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Idiom

GBB for RS substitute practice?

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I've never handled an airsoft GBB that I can recall, nor has anyone immediately accessible to me, google isn't turning up much, and sorry if this question isn't allowed BUT:

Would you consider airsoft GBB handguns a substitute for RS practice?

I've heard the kick is a little less than a 9mm.

 

The handgun range is cheap, but ammo is godawfully expensive. I want to be able to impress my buddies when we do end up at the handgun range.

 

Must be a GBB. Must have considerable kick. Must be accurate enough to be relevant to a RS at up to ~50 feet at the most (~3" groupings or less at 50 feet maybe? Even possible?)

 

I'm interested in the Army G17 and the Bell 1911. I was looking at WE in the 100$ range, but I hear they are gas hogs. Much past 150$ and I won't consider it. Both the Army and the Bell have been getting very positive reviews. They are TM compatible from what I can tell, and very cheap so I think I can throw an upgrade part in if need be.

 

I'm really not familiar with gas airsoft guns.

Edited by Idiom

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If you use co2 or red gas, and a very high recoil spring, then you could get some considerable recoil.

It would probably kill your internals relatively quickly.

 

Army and bell are crappy.

 

If you want to get used to higher recoil, then find a gun with an available high recoil spring. And then stretch it out a bit.

It will make then gun VERY inefficient, so make sure to keep the stock spring.

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Even then, they're nowhere close to being the same

 

The only way you're going to get good at a pistol range is to go out and shoot a real pistol

 

Nothing you can do will prepare you for that first shot, either

Edited by TyGuy94920

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The only way you're going to get good at a pistol range is to go out and shoot a real pistol

 

Nothing you can do will prepare you for that first shot, either

I've already been there done that. I need something that costs less than 50$ an outing to work on stance, hand stability, and general aiming consistency.

 

I can't find much on those shell eject 8mm Marushins, but I would pay the $$$ for one of those.

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Short answer:

 

No

 

I think that is BS. I have a WE 1911 (C02) and while the recoil is nothing compared to a real .45 ACP, I think GBB's are great for RS practice. They are much more realistic than AEGs/AEP's and really help with going through reloads and such.

 

I would love to have a GBB m4 for practice for my AR...but GBBR's are just so expensive to maintain.

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Would you consider airsoft GBB handguns a substitute for RS practice?

They is a guy in the IPSC that lives in Japan. He practices with airsoft then comes here and shoots real steel in competition.

However, His Airsoft cost about the same as his Real Steel and we're talking at least $1K.

 

I would say invest in KJW, KWA, or SOCOMGEAR. Those are your best, Inexpensive, bets. they are however over you $100 limit. the ARMY and Bell aren't that great and could possibly be disappointed in the performance.

 

I suppose you could buy a KJW. They wont give you anything close to realistic recoil. My 6 year old brother can shoot those.

No airsoft gun can give you a realistic recoil. A 6 year old could shoot a lot of things. It's just the discipline and ability to hold on that differs from an adult and a child.

 

WTF is that on the end of the gun? A recoil compensator? That has to be the ugliest thing ive seen in my life.

It's just a longer barrel.

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I would love to have a GBB m4 for practice for my AR...but GBBR's are just so expensive to maintain.

You could probably just do with the upper and mags. The lower is almost the exact same as RS.

 

The sad part of GBBRs are that the most expensive part in Airsoft is the cheapest part in RS.

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KSC has some "hardkick" models at around 100$ USD at ehobbyasia.

 

I'm thinking a TM hardkick DE is my best bet. From the reviews I'm reading it's very accurate and kicks hard enough it will throw off your aim a bit.

 

Anyone find anything on the KSC Hardkick M9's? I can't find much. Some say they're wonderfully accurate, and some say they're horrible.

Edited by Idiom

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I wouldnt substitute airsoft training for rs... theres a lot of factors to take into account when dealing with real steel, including everything from recoil to hot shells being ejected, plus the seriousness of knowing you can easily kill someone wit a beretta m9, as opposed to giving them a red welt with a marui.

