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Solenoid Operated TAR


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34 replies to this topic

#1 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 21 February 2012 - 03:44 PM

First, a few teaser pictures:





This is going to be a build thread for my solenoid operated TAR.

Base gun: ARES Tar-21
Internals: Custom solenoid operated gearbox
Barrel: Prometheus w/ M4 hop up chamber

Figured I will post this here and see what people on this board think of it. Not too many build threads either so its nice to mix it up a little.

This isn't Polarstar gearbox, this is a custom made solenoid gearbox. Why make my own? The main reason is adaptability. I am going to be converting all sorts of different guns, and will eventually be attempting to design a solenoid operated recoil engine.

This build will actually be done relatively soon, and I will update this thread as I go along.

#2 GamingNow

GamingNow
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Costa Mesa, CA
  • Interests:Like to surf, body board, and body surf. Love the ocean in general. Also enjoy art and of course, airsofting!
  • SOA Name: None

Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:36 PM

Very good idea, looking forward to the build!
Rare Escort MP5 External GBBR "Uses AEG Mags!"


My Favorite Guns I Have Owned

CYMA G18 - Sumiko
CA AUG A1 - Helga
KWA M4 - Maggie
TM PSG1 - Kasumi
JAC UZI DX - Champ
TM Desert Eagle (Chrome) - Bill
WE Magpul M4 - Dragon

#3 ServedConsistently

ServedConsistently
  • Location:MN

Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:14 PM

What kind of system are you using to control the solenoid?
Anything that doesn't kill me...Has made a grave tactical error.

#4 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 05 March 2012 - 08:33 PM

Using an NE555 timer. This may be known as the Kuba mod to some, I wanted something to work off for my first project. I will be making major changes after this build is done.



#5 ServedConsistently

ServedConsistently
  • Location:MN

Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:03 AM

QUOTE (NinjaTurtle @ Mar 5 2012, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Using an NE555 timer. This may be known as the Kuba mod to some, I wanted something to work off for my first project. I will be making major changes after this build is done.


Do you plan on using the kuba style dump valve?
Anything that doesn't kill me...Has made a grave tactical error.

#6 woogie_man

woogie_man
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo, ND

Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

Nice man....

May I ask what valving you are planing on using?

http://www.pneumadyn...-1219-l-en.html

Here is the site that I am getting my valves from... not to bad of a price when you consider the price of them. And they are cheap enough to play around with, so if you fry one you are not out a ton of money.

#7 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:02 PM

Hey woogie, those look great and small. I have an STC valve, and although it is small, they way it is shaped makes it impossible to fit inside a V2 gearbox.

And yes, this is the same as the Kuba mod.

#8 woogie_man

woogie_man
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo, ND

Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:22 PM

It is a fun build to be honest..... And his design does leave some room to improve upon. I have gone through a few different piston designs and what not.... and through it all it has been a ton of fun.


I think that it is just about more fun to build the parts, rather than go out and actually use them :P

#9 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:31 PM

Agreed, building guns can be more fun than using them. I have some ideas for the next design I will try, I want to customize the whole system. I am going to try to integrate the inner barrel with the system itself, and make the entire thing air-tight.

Do you machine your parts yourself? If so, can you recommend a lathe to use? I was thinking of just getting the mini lathe from harbor freight, not really too sure though.

#10 woogie_man

woogie_man
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo, ND

Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:24 PM

I do make my own parts...


I have the 7x10 lathe from harbor freight. Though for some of my builds I am really missing my JET 9x20 lathe that I had last summer..... Not to bad of a buy, though you are going to be killed by the tooling and everything else that goes with it ;)
http://littlemachineshop.com/

Great site for all the tools and "goodies" you may need.

I like the concept of the hop up as part of the box itself. Could always make them separate, for easier changing of the barrel and bucking, and just have 4 allen bolts holding it against the gearbox and an o-ring to make a nice seal ;) Would me much easier to machine as well.

As far as material I get mine locally from Fastenal or online from http://www.onlinemetals.com/

Edited by woogie_man, 10 March 2012 - 10:25 PM.


#11 GamingNow

GamingNow
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Costa Mesa, CA
  • Interests:Like to surf, body board, and body surf. Love the ocean in general. Also enjoy art and of course, airsofting!
  • SOA Name: None

Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:34 PM

Could you explain how these engines work? Average cost to build one?
Rare Escort MP5 External GBBR "Uses AEG Mags!"


