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Firepower Is Nothing


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128 replies to this topic

#1 ardrummer292

ardrummer292
  • Gender:Male
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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:38 AM

Firepower is Nothing:
By Ardrummer292

My philosophy on fullauto, hicaps, and the combat psyche

SITREP - OP: Thunder II, 08/29/2005 13:25 Bravo squad
All you can hear is the whining sound of automatic gunfire around you. You see little blurs of white and hear the “swish” of bbs whizzing past you at 400 fps. You can hear bbs pinging off of your impossibly small piece of cover, a tree no more than a foot in diameter. You see your friends just across the path being pinned down behind stumps, some getting blasted in the face with a well-placed group of bbs. You yell over to them, “Cover me!” Unfortunately, there are only two members of your squad left: one has a GBB and a medic kit, while the other has an empty M4. You have no smoke grenades, and you only have one standard mag left. You MUST rejoin the remainder of your team to reach the objective. What to do...

Most airsofters would slap that last mag in, flip their selector switch to full auto, and blindly blaze their way across the trail, hoping for the best. Isn’t it true? How else would you make it to the objective and complete the mission? Although some may deny such tactical decisions out of action, combat makes one forget all aspects of proper weapon handling technique (ESPECIALLY trigger discipline). Perhaps an analysis of common airsoft combat techniques should be noted to see how this situation could be rectified, or avoided altogether.

I’d say that 95% of airsofters who have the capability to use fullauto in their guns use fullauto exclusively. Of the airsofters that have fullauto capability, I’d say that a solid 75% do NOT use short (3-5 round) bursts. Instead, they spray fullauto fire until they are content that their target has been thoroughly saturated.
This is a problem. Although airsoft guns can carry FAR more ammunition than their realsteel counterparts, that doesn’t mean that their ammo supply is infinite. It may seem that way with weapons outfitted with a box or drum mag, but all magazines have their limits. Besides, the more confident a person is in the “infinite” nature of their gun’s ammo supply, the more likely they are to shoot at things that they otherwise wouldn’t waste ammo on.

This explains the trend for milsim teams requiring realcap magazines. If people conserved ammo with box mags like they do with 30rd realcaps, there would be little, if any, problem with box mags on milsim teams. The more stress that is put on magazine capacity, the better one’s technique becomes.

I’ve always considered airsoft a more intelligent and realistic alternative to paintball. That’s one of the main reasons that I started playing airsoft, actually. The paintball scene was turning into a spray-and-pray circus, complete with neon clothing and inflatable obstacles. Airsoft had the fun-factor of paintball, but with the realism and military combat discipline I craved. In my eyes, it was the perfect sport.
I watched the videos, studied the guns, and had even attended a few local GBB skirmishes to get a feel for the game. After nearly a year of research, I’d gotten AEG and upgraded it to a skirmishable level (1.5J); I also purchased a TM M3 Super90 fullstock as an alternate main. Now, I need to find a big OP to really test my equipment and skills.

Fast forward to OP: Thunder II, 08/29/2005. Night after night of fake CQB in my house should be paying off today. I am ready and rarin’ to go on my first big OP! Let’s hope airsoft is really all it’s cracked up to be...
As I walk down the trail to OPORD base, I meet a few friends and decide that we’ll form a fireteam together. We assign each person a designation: SAW, DM, TL, Asst. TL, Point, or Rifleman. We also figure out the chain of command. As we walk in our little group, I spot a sniper performing a communications system check with his spotter while fiddling with his KA Dragunov’s bolt. My fireteam watches in awe as 6 men walk by us in full authentic gear, testing their GPS systems and lightheartedly cleaning mags and headset mouthpieces. I suddenly feel horribly underdressed in my black UnderArmor top, generic woodland pants, and Leapers loadbearing vest; I look away from the “pro” team in embarrassment and make a note to get some good gear before my next OP.

We reach our base and begin a last-minute inventory of magazines, loose ammo, and any other accessories we may need when battling the enemy forces. I check my fireteam, making sure that everything is as it should be; all systems go. I give my TL a nervous thumbs-up and come to low ready, just as I had read in those Army Field Manuals. I place a reassuring hand on the shoulder of Point, who is at high ready in front of me. He is an avid paintballer, and this is his first airsoft game; he is armed with a CA MP5A4 and 2 200rd hicaps.

BLAM! The starting signal goes off, and I provide overwatch as Point scouts ahead. We enter a wide field and are almost immediately engaged by an OPFOR fireteam. I can vaguely see the enemy SAW’s position, and pop up from my cover to take him out. To my surprise, I am not using my scope to aim; as a matter of fact, I am holding down my trigger and guiding the white stream of plastic into my target. Nearly 30 rounds later, I squat back down and do my best to reload my gun as our real SAW suppresses the OPFOR squad. We move into thick underbrush and continue on.

