an elongated gearbox.(which is the point of this slight side track)

A standard size bore up cylinder (v2) has enough air volume to use a 590mm barrel and a standard cylinder non bore up can run a 540mm barrel. Is what I have recently learned. This was done by measuring and testing.

Elongated V2 without a bore up kit is around 25-30% more volume....so assuming 25% more that is 675mm and with a bore up kit it could handle a 737mm barrel.

Not going to get a debate on whether barrel length is worth it due to the murkiness of the subject, I am simply trying to refer to point that the amount of air in the elongated gearbox is quite excessive. I will be taking exact measurements soon..of the cylinder heads in place, accounting for the position of the piston head. As well as figuring on some extra air being necessary, because the best systems leak some.

#38 buppus

buppus
  • Location:Buffalo, NY

Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:17 PM

Any updates here?
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QUOTE (Zemanova @ Nov 10 2011, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if you can fart, you can solder

#39 Exarach

Exarach
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tucson, Az
  • Interests:Airsoft!

Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (buppus @ May 26 2011, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Any updates here?


Buying one for my CA SVD, review coming soon.
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#40 DarK-ForcE

DarK-ForcE

Posted 14 June 2011 - 08:34 PM

Any updates to this?




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