My Favorite Guns I Have Owned

CYMA G18 - Sumiko
CA AUG A1 - Helga
KWA M4 - Maggie
TM PSG1 - Kasumi
JAC UZI DX - Champ
TM Desert Eagle (Chrome) - Bill
WE Magpul M4 - Dragon

#12 woogie_man

woogie_man
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo, ND

Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:59 AM

They work on a very basic principle. The air will push the piston forward, wich will push the bb into the bucking, and then out the barrel.

The cost of them really depends on the material and the valve you use.

My valve $20
Electronics $15
Material $20

So with just those at about $55.... and that doesn't include time or energy spent making the parts and tweaking them either.

#13 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

Note that above prices are if you have a lathe (which aren't cheap- the smallest one available is $500 new), if not you have to pay for machining work. Also my valve was $40. And these prices don't include the body you use, hop, etc.

Thanks for the info woogie. I have some pretty neat ideas I have been wanting to try out. Ever since I got into classics a few years ago I have seen the potential of airsoft guns and how modern airsoft wastes all of that potential. Maybe I'll send you a PM about my ideas and see what you think.

Quick question- is that 7x10 lathe too small to bore out an outer barrel of an AEG? I'm pretty sure it is, seeing as its so small, but a lot of what I need done requires a larger inner bore diameter of the outer barrel.

Unfortunately since I am a full time college student all lathe work can't be done unless I am home or have someone do it and send it to me so some parts of my projects take longer than others.

#14 GamingNow

GamingNow
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Costa Mesa, CA
  • Interests:Like to surf, body board, and body surf. Love the ocean in general. Also enjoy art and of course, airsofting!
  • SOA Name: None

Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:41 PM

How is the reliability, range, accuracy, and consistency compared to AEG's? Would about compared to a SP M4 or Asahi Bushmaster?
Rare Escort MP5 External GBBR "Uses AEG Mags!"


My Favorite Guns I Have Owned

CYMA G18 - Sumiko
CA AUG A1 - Helga
KWA M4 - Maggie
TM PSG1 - Kasumi
JAC UZI DX - Champ
TM Desert Eagle (Chrome) - Bill
WE Magpul M4 - Dragon

#15 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:54 PM

Why compare anything to an SP/GBB? Those have AEG range at best. IMO you can't compare "systems" to each other, only specific guns.

Asahi based anything have utmost reliability and when tuned with an LRB have range that AEGs can never match. But at their maximum range they are only so accurate. That being said, they are also only fully automatic so its unnecessary to have the accuracy at 100yds, with a burst you can hit man sized target at that range. Not to say LRBs aren't accurate (which many will claim without proper knowledge on the subject). LRB tuned Crimebusters are incredibly accurate at extreme ranges.

AEGs are so limited in reliability and consistency it is not helpful to compare to them. The point of this specific system is to make it yourself and to have a consistent, reliable system- so reliable that there isn't anything to break or wear down. Range is dependent on the hop system, not the engine itself. Once I have this system down, I am going to try and build another solenoid system around an LRB.

#16 woogie_man

woogie_man
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo, ND

Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:57 PM

I just got my valve in today!!! WOOT WOOT..... took 5 weeks to have it built, but it should be able to stand up to 180 psi and be able to run off of a 9v battery ;) And after all that waiting I forgot to order my manifold and connectors.... so now back to ordering and waiting :(



The 7x10 does have a through hole in the head stock... so you are able to extend the part through the chuck.... as long as it fits in the hole ( I believe it is about 15/16" total )


I have kind of jerry rigged a few parts to hold parts steady as I work on the other end. It is possible, with a little bit of creativity.

The lathe was $300
Cutting tools $150
Steady rest $80
Boaring bars $150
Measuring tools and what nots Appx $100

So getting all the stuff really isn't cheap, but if you are going to use it then you are good to go. It really is fun to do and a great way to empty your bank account, kind of like airsoft ;)


I am going for a high pressure set up, going to try and push 150 psi with the build, just to see what I can't get the FPS up to. I am using aluminum for the parts, and then Stainless as well. Was planning on getting some Delrin as well to give that a try, as it would work great with the movement in the gearbox itself.

http://kuba-t1000.co..._conversion_mod

Here is the web site that we are getting the "basic" plans off of. They really leave room in the plans to tweak it yourself and really make it your own.

Edited by woogie_man, 13 March 2012 - 07:09 PM.


#17 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:53 AM

Sounds awesome woogie. Are you using an NE555 timer as well to control the valve?

#18 woogie_man

woogie_man
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo, ND

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

Yup.