Not ten minutes later, we are pinned down yet again by another OPFOR fireteam. This time, they are well-concealed in the thick underbrush of the forest; no one can spot them. I begin to spray plastic downrange and yell, “Go go go! I’ve got your 6! GO!” Suddenly, I notice that I am dry-firing; even more disturbing is the fact that I’m almost firing from my hip. I frantically try to reload, only to realize that I just wasted my entire hicap in under a minute and a half. I search my vest in a panic, thinking that I am out of ammo. Fortunately, I have one last magazine left; although it’s a standard, it’s a helluva lot better than nothing. I slap it in and begin to feel the gravity of my situation.

My fireteam agreed ahead of time that no one was going to be left behind. Although we did take advantage of the opportunity to quote Blackhawk Down, it made sense to us; a team is a group of people that stick together, and that’s exactly what we were going to do. Once my teammates saw me dive for cover and panickedly search my vest, they knew I wasn’t going anywhere without their help. My TL quickly devises a plan to extract me from my position. Unfortunately, the OPFOR had moved into a good flanking position by that time and started picking off the COs of my team; namely, my TL and Asst. TL. So, I’m stuck with Point, SAW, Medic, and Rifleman. All 4 take up a defensive position and valiantly try to hold their ground. SAW ran out to me, spraying more plastic downrange at my unseen attackers; he was mowed down. Point also tries, double tapping all suspected locations (please note that a paintballer, a dreaded “spray-and-prayer,” was far more ammo conservative than the rest of us) while Rifleman supplies cover fire; Point was mowed down as well, although he got significantly farther than SAW did. Finally, I’m on my own. Rifleman isn’t going to move, because he’s needed back at the defensive position. Medic is too valuable because he can heal us on a limited basis; besides, all he has is a KJW 1911 GBB. I think out my options, slap my standard again to be sure that it ‘s in securely, and go into a low crouch.

‘Cover me!” I yell as I sprint to my team’s defensive position. I hear a series of dry-fires, a mumbled “sh*t” from Rifleman, and the whizzing of dozens of bbs past my head, now unimpeded by friendly suppressive fire. I dive into my team’s stronghold to an odd sight: Rifleman has an empty M4, while Medic is doing his best to lay down cover fire for my approach. I immediately turn around and train my gun on the source of the bbs. Now, I’m using my scope and being very careful to use semiauto only. As I provide precision cover fire for my team, they exfiltrate safely, leaving me to cover my own retreat. I am tagged in the arm on my way out, making it my first death of the game.

What changed from my first 2 magazines? It seems like my last mag was the only one that really made a difference, while all others were simply wasted. Was I made more aware of my surroundings due to adverse circumstances? Yes. Was I concerned that I wasn’t going to make it out of that situation alive? Yes. Well, what made my trigger discipline change so much? The answer is simple: my combat psyche underwent a drastic change.

The combat psyche is something that all airsofters, paintballers, and even those NERF lovers amongst us have. It is the mindset that we have during a skirmish. Each person has a unique combat psyche, although many peoples’ are very similar.

Here’s an example: imagine that you’re at a large OP, about 200 AEG-wielding people strong. There are 2 extreme situations that I can utilize to illustrate the combat psyche:

1. You come armed with a mechanized walker, with miniguns sticking out of every available space. Hits only count on a 3’’ circle on the top of the walker’s body. You have a 400 fps AEG shooting with a cyclic rate of 2500rpm for your PDW, just in case your walker fails. You have Gen4 NVGs and all the other Gucci gear you can imagine if you decide to be a ground-pounder for a while.
2. You come armed with a 120 fps non-hopup springer pistol. You only have poor-quality 0.12g bbs and have no spare magazines. Your gear is very basic, and you lack the “latest and greatest” gear, like MARPAT digital camo, radios, or a hydration pack.

In case #1, you would have a very relaxed approach to the skirmish. Everyone would be horrendously outgunned and you would be basically invincible to all enemy forces. You wouldn’t view the skirmish as much more than a shooting gallery, and would probably be sipping on a Coke while mowing down squad after squad of OPFOR soldiers. Your firepower is unparalleled, so your tactics and fieldcraft are completely irrelevant.

In case #2, assuming you decided to tough it out, your situational awareness would be raised to an incredible level. You would be horribly outgunned by even the most basically armed AEG wielder, and therefore you must rely on your survival instincts and stealth skills first. Your firepower is nothing, so your tactics and fieldcraft are everything.

You might be asking yourself why such extremes were used. The truth is, many people view a fullauto upgraded weapon as good reason to act like case #1: walking around with absolutely NO technique or ammo conservation, spraying bbs everywhere and acting like Rambo. This is a bad habit to get into, as the same firepower with a case #2 mindset would be incredibly effective. The problem lies here: how does one get into such a tactical, cautious, and intelligent combat psyche? The answer lies in firepower deprivation.

