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apocalyptus

170 spring has less power than 150?

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Hi guys,

 

It's been a while since I've posted on this site about my upgraded TM vsr10 due to the fact that I am almost ready to throw in the towel on airsoft sniping. I have spent hundreds of dollars and countless mods to try and get the performance out of the gun that most on this site are stating. My problem this time is the fact that the 170 spring has given me nothing but crap. Here is my loadout so you can get a better idea of what I'm experiencing.

 

-TM vsr10 pro

-150sp or 170sp(will explain)

-firefly hop up bucking hard type

-Stock cylinder

-Stock cylinder head

-Laylax z trig with orange piston

-Replaced #13 size o ring on the piston

-EdGI 6.01mm 430mm inner barrel

-Custom electrical tape barrel spacers (4)

 

Now on to the explanation of my many problems occuring with this rifle.

 

(1)

I have tested with Madbull .43's and madbull .40's. I used a 170 spring to test both. I was not getting anything close to what I imagined in range and accuracy, especially with that godforsaken expensive barrel. I then took and replaced the 170 spring with my original 150 spring and IT SHOT FURTHER AND HAD MORE ACCURACY. Why? Oh why? The range was more than just a considerable jump. It was probably an 80ft difference in range. I am very confused, because I thought the 170 was supposed to shoot further and harder than the 150 considering it is more powerful. Makes sense right? Well obviously I have a jacked up rifle because it is the exact opposite.

 

(2)

I purchased a laylax silent dampener head, but it will not screw on to the stock cylinder head completely. Why? I have heard of others doing that without a problem. Someone mentioned that it was made for the teflon cylinder, but I have seen countless upgrade lists on this site with that listed on there without the cylinder.

 

(3)

Someone recommended the nineball hop up bucking to me, so I bought it. I own a firefly hard bucking as well. I have done countless tests with both and I can safely say both of them are giving me inconsistencies in some way. But The rifle seems to shoot further with the firefly and slightly more accurate, but I am ABSOLUTELY clueless to what to do.

 

(4)

People have mentioned shimming the hop up arm and teflon wrapping the bucking to the barrel. I am scared to shim my hop up arm, because I WILL screw it up and make it worse haha. I am going to try and teflon wrap my hop up bucking in case of an air leak from it when I shoot. Speaking of which I have done the compression test and my cylinder does not leak at all.

 

Thanks guys in advance for any help on these four problems, mainly #1, which blows my mind completely. I am *this* close to just giving up on this rifle that has caused me so much money and time with little to no change. I appreciate any help.

 

Blake

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there are two points of possible air leakage in an air soft rifle...

 

 

the piston not compressing air, or the hopup bucking releasing air.

 

the nineball gives me the best results.

 

I have all laylax parts and im shooting 543 FPS, very consistently with a 150 sp.

 

 

go back to your hopup, makesure you have a solid seal...

make sure when you cycle the bolt, the nozzel of the cylinder head is entering a few milimeters into the bucking.

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Just try to eliminate where the air leak could be. Test seal at nozzle with both springs and see which one holds longer. Without no leak, it should be able to hold forever. With a harder spring, air leaks will come into play more because the air is being compressed faster and pushed out of those holes quicker.

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How are your spacers spaced? If they are symmetrically it can cause inner barrel to resonate as the bb moves down the barrel. If you asymmetrically place the spacers it will decrease any vibrations due to resonance, especially with higher power springs.

 

And are those spacer exactly the same 100%? If they aren't it cause the barrel to bend, given you are using a 6.01mm tight barrel invest in sum spacer. Since these are really tight tolerances way smaller then the thicknesses of a human hair, and electrical tape thickness ranges from 0.11mm--0.2mm that will cause a bend.

 

Both leads to energy loss because the bb will end up bouncing off the walls of the inner barrel rather than riding on a cushion of air.

 

I had a similar problem when I went from 170 to a 190 spring using a 555mm long 6.01mm tight bore , so I bought a laylax spacer set and placed one a few cm from the muzzle and the other 3/5 down the barrel, that fixed it.

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If it adds any comfort I had the same problem with my laylax dampener head. Guess the threads were off or something.

 

Anyway odds are you aren't getting the preformance you want because it isn't tuned properly. I can tell you right now that shimming the hopup will really help. Its not that hard, if you need a link to a guide to it, PM me.

 

As for the FPS, its a seal issue. I have 150 spring and it chrono'ed at 430 because of poor seals.