I just have to find the box with all of my electronics in it now.......:P

#19 shlunka

shlunka
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia
  • Interests:Philosophy, airsoft, anything mechanical, complicated things, guitar.

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:20 PM

Is that what I think it is :D That gun is beautiful btw, looking forward to it running. I've actually tried to bore a barrel out of stainless on a lathe, I believe the lathe is 17"X60, but honestly I'm not sure, but even on that size, the barrel was inconsistent on a gas gun, however with practice it could be possible.
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#20 NinjaTurtle

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  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:03 PM

Actually I meant an outer barrel. I want there to be a decent sized gap between the AEG barrel and the walls of the outer barrel.

#21 shlunka

shlunka
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:28 PM

Oh the outer barrel, kinda like this?Attached File  DSCF2595.JPG   52.42KB   37 downloads

Pic of it on an AR, ignore the ugly gun......Attached File  DSCF2578.JPG   100.9KB   42 downloads

I know it's kinda sloppy on the inside, but it gets the job done, and I didn't take the pics with the end cap on. It's about 1" diameter, providing plenty of space for stuff, in this guns case, foam.
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#22 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:09 AM

I may have you bore out an AEG outer barrel if you're up to it! In a while, after I finish this first gun. Think its possible to bore an AEG outer barrel to around 12mm ID?

Edited by NinjaTurtle, 20 March 2012 - 01:10 AM.


#23 shlunka

shlunka
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia
  • Interests:Philosophy, airsoft, anything mechanical, complicated things, guitar.

Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:57 AM

QUOTE (NinjaTurtle @ Mar 20 2012, 02:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I may have you bore out an AEG outer barrel if you're up to it! In a while, after I finish this first gun. Think its possible to bore an AEG outer barrel to around 12mm ID?

Yeah most likely, but it couldn't be some massive 500mm outer barrel. It would actually be easier to modify a piece of either stainless or aluminum tube.
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#24 Vegas

Vegas
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine

Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:21 AM

SPs don't have good range? I beg to differ good sir :P

Edited by Vegas, 20 March 2012 - 06:21 AM.


#25 GamingNow

GamingNow
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Costa Mesa, CA
  • Interests:Like to surf, body board, and body surf. Love the ocean in general. Also enjoy art and of course, airsofting!
  • SOA Name: None

Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:15 PM

QUOTE (Vegas @ Mar 20 2012, 04:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SPs don't have good range? I beg to differ good sir :P


Actually SP's don't have good range. Nothing comparable to modern day AEG's or an Asahi Bushmaster w/ LRB for that matter. They really are just a flashy system; loud, lots of recoil, fun to shoot, but no real performance.

Rare Escort MP5 External GBBR "Uses AEG Mags!"


My Favorite Guns I Have Owned

CYMA G18 - Sumiko
CA AUG A1 - Helga
KWA M4 - Maggie
TM PSG1 - Kasumi
JAC UZI DX - Champ
TM Desert Eagle (Chrome) - Bill
WE Magpul M4 - Dragon

#26 ServedConsistently

ServedConsistently
  • Location:MN

Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:20 PM

Does anybody know the draw of a noid needed to run one of these? I just found this and I was thinking it might be an easy way to fire the noid. I wonder if this thing can set a high enough dwell to fully cycle a valve like this.
Anything that doesn't kill me...Has made a grave tactical error.

#27 jIMMY37

jIMMY37
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fort Smith, Arkansas
  • Interests:RC. PC's. Older guns. Tinkering. Making things work. Infinite Bass custom subwoofer boxes.

Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:30 AM

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand all of this but I have a grasp on the principle. Wouldnt that board trigger a solenoid on the paintball gun? Can we find the voltage output of the board? In theory, if it didnt output enough to.power a solenoid alone, couldn't you wire in a basic mosfet or relay? I'm willing to test the board for 13$ on the solenoid valve I have. If it works, or is easy to get working with a solenoid valve, that would be a really handy thing to have.

Alright, just bought it. We will see what happens.

Edited by jIMMY37, 30 March 2012 - 09:27 AM.


I don't vent, I'm violently honest.

QUOTE (Zemanova @ Nov 7 2011, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
don't get this one. itll go in and get lost
http://www.khmountai...rsoft/HP006.jpg
trust me, im a gynecologist

#28 jIMMY37

jIMMY37
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fort Smith, Arkansas
  • Interests:RC. PC's. Older guns. Tinkering. Making things work. Infinite Bass custom subwoofer boxes.

Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:47 PM

It seems as though the manual for that board is long gone. Here is a manual for the upgrade chip that includes programming instructions and basic information. Too bad this seems to be old tech or else we could easily find someone to give us a basic rundown on what each part is.

http://www.tadaotech...s_10_manual.pdf

Edited by jIMMY37, 30 March 2012 - 11:03 PM.


I don't vent, I'm violently honest.

QUOTE (Zemanova @ Nov 7 2011, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
don't get this one. itll go in and get lost
http://www.khmountai...rsoft/HP006.jpg
trust me, im a gynecologist

#29 jIMMY37

jIMMY37
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fort Smith, Arkansas
  • Interests:RC. PC's. Older guns. Tinkering. Making things work. Infinite Bass custom subwoofer boxes.

Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:45 AM

I got with a paintballer and asked if he could explain what each port was. He did me one better and got me the actual manual for this thing. Sadly, though, he doubts itll lutput enough power for one of our solenoids. I'll find that out once it gets here. At the very least, I can still try out my mosfet/relay idea.

http://www.tadaotech..._SLG_Manual.pdf

I don't vent, I'm violently honest.

QUOTE (Zemanova @ Nov 7 2011, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
don't get this one. itll go in and get lost
http://www.khmountai...rsoft/HP006.jpg
trust me, im a gynecologist

#30 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:07 PM

Interesting, had any luck?

#31 AKAKman

AKAKman
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  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:RC Planes, some airsoft replicas....anything with an engine on it....

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:21 PM

Ohh....I miss my old TAR. Pretty neat build, hope it goes well....that TAR was a PAIN for me to work on in its AEG state.....lol

#32 Vegas

Vegas
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine

Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:34 PM

QUOTE (GamingNow @ Mar 23 2012, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually SP's don't have good range. Nothing comparable to modern day AEG's or an Asahi Bushmaster w/ LRB for that matter. They really are just a flashy system; loud, lots of recoil, fun to shoot, but no real performance.


Lolkay, my SP hits out to 250, which I'd say is pretty darn decent. It's all how you invest in it.

#33 jIMMY37

jIMMY37
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fort Smith, Arkansas
  • Interests:RC. PC's. Older guns. Tinkering. Making things work. Infinite Bass custom subwoofer boxes.

Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

Lucky enough to figure out power polarity without destroying anything. God I love having a basic knowledge of electricity and electronics. Anyway, I got polarity and which two pins trigger the solenoid. 1 is the positive side(even though it's black) and 2 marks the "bottom" two pins for the trigger switch. Another lucky break was that certain cordless phone batteries have a plug that fits these ports with very little modification. Thankfully we have a battery recycle box at work so I procured some plugs.



Tomorrow I will work more with it. If I can, I'll dig out my oscilloscope and see if I can measure the voltage output on the solenoid port. It cycles too fast for my.multimeter to.read it properly.

I don't vent, I'm violently honest.

QUOTE (Zemanova @ Nov 7 2011, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
don't get this one. itll go in and get lost
http://www.khmountai...rsoft/HP006.jpg
trust me, im a gynecologist

#34 NinjaTurtle

NinjaTurtle
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OC, Cali

Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:08 AM

Looks awesome. Would take some work out of making all the electrical parts, plus has some sweet features. Have you tried hooking it up to your solenoid yet?

#35 jIMMY37

jIMMY37
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fort Smith, Arkansas
  • Interests:RC. PC's. Older guns. Tinkering. Making things work. Infinite Bass custom subwoofer boxes.

Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:31 PM

Hooked it up to my solenoid and it wouldn't fire it. I will admit my solenoid is a bigger unit with 1/2 inch in/outputs. It did work with and trigger a reed relay, radioshack number 275-0233, which allowed me to kick the solenoid with a 12 volt battery. Sadly, I have no idea what happened to.my oscilloscope, so I can't measure the voltage output. I do know the other relay I tested it witg didn't work. It was radioshack number 275-0248, which is rated at 30 milliamps.

Any questions, guys?

EDIT: And now a pointless video!



Doesn't show much, but I guess it can help with the visualization of everything.

EDIT2: Made a simple wiring diagram.


Edited by jIMMY37, 04 April 2012 - 11:33 PM.


I don't vent, I'm violently honest.

QUOTE (Zemanova @ Nov 7 2011, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
don't get this one. itll go in and get lost
http://www.khmountai...rsoft/HP006.jpg
trust me, im a gynecologist




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