Just as described in case #2, reducing one’s perceived firepower can increase one’s situational awareness exponentially. Sometimes, your gun won’t get you out of every bad situation. This is a little-accepted fact in airsoft circles, and it really is unfortunate; many skirmishes can be won through fieldcraft alone.
This feeling of reduced firepower is the exact reason I tout TM shotties so much for use against AEGs. Their range is on par with, if not a bit less, than a stock AEG. Their power is the same as that of a stock AEG. Their ROF is easily a tenth of a stock AEG’s ROF, which makes them a challenge to use successfully in combat. Here is where the elevated combat psyche comes into play. Your mind is much more alert and “in the game,” allowing you to acquire targets faster, compensate for crosswinds more precisely, pick cover and concealment more wisely, and generally stay two mental steps ahead of your AEG-wielding buddies.
The mental benefits of TM shotties disappear when they become the new standard for superior firepower, however. In a springer match, you’re better off with a TM handgun or some other less powerful weapon; again, this makes you rely more on your survival skills instead of your weapon.

For some people, there is no cure for the triggerhappy blues. They will spray, they will miss, and they will run out of ammo faster than you can say “dead battery.” For others, though, tough times call for desperate mindsets, and those desperate mindsets pull the elite warriors out of many of us. I’ve been alongside some truly excellent airsofters who are the definition of “combat effective”; without their fullauto weaponry, they are reduced to combat ineffective shells of troops. Therefore, more power, ammo, and batteries to ‘em; give them what they need to succeed. For others of us, a more primal approach is needed. Going back to the basics can lead to some very interesting and educational experiences.

OP: Thunder II Confirmed kill count -
Upgraded 1.5J AEG: 0 confirmed kills
Stock TM M3 Super90 fullstock shotgun: 7 confirmed kills

ardrummer292

Edited by BattlePriest, 04 January 2006 - 10:25 AM.

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#2 Slidstryker91

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:12 AM

Very good explanation, Drummer. however, this does not always work. back when I had springer matces with my friends, my pistol had 5 shots less than everyone elses. Once you factor in the enemies' familiarities with the terrain and the fact that they had the upper hand to begin with(2 on 1) a survival instinct does not make much of a difference. most of the games were lost by running out of ammo first, instead of getting hit.
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#3 ardrummer292

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:24 AM

QUOTE (Slidstryker91 @ Jan 3 2006, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Very good explanation, Drummer. however, this does not always work. back when I had springer matces with my friends, my pistol had 5 shots less than everyone elses. Once you factor in the enemies' familiarities with the terrain and the fact that they had the upper hand to begin with(2 on 1) a survival instinct does not make much of a difference. most of the games were lost by running out of ammo first, instead of getting hit.


This is true. Then again, all of the negative factors combining together would make me exceptionally careful with my movement, fire discipline, etc...

This is applied to me, and it doesn't always work for everyone. Gimme a break, I wrote it out at 3am! a-laugh.gif

Thanks for your constructive criticism, Slidstryker91.
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#4 Dmitri

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:57 PM

VERY well put. My friends Flan and Staph found this out the hard way when they dueled one on one in my forest. Staph used a Hardball shotty with one mag and Flan used a KWA GBB Glock with the full-auto setting. Staph won because he was more ammo-conscious. When he and I fought, we both used relatively the same principles (though I had more shots in my one mag), and I narrowly won because I used the terrain to increase my chances in a CQB gamble. What's awesome is that he and I had only played three backyard skirmishes with our friends the previous day (which were the first three skirmishes we've EVER played), yet we knew how to be tactical and resourceful. It's amazing what simple instinct and survival skills will do for you in those situations.

Bravo to you for being the first to write this down for us to see with our own eyes, dude!
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#5 ardrummer292

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 09:01 AM

QUOTE (Dmitri Kalashnikov @ Jan 3 2006, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bravo to you for being the first to write this down for us to see with our own eyes, dude!


Thank you, sir. I think these shotties are making me go all introspective... a-shocked.gif

I don't understand how other people have fun when playing airsoft, honestly. Spraying ammo downrange is like plinking, but with moving targets. What's the fun of being in a firefight if it's one-sided and easy?

Edited by ardrummer292, 04 January 2006 - 09:02 AM.

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#6 Guest_BattlePriest_*

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 10:20 AM

Very nice article Drummer boy. n a-wink.gif

I'm gonna edit its layout a bit (to make it easier to read) then pin it.....
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#7 Guest_Lacessit_*

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:10 AM

Very nice, that's how I try to play..

I run with 4 mags of 70 rounds, and am usually pitted against highcaps & occasionally drum mags. While I occasionally succumb to the adrenaline inspired desire to hang onto the trigger, I find my field performance is far better when I manage to maintain proper fire control.

Edited by Lacessit, 04 January 2006 - 11:10 AM.