 

gbbs are as realistic as it gets to real steel, but NOT a good training substitute.

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Thank you Marsoc

 

Someone who shoots firearms as part of his daily life agrees with me

 

The only substitute for RS shooting, is more shooting

 

You can easily hold a GBB the wrong way and never know it, you hold a RS gun the wrong way, you will. Instantly and painfuly

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I've never handled an airsoft GBB that I can recall, nor has anyone immediately accessible to me, google isn't turning up much, and sorry if this question isn't allowed BUT:

Would you consider airsoft GBB handguns a substitute for RS practice?

I've heard the kick is a little less than a 9mm.

 

The handgun range is cheap, but ammo is godawfully expensive. I want to be able to impress my buddies when we do end up at the handgun range.

 

Must be a GBB. Must have considerable kick. Must be accurate enough to be relevant to a RS at up to ~50 feet at the most (~3" groupings or less at 50 feet maybe? Even possible?)

 

I'm interested in the Army G17 and the Bell 1911. I was looking at WE in the 100$ range, but I hear they are gas hogs. Much past 150$ and I won't consider it. Both the Army and the Bell have been getting very positive reviews. They are TM compatible from what I can tell, and very cheap so I think I can throw an upgrade part in if need be.

 

I'm really not familiar with gas airsoft guns.

Well, recoil is just barely more than a .22, when loosely handled.

 

My Glock is running 150% recoil springs, and a solid metal slide.

 

 

I would go KWA or KSC. Some KSC's come with metal trademarked slides, but they're expensive.

 

The KWA's are cheaper, roughly $100-$120. Great, solid performers, and you can get basic power upgrades, such as a recoil spring, or hammer spring.

 

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Short answer:

 

No

 

Short answer:

 

Yes

 

I've already been there done that. I need something that costs less than 50$ an outing to work on stance, hand stability, and general aiming consistency.

 

I can't find much on those shell eject 8mm Marushins, but I would pay the $$$ for one of those.

 

Someone selling one here and on traders for $200 shipped

 

Looking on Ehobby asia because they have a pretty extensive selection of gas handguns, unless someone can point out another store.

 

... OH MY GOD. It's a hard-kick version too.

 

I'm guessing I'll have to grab a TM for the accuracy I'm after? What else is comparable to a TM GBB for accuracy?

 

TM Desert Eagle has the most kick and probably the best stock accuracy out of any Pistols I've shot.

 

It is completely possible to simulate the kick of a 9mm in a pistol, what people here don't understand is that most pistols on the market are made of plastic or aluminum which makes the kick not nearly as hard because the material is light. It's the same concept with BBs, there is more force/energy behind things that are heavier even if it is moving slower. If you go with a TM Hicapa or WA SCW Magna there are places that will CNC a slide out of steel for you (But it aint cheap). Pair that up with high flow valves, nice stiff recoil spring, hammer spring, tightbore barrel, piston head and floating valve you could definitely simulate recoil to an extent. It is true that many people who practice IPSC use airsoft as a method for training when they hit the RS events. I own a KSC USP .45 with a steel slide, steel barrel and high flow valves, and the kick on that is pretty decent. I would still go with a TM Desert Eagle as it has a little more kick than my USP .45.

 

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You can easily hold a GBB the wrong way and never know it, you hold a RS gun the wrong way, you will. Instantly and painfuly

 

hooyah

 

 

It is completely possible to simulate the kick of a 9mm in a pistol, what people here don't understand is that most pistols on the market are made of plastic or aluminum which makes the kick not nearly as hard because the material is light. It's the same concept with BBs, there is more force/energy behind things that are heavier even if it is moving slower. If you go with a TM Hicapa or WA SCW Magna there are places that will CNC a slide out of steel for you (But it aint cheap). Pair that up with high flow valves, nice stiff recoil spring, hammer spring, tightbore barrel, piston head and floating valve you could definitely simulate recoil to an extent. It is true that many people who practice IPSC use airsoft as a method for training when they hit the RS events. I own a KSC USP .45 with a steel slide, steel barrel and high flow valves, and the kick on that is pretty decent. I would still go with a TM Desert Eagle as it has a little more kick than my USP .45.