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#8 Novalord2

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 01:38 PM

Loved every word of it.
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#9 ardrummer292

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:33 PM

QUOTE (BattlePriest @ Jan 4 2006, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Very nice article Drummer boy. n a-wink.gif

I'm gonna edit its layout a bit (to make it easier to read) then pin it.....


Really? Jeez, I didn't see that one coming. Thanks, BP! a-grin.gif

QUOTE (Lacessit @ Jan 4 2006, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Very nice, that's how I try to play..

I run with 4 mags of 70 rounds, and am usually pitted against highcaps & occasionally drum mags. While I occasionally succumb to the adrenaline inspired desire to hang onto the trigger, I find my field performance is far better when I manage to maintain proper fire control.


It really is a challenge to restrict your fire when taking a massive volume of it in return. It all depends on your movement, choice and position of cover, and (most importantly) your level of situational awareness at that specific point in time. If you're up and alert the entire game, you're much less likely to spray excessive amounts of ammo.

QUOTE (Novalord2 @ Jan 4 2006, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Loved every word of it.


I don't know if that was sarcasm or a real thank-you...
Thanks, anyway! a-grin.gif
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#10 IAmSin

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:40 PM

QUOTE (ardrummer292 @ Jan 4 2006, 05:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't understand how other people have fun when playing airsoft, honestly. Spraying ammo downrange is like plinking, but with moving targets. What's the fun of being in a firefight if it's one-sided and easy?

exactly my cousin got his utg (mp5) and thought he had the upper hand just for the capacity of the hicaps and I owned him soo bad with a be steyr with the regular mag
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#11 Garth

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:42 PM

I like to stay on only semi with my AEGs. plus the fact that all I have for my M14 is the standard 70 round mag, I am pretty much forced to take careful aim, and im glad I do.
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#12 Thomme

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:43 PM

I agree with you, Drummer. Although I don't walk onto fields feeling as though I'm invincible with my AEG, I do find myself very unafraid of the kids with the springers at the field. As though they can't touch me.

But likewise, two years of playing with a UHC MP5 has tought me very strict trigger control. I never use my M1A1 in full auto at a game (for fear of emptying all four magazines in one small firefight) and I always use controlled bursts with my MP5K (mainly becuase if I use it in single, it jams up).

Trigger control is something that I've noticed a lot of people with hi-caps lack. Playing, I'll find the guy with the hi-caps out of ammo long before I am, and I'm toting around 330 rounds for my MP5K or 240 for my M1.

Very interesting phenomon that I've never really stopped to think out. It's great at the end of a game while we're waiting for another game to start and chit-chatting with a couple guys, "oh, I hope this games quick, I've only got about 90 rounds left," "really? I've only got half a hi-cap left." and my jaw drops.

But it's true. A lot of people feel the need to utilize their hi-caps and their full auto as much as possible.
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#13 Guest_Leon Kennedy_*

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 06:00 PM

Thats why Im getting a G19. Auto is just wasteful. I can take out plenty of people just aiming and using sights. Plus, its more stealthy than firing madly at one guy.
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#14 Novalord2

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 07:21 PM

"I don't know if that was sarcasm or a real thank-you..."

Not sarcasm....I play with a ROF disadvantage too, and it works ok for me. I suck at essay writing though : )

Edited by Novalord2, 04 January 2006 - 07:22 PM.

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#15 ardrummer292

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 09:56 PM

QUOTE (Novalord2 @ Jan 4 2006, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not sarcasm....I play with a ROF disadvantage too, and it works ok for me. I suck at essay writing though : )


All right, then. Thank you! a-grin.gif

Edited by ardrummer292, 04 January 2006 - 09:56 PM.

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#16 mister miles

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 08:49 PM

This is one of the best theorys ive ever heard you can make a book lol
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#17 pants500

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 09:03 PM

I have to say Bravao to you ardrunner

"1. You come armed with a mechanized walker, with miniguns sticking out of every available space. Hits only count on a 3’’ circle on the top of the walker’s body. You have a 400 fps AEG shooting with a cyclic rate of 2500rpm for your PDW, just in case your walker fails. You have Gen4 NVGs and all the other Gucci gear you can imagine if you decide to be a ground-pounder for a while."

"In case #1, you would have a very relaxed approach to the skirmish. Everyone would be horrendously outgunned and you would be basically invincible to all enemy forces. You wouldn’t view the skirmish as much more than a shooting gallery, and would probably be sipping on a Coke while mowing down squad after squad of OPFOR soldiers. Your firepower is unparalleled, so your tactics and fieldcraft are completely irrelevant."

very very good view, That's why I just sold my Mp5, and is selling my mac 11 soon...
btw im getting a kjw mk1 sniper :P
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QUOTE (nuclearfeet @ Jun 4 2006, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#18 endofhartake07

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 09:16 PM

excellent essay!!
I definately agree in all aspects of it.
Me. I usually use Semi or full auto on a 3-5 round burst.
also with highcaps you have to wind it about what? every 20 shots?
im lookin into G&P midcaps because of the less space needed for the same ammo capacity.

anyway. again I say
excellent essay!!!

Edited by endofhartake07, 14 January 2006 - 09:27 PM.

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#19 Guest_triggerhappy_*

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 10:12 PM

Wow! Great post! Take note of my name. I frequently run out of ammo at the very beginning of a game. Not too long ago I had a small game. I had superior firepower and I had a lot more experience than anyone there. But the whole time I kept getting hit. I just couldn't hit anything, and I didn't know why. A little while after the game I realized "Oh my gosh... I wasn't aiming!" I had been holding the gun to my cheek, but looking right by the sights, just trying to put a lot of plastic down range.

Your topic has inspired me to slow down, and only take a shot when I can hit the target (not taking pot shots at a simi-concealed target 200 feet away). I think I'll get a scope or good red dot for my new UTG.

Monday I'm going to test out the new tactic on a friend, then see if I can score some kills in a big game.

Edited by triggerhappy, 14 January 2006 - 10:54 PM.

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#20 i3lack Voodoo

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 10:59 PM

excellent post drummer. this kind of thing happened to me at my last OP, me and my buddies, one has a CA33E, the other a UHC Mp5, were walking up a creek and happened along a fireteam of "Gucci" goons, to borrow your term. they had 2 SAWs in their squad and a host of M4's. we were out number and some what out gunned. we had better position in the creek though and used shorter bursts. they were raining it down on us. we got atleast 4 of them before my battery died ( it was late in the day) and my other team mates got hit. needless to say I was proud of our performance because when I first saw their team before the first game I was quite intimidated by them.

anyway, great post, certainly good advice for people. thats one of the reasons why I'm going to get a moderate sniper rifle for a nice change of pace from assaulting.

kudos to you drummer and headbang.gif
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#21 Arsonry

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 12:01 AM

man you guys are lame. Using your so called 'tactics' and whatnot. ardrummer just gave you all the right way to plya airsoft and NONE of you are listening. Lucky for me. I play the right way. before every game I juice up my E-Frame and start pwning newbies like you exo-squad style. its pretty funny to watch people scurry about like :censored2: roaches as I have all 19.5 guns on full auto spewing bbs like there's no tomorrow. So what if I use 2,000,000 rounds per game? Its not like I'm playing paintball. Its so much more fun to just walk/fly around and just shoot anything that moves. beats crounching being a fallen tree any day. If you're going to play serious airsoft buy the serious equpiment. GET AN E-FRAME. sheesh. freaking newbies.


In case you all couldn't tell that was sarcasm at its finest biggrin.gif I think ardrummer couldn't me more correct. One can even get carried away with the TM shotgun. 10 shots is REALLY not that much. So far I've only been blasting away soem pieces of cardboard with it and I've been surprised a few times by a dry fire or two. Its really something to watch out for. That's one of the reasons I got the M3 super 90. Good call ardrummer, good call. headbang.gif
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"A bullet always tells the truth."
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Please...vote here to have a guides section to post instructions on how to do various things with airsoft guns!!

#22 i3lack Voodoo

i3lack Voodoo
  • Location:College Station, TX

Posted 15 January 2006 - 12:14 AM

QUOTE (Arsonry @ Jan 14 2006, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
man you guys are lame. Using your so called 'tactics' and whatnot. ardrummer just gave you all the right way to plya airsoft and NONE of you are listening. Lucky for me. I play the right way. before every game I juice up my E-Frame and start pwning newbies like you exo-squad style. its pretty funny to watch people scurry about like :censored2: roaches as I have all 19.5 guns on full auto spewing bbs like there's no tomorrow. So what if I use 2,000,000 rounds per game? Its not like I'm playing paintball. Its so much more fun to just walk/fly around and just shoot anything that moves. beats crounching being a fallen tree any day. If you're going to play serious airsoft buy the serious equpiment. GET AN E-FRAME. sheesh. freaking newbies.
In case you all couldn't tell that was sarcasm at its finest biggrin.gif I think ardrummer couldn't me more correct. One can even get carried away with the TM shotgun. 10 shots is REALLY not that much. So far I've only been blasting away soem pieces of cardboard with it and I've been surprised a few times by a dry fire or two. Its really something to watch out for. That's one of the reasons I got the M3 super 90. Good call ardrummer, good call. headbang.gif


haha, man you had me real good with that one. I was like wow what an ..... oh wait, he got me. a-laugh.gif
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Armament: TM M14, TM M3 Super 90, CA36C, 2x KWA M945

#23 p51

p51
  • Location:Done with airsoft
  • Interests:No longer airsoft. I'm tired of it.