 

the point im making is that there is a lot more to "simulate" with airsoft than just the recoil. IMO the only acceptable training substitute for real steel is.... real steel.

 

if I had to complete a small arms course, or a home safety course, and I had the choice between an airsoft gun or real steel, well, my choice would be obvious. when I went through boot camp, weapons familiarization courses, marksmanship training, weapons qualifications and safety courses etc... the only option is real steel.

 

when working up for both of my deployments, we didnt use airsoft. we used real steel with barrel plugs. sure, airsoft would have let us safely pull the trigger and hit someone, but theres just a feeling of urgency, danger, and importance when you have a REAL m4 shouldered and ready to fire. airsoft can NEVER simulate that for me.

 

just my 2 cents...

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Guest RAIDER SIX

IMO airsoft guns are a poor training option for real steel. There are so many differences between the two. Range, recoil, trigger pull, weight, sights, accuracy. These are all so different that you won't really develop the skills necessary to be good with real steel. You can acquire some basic shooting skills, but that is about it. If you really want a cheap way to practice buy a .22 conversion kit for your pistol. It won't have the same recoil, but it is a good cheap way to practice. Good luck to you.

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My opinion......

 

Like Vain said, you can def replicate recoil with a Airsoft gun to a point.

 

I wouldnt say that its the best way to learn for RS shooting but it can surely give you something close.

 

Nothing is gonna be an exact copy of shooting RS besides shooting RS.

 

But if u want some practice on shooting and working the pistol then a Airsoft GBB is the closest ur gonna get.

 

All in all it can give you some help but expect to have to compensate for things like higher recoil and spent shells once u get to the range and are firing a real pistol.

 

 

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I am going to disagree with the general consensus here. I think Airsoft, and other airguns(AA), are good practice. I recall reading a study once on peace officer training. The method used was to start one group with regular .38 training loads. The other group was started with .22 cal in the same frame revolver (must have been S&W, I think they are one of the few to have .38 and .22 on the same frame). At some point they were then switched to the .38s'. The group that started on the .22s' shot as well as the group that started on the .38s'.

 

In a practical sense, lets look at some of the reasons. With a gun you can shoot at home you will shoot more. There is no question that more practice will make you a better shooter. To address the concern that the grip position may not be proper, it is clear that the OP is reinforcing the AA (I lump them together because I practice with a single shot .22 BSA air-pistol) practice with RS time; therefore, I suspect that he would immediately notice any errors in technique.

 

It is well known that even dryfireing can make you a better shooter. It is the practice of sight alignment and triger control. Airsoft/airgun/dryfireing (AAD) also presents the advantage of suppressing a flinch reflex. This is a recomended practice for DCM shooters (DCM shooting is a 600m target sport).

 

So, I will argue in favor of AA shooting for practice on the condition that a person will do more of it. This will aid in sight alignment and trigger control practice while providing a visible reference (the hole in the paper) to support the practice while supressing any finch reflex.

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which makes the kick not nearly as hard because the material is light. It's the same concept with BBs, there is more force/energy behind things that are heavier even if it is moving slower.

Why didn't I think of this? This solves my original concerns, but:

What would happen if the slide was too heavy for the GBB design? It wouldn't fully cycle? It would cycle a lot slower? I have some heavy metal plates I could just tape to the sides of the slide. They're the perfect dimensions too.

 

I own a KSC USP .45

Have you used their M9's? Ehobbyasia has some "hardkick" KSC M9's for 100 USD. I can't find anything on them.

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Why didn't I think of this? This solves my original concerns, but:

What would happen if the slide was too heavy for the GBB design? It wouldn't fully cycle? It would cycle a lot slower? I have some heavy metal plates I could just tape to the sides of the slide. They're the perfect dimensions too.

 

 

Have you used their M9's? Ehobbyasia has some "hardkick" KSC M9's for 100 USD. I can't find anything on them.

 

It depends on where you seat the metal plates, however, it would be more efficient if your slide is made of of steel. There is definitely that possibility, there is a much slower cycle rate on my USP .45 but IMO that makes it a bit more realistic as you can double tap with it. Normal GBBs you cant double tap with because the slide returns much to fast. Taping metal plates to the side of your slide may be an issue however due to I can't imagine the weight being perfectly and evenly distributed, I forsee problems.

 

I have not had any experience with KSC M9's.

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I think that is BS. I have a WE 1911 (C02) and while the recoil is nothing compared to a real .45 ACP, I think GBB's are great for RS practice. They are much more realistic than AEGs/AEP's and really help with going through reloads and such.

 

I would love to have a GBB m4 for practice for my AR...but GBBR's are just so expensive to maintain.

 

 

I agree with you! I do 85% of my shooting practice with my KWA G17. I carry the Glock .45 GAP at work, and I've shot nothing less than a 95% since the mid 90's. The last two years my quals have been perfect scores. Funny but that's about the time I started using my GBB for practice.

 

The ideas of stance, grip, trigger control, breath control, sight picture, sight alignment, and movement are the same. Sure you don't have the range of a RS pistol, and not the recoil, but if the others pieces are down pat, those are easily and quickly trained...

 

Go for it my friend. But I do caution you on shooting in the backyard where you're in public view. It tends to freak out the neighbors and people driving by...

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^^^ Yea I agree, I wouldnt be backyard shooting as the boys in blue could very easily turn up at ur front door lol.

30 foot indoor hallway FTW then.

 

GBB as RS practice substitute is BS/OK

Not of my concern anymore. What I'd really like is some more info on the GBBs themselves. Unless anyone has a better suggestion, I think I'll dig up a used TM DE hardkick OR look into some more KWA and KSC models and just slap some weights on the slide.

 

TM DE hardkick 15 feet:

target_dehk.jpg

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Honestly I wouldnt recommend putting weights on the pistol.

 

Theres no way to know if the weight is distributed correctly, therefore u wont get a true feel for it.

 

U can take another style of pistol and just do some upgrades and have the recoil pretty powerful.

 

It all comes down to personal preference I guess.

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KWA PTP or go home.

Yes, I've been looking at KWA NS2 GBBs.

Their M9 mags I've heard have a thin part that break easily, so I'm looking at their USP models.

3.5" groupings at 25 feet braced on a table. Not phenomenal, BUT if I can do that standing without bracing it, I'd be just fine with that.

 

Someone else asked in that KWA NS2 USP review thread, but it hasn't been answered:

Does the NS2 USP have a standard barrel cut? Can I get a regular cut tightbore for it?

Edited by Idiom

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Someone else asked in that KWA NS2 USP review thread, but it hasn't been answered:

Does the NS2 USP have a standard barrel cut? Can I get a regular cut tightbore for it?

 

PDI makes one for the KSC USP .45 System 7 (Same thing) which will work. Its 40 bucks.

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Something about the NS2 USP slide not locking back all the time. Anyone have personal experience with this problem?

 

PDI makes one for the KSC USP .45 System 7 (Same thing) which will work. Its 40 bucks.

:a-grin:

 

And what's with this synonymous thing going on between KWA and KSC gas guns? Rebranding?

For the NS2/System7, it's the same pricing whether I'm at ASGI or ehobbyasia for identical KWA/KSC models, so I'm not complaining, but I am curious.

Edited by Idiom

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You could probably just do with the upper and mags. The lower is almost the exact same as RS.

really?? Has anyone here done this?

 

The sad part of GBBRs are that the most expensive part in Airsoft is the cheapest part in RS.

 

whats that? Mags?

 

 

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