Posted 17 January 2006 - 12:38 AM

The really sad thing about this entire thread was that the first point made here even had to be made at all. One of the biggest reasons I quit doing paintball (back in the 1980s) was the high-capacity boxes everyone started to have on their guns and the appearance of the full-auto Tippman SMGs. I watched some paintball stuff on TV last year and couldn’t believe what the “sport” had become. All the people were now dressed like motorcycle riders, and if you watch carefully, you can see that many of them aren’t even looking at all when they’re firing. It reminds of a film I have of the Marines at Hue City in Vietnam. Lots of M-16A1s being raised over cover and fired with only fingers exposed to the enemy. Sure, you don’t get hit that way, but it’s sure no way to win a war. Has anyone here ever read on the bullet-to-kill rations in WW1 v/s WW2 and then v/s Vietnam? It took a shipload of rifle/MG ammo in Vietnam to get just one kill.
I was at NW Tactical one day just before they closed it down and I overheard a guy talking to another one about a “gravity hopper” he was making for an airsoft weapon. Sounds frighteningly close to what paintball guns are like now, for my tastes.
Paintball to me was still fun when you had a finite number of rounds. I actually used to whack people all the time with my PGP (it was a bare-bones shotgun-action pistol). I’d pair up with some folks will full-auto stuff. I’d take cover with them, let them fire a bunch of bursts, then while they kept the other team occupied, would often just walk right up to the other guys and pop them all. Usually they had no idea anyone was even there until they were all hit. Think of it. A guy standing up out in the open with only a single shot weapon takes on a bunker with eight guys and waxes them all. I did it at least once every time I went out. I once busted a seal in my gun and refused to leave the event. I pulled out a slingshot and a hand full of paintballs and took out the entire opposite team (over a dozen of them) within five minutes. All of them had been doing it for a longer time than I had. All thought their expensive gear would solve any problems. None of them ever lived it down when they found out “silent paint” can be launched from a $3.00 weapon.
And when I went active duty, I often handled the OPFOR, and I’d play merry heck with the other side. In Army ROTC, I personally waxed so many of the MS-3 cadets (the ones getting ready for advanced camp) that I was taken off that duty because I was messing with their confidence levels. And when I was doing it on active duty, I even once managed to mount a MILES emitter on the end of a M1903 Springfield (five shots, strip clip fed single shot). Going up against a fire team of about 12 men, I managed to pop ten of them before their SAW gunner saw me. And that was only because I had to relocate to reload. I have no more high-speed skills than anyone else. I just have a background of real-life shooting and hunting. And I was dirt poor for a lot of that. Bullets cost money. And once I got into WW2 re-enacting, I found myself at events that lasted an entire weekend where I got involved in all kinds of large firefights. But I never shot at anything I wouldn’t possibly be able to hit in real life. I went some large events where I never even finished off one clip of .30-06 blanks (a clip for an M-1 only carries eight rounds) even though there was firing all around me. If I never saw someone that I wouldn’t be able to hit, I didn’t bother to shoot. Let the “spray and pray” crowd do that. Fire discipline. I swear it must be a lost art these days. And it isn’t me being cheap that kept me from popping blanks. I also did that on active duty where Uncle Sam was footing the bill for the fireworks.
I firmly think that anyone who grew up a shooter but had little money for the bullets is more likely to be naturally better at it. All the great citizen soldiers were all from hardscrapple backgrounds. Alvin York, Audie Murphy, guys like that all came from next to nothing. Conservation is the key to battlefield success. Look at the Rangers at Mogadishu in 93. They went in over confident, sprayed ammo all over the place and soon found themselves in a hairball with not enough ammo. Without good air support, they’d have been slaughtered.
I’ve read through these forums, and I roll my eyes at lot of it. Lots of people here think that in a game you need the most expensive gear you can find. Good gear alone won’t help you. Look at what the VC in ‘Nam was able to do with almost Neolithic conditions and technology. Expensive toys won’t get you out of a scrap. Ability will. Hopefully this weekend, I’ll be in the middle of my very first tactical airsoft event. I’m looking forward to it. My guns won’t be the best out there (ICS MP-5, and a WE hi-capa), neither will my duds (probably my WW2 HBT uniform with my jungle boots and a Dutch camo smock, as I’m again OPFOR). But I fully expect to make a good accounting of myself because I have had good training, always exercise good fire discipline, and above all, I have patience.
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Done with airsoft.

#24 NoRemorse

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 04:14 AM

QUOTE (triggerhappy @ Jan 14 2006, 09:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow! Great post! Take note of my name. I frequently run out of ammo at the very beginning of a game. Not too long ago I had a small game. I had superior firepower and I had a lot more experience than anyone there. But the whole time I kept getting hit. I just couldn't hit anything, and I didn't know why. A little while after the game I realized "Oh my gosh... I wasn't aiming!" I had been holding the gun to my cheek, but looking right by the sights, just trying to put a lot of plastic down range.

Your topic has inspired me to slow down, and only take a shot when I can hit the target (not taking pot shots at a simi-concealed target 200 feet away). I think I'll get a scope or good red dot for my new UTG.

Monday I'm going to test out the new tactic on a friend, then see if I can score some kills in a big game.

Bump to the original topic.... It's like poetry. Fire discipline, love it.
From experience and training I have learned that anything from 35-50 yrds. you should keep both eyes open. Anything farther than that, keep only your dominant aiming eye open. Keeping both eyes open gives you situational awareness. Something a 45 degree FOV(Field Of View) doesn't give you. Your FOV is something to keep in mind especcially when the enemy lines are of mixed density.
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#25 slickhare

slickhare

Posted 22 January 2006 - 05:13 PM

I completely agree with what you said about paintball. it really is turning into a "who has the shiny-er gun" fest. it's more about who has more money to spend than about stealth, tactics, or real fun. I think that airsoft is great because you can formulate your own playing style instead of the generic spray and pray of paintball. of course there are paintball marksmen out there, but they're overshadowed by 15 b.p.s $2000 gun hot shots.

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nothing atm

#26 Guest_BattlePriest_*

Guest_BattlePriest_*

Posted 22 January 2006 - 09:51 PM

And I must point out that 50 percent of all those who have replied in this thread that they TOTALLY agree with Ardrummer..... will end up bb hosing downrange at their next airsoft game.

Sorry... but I see it happen ALL THE TIME... even the most dedicated mil sim and realism people often end up losing their mind and their soul to the bb hose phenomenon when they hit the field and come up against against spray and prayers.

I even caught myself doing it on occasion way back when I had an AEG... in the end I went for a semi auto only loadout.. and I have been all the better since.
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#27 Guest_Leon Kennedy_*

Guest_Leon Kennedy_*

Posted 22 January 2006 - 09:56 PM

I can't BB hose, man. Semi-auto only.
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#28 endofhartake07

endofhartake07
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 22 January 2006 - 09:59 PM

QUOTE
I completely agree with what you said about paintball. it really is turning into a "who has the shiny-er gun" fest. it's more about who has more money to spend than about stealth, tactics, or real fun. I think that airsoft is great because you can formulate your own playing style instead of the generic spray and pray of paintball. of course there are paintball marksmen out there, but they're overshadowed by 15 b.p.s $2000 gun hot shots.


man my buddy has double rocker trigger and can do 25BPS...on semi auto...(with his paintball gun)

but to enforce the point--



BB hosing is happy...

Edited by endofhartake07, 22 January 2006 - 10:00 PM.

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#29 Guest_BattlePriest_*

Guest_BattlePriest_*

Posted 22 January 2006 - 10:21 PM

QUOTE (endofhartake07 @ Jan 22 2006, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
man my buddy has double rocker trigger and can do 25BPS...on semi auto...(with his paintball gun)

but to enforce the point--
BB hosing is happy...


You do realize that the paintball hosing and double triggers, and the new electric auto triggers and the current tactics used in paintball tourneys and even now, weekend games, were forced on the paintball gaming commuity under the radar, so they could make more money right?

QUOTE
OK, I call this meeting of the Brass Eagle corporation and its partners to order. Our first speaker has something to say about future plans to increase revenue

Hgmmm... chmm.. OK we need to pay off or buy out all the paintball magazines in circulation, and get their authors to write articles explaining why the most effective method for pushing the line and gaining ground is to shoot faster and use more paint.... I will take recommendations now for who we should hire to come up with this idea so as to not arouse suspicion in the paintball gaming community. It must be done in such a way as to make the paintballer think it is actually the best way, and not to allow suspicion that it was only a marketing ploy... which as we all here at Brass Eagle and associates know... were gonna make a MINT off of these suckers.... HahHah Ha Ha Hah Hah....

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#30 Dmitri

Dmitri
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grayson, Georgia
  • Interests:Airsoft, philosophy, guns, hentai, scifi, and anime

  • My Temperament:Melancholy

Posted 25 January 2006 - 11:25 AM

QUOTE (BattlePriest @ Jan 22 2006, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And I must point out that 50 percent of all those who have replied in this thread that they TOTALLY agree with Ardrummer..... will end up bb hosing downrange at their next airsoft game.

Sorry... but I see it happen ALL THE TIME... even the most dedicated mil sim and realism people often end up losing their mind and their soul to the bb hose phenomenon when they hit the field and come up against against spray and prayers.

I even caught myself doing it on occasion way back when I had an AEG... in the end I went for a semi auto only loadout.. and I have been all the better since.



Yeah, I fell victim to BB-hosing when I first used my XM8, but I ran out of ammo in a matter of 5 seconds or so because the mag only holds 28 shots. Now, whenever I fire, I conserve my shots for accuracy and use semi-auto only.
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#31 the infamous skullboy

the infamous skullboy

Posted 25 January 2006 - 04:04 PM

I'd have to agree. I couldnt BB Hose if I wanted to, due to a springer shotgun being my best weapon. (my previous being a clear plastic crosman beretta acquired at wal mart for less than 20$). BB hosing would be fun, but tactically useless.
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#32 Guest_Agent Hunk_*

Guest_Agent Hunk_*

Posted 02 February 2006 - 09:59 PM

I like my standard magazines. Never needed more then 5 yet I carry so many.
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#33 NoRemorse

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 02:35 AM

QUOTE (Agent Hunk @ Feb 2 2006, 08:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I like my standard magazines. Never needed more then 5 yet I carry so many.

Standard mags are a good training tool. You can get 10 Star Std. mags for I think $42. Even MAG corp. makes 100rd mid-caps 8 packs for $42. It's a progression. 300 then 100 then 64 the 30 rd mags. Although that would take way too much time. Just say " censored2.gif it" and fill your vest with standard mags and see how you do. It will make you think and only shoot at what you can hit, instead of laying walls of plastic down.
Tactics and fire discipline, thats where its at.
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#34 Guest_Agent Hunk_*

Guest_Agent Hunk_*

Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:35 PM

When I say standard I meant the 68 round TM magazines. The STAR are plastic and wont even fit into my rifle correctly.
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#35 airsoftfarmer

airsoftfarmer
  • Location:dunn nc
  • Interests:airsoft,xfiles,real-steel,building forts and bunkers for airsoft, and farming

Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:41 PM

There should be a slow rof and fast rof setting on airsoft guns like the BAR. Then you could provide suppressive fire and not waste as much ammo, but you can still shoot fast when you need to.
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#36 NoRemorse

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 05:25 PM

QUOTE (airsoftfarmer @ Feb 5 2006, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There should be a slow rof and fast rof setting on airsoft guns like the BAR. Then you could provide suppressive fire and not waste as much ammo, but you can still shoot fast when you need to.

It's called semi and full automatic. Fire discipline and trigger control. idea.gif
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#37 Cowboy

Cowboy

Posted 12 February 2006 - 05:49 PM

Ya, I love the tactical adrenaline rush I get out of the game, thats why I play, I love trying to sneak up to someone and snipe them off. I live in a VERY wooded area, and its very challenging getting a good shot when ur only shooting one bb between each :censored2:. ( I use HEAVY camo and a Sniper rifle) a-wink.gif
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#38 Corey

Corey

Posted 13 February 2006 - 12:29 AM

This is absolutely true. My friend and I really enjoy paintball, but don't want to fork out the 1000+ bucks for a good gun, so we always just use rental guns. However, because of this we are often more mobile, stealthy, and ammo conservative than the "pros". I will never forget the game that I took out 2 players with absolutely no ammo, using nothing but planned movement, strategy, and the mercy kill rule.

QUOTE (p51 @ Jan 16 2006, 10:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sure, you don’t get hit that way, but it’s sure no way to win a war. Has anyone here ever read on the bullet-to-kill rations in WW1 v/s WW2 and then v/s Vietnam? It took a shipload of rifle/MG ammo in Vietnam to get just one kill.


Gee, maybe thats because in the WW's they had rifles, and in Vietnam they had freakin M-16's. And oh yeah, Vietnam was in A JUNGLE. Sorry man, I agree with whatcha said about how dumb spray and pray is, but sometimes my debater mode takes over and I have to reveal why a given statistic or argument is ridonculous.
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#39 airsoftfarmer

airsoftfarmer
  • Location:dunn nc
  • Interests:airsoft,xfiles,real-steel,building forts and bunkers for airsoft, and farming

Posted 14 February 2006 - 08:55 PM

QUOTE (NoRemorse @ Feb 12 2006, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's called semi and full automatic. Fire discipline and trigger control. idea.gif


If you use semi to conserve ammo you can't provide supressive fire unless you switch to auto and then you blow your ammo faster than if you had a slower rounds per minute setting.

Edited by airsoftfarmer, 14 February 2006 - 08:57 PM.

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#40 NoRemorse

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 05:42 PM

QUOTE (airsoftfarmer @ Feb 14 2006, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you use semi to conserve ammo you can't provide supressive fire unless you switch to auto and then you blow your ammo faster than if you had a slower rounds per minute setting.

You've lost your mind.. Yes you can provide suppressive and selective fire with semi. If you want to lower your ROF, upgrade your gun, with the proper gear ratio your guns ROF will slow down. But until Mauri comes out with a browning automatic rifle, you're out of luck.
When you have quality airsoft rifles, you will stop making comments like that.

Edited by NoRemorse, 17 February 2006 - 05:44 PM.

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