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the laylax cylinder head is meant for the Teflon cylinder.. the reason that it doesn't work on yours and because a lot of people don't tell you you need to get a Teflon for the cylinder head to work is because... You have a TOKYO MARUI. I have had both and I can tell you from experience the tolerance on the threads is looser, or even cut just a tad bit different, so the cylinder head works with it. As for the Tokyo Marui, the tolerance/cut of the threads on the cylinder is not as nice... they do that on purpose so you have to by the Teflon cylinder, unfortunately.

As for the inconsistencies, they are on the right track with the air seal and then the spacers. Side Note, there is alot of debate on the Firefly since it is a REALLY hard bucking... but I can tell you the the firefly is NOT worth it when you have the pronged type Hop Up Arm that you do. The firefly nub is already concave so with the extra prongs of the hop up arm it can be a little much, making it be pretty inconsistent when the bb lines up each shot against it. I would go Nineball since it gives the best air seal of all the buckings out there (minus noobies True Fit Bucking).

Main thing I would tell you... DON'T USE MADBULL!!! So what if they are heavy... if they have terribly inconsistent internals with all the air bubbles and such, plus a VERY dirty outside with an unimpressive polish... YOU WILL NOT be seeing the results you want.

All in all man, a word of encouragement... as snipers, we have ALL had frustrating times... that just comes with it. Keep pressing forward knowing that one mistake teaches you one more thing.

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the laylax cylinder head is meant for the Teflon cylinder.. the reason that it doesn't work on yours and because a lot of people don't tell you you need to get a Teflon for the cylinder head to work is because... You have a TOKYO MARUI. I have had both and I can tell you from experience the tolerance on the threads is looser, or even cut just a tad bit different, so the cylinder head works with it. As for the Tokyo Marui, the tolerance/cut of the threads on the cylinder is not as nice... they do that on purpose so you have to by the Teflon cylinder, unfortunately.

As for the inconsistencies, they are on the right track with the air seal and then the spacers. Side Note, there is alot of debate on the Firefly since it is a REALLY hard bucking... but I can tell you the the firefly is NOT worth it when you have the pronged type Hop Up Arm that you do. The firefly nub is already concave so with the extra prongs of the hop up arm it can be a little much, making it be pretty inconsistent when the bb lines up each shot against it. I would go Nineball since it gives the best air seal of all the buckings out there (minus noobies True Fit Bucking).

Main thing I would tell you... DON'T USE MADBULL!!! So what if they are heavy... if they have terribly inconsistent internals with all the air bubbles and such, plus a VERY dirty outside with an unimpressive polish... YOU WILL NOT be seeing the results you want.

All in all man, a word of encouragement... as snipers, we have ALL had frustrating times... that just comes with it. Keep pressing forward knowing that one mistake teaches you one more thing.

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I disagree with the Madbulls zyxtarion.

I went from a digicon .36s to madbulls .4s and my accuracy and range was increased. I can hit a body size target 200' every time vs the .36s where it was a hit and miss.

 

Do Teflon Tape the hopup though, it will help your air leaking from hopup.

Edited by northendtrooper

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I disagree with the Madbulls zyxtarion.

I went from a digicon .36s to madbulls .4s and my accuracy and range was increased. I can hit a body size target 200' every time vs the .36s where it was a hit and miss.

 

There are some batches that have turned out fine for people... but they are VERY hit and miss... I prefere consistancy rather than PRAYING that I get a good batch... (cant wait for Bioval .42's!!!) Btw im shooting 495-497 very consistantly and getting torso shots 7 to 8 out of ten shots at 250ft easy, reaching out to 275 if aim 2 mill dots above the target on a 3-9x40 m3 scope, set to 6x zoom. (this is with less than 3mph wind)

Thats with the bb king .32s... I wish they were a bit heavier for more range/less affected by wind but cant complain about the groupings im getting! :)

 

Airseal is really the thing to worry about... make sure that your hop up bucking is IN TACK as well... my sometimes your nub gets damaged or really dirty and there goes your accuracy.

 

I was barely getting torso shots at 200 then cleaned off my bucking with some warm water and foaming handsoap and then I got to 225ft accuracy with ease... just like a barrel it gets dirty after awhile.

 

Good luck with your tampering bro and let us know if we can help at all!!!

 

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How are your spacers spaced? If they are symmetrically it can cause inner barrel to resonate as the bb moves down the barrel. If you asymmetrically place the spacers it will decrease any vibrations due to resonance, especially with higher power springs.

 

And are those spacer exactly the same 100%? If they aren't it cause the barrel to bend, given you are using a 6.01mm tight barrel invest in sum spacer. Since these are really tight tolerances way smaller then the thicknesses of a human hair, and electrical tape thickness ranges from 0.11mm--0.2mm that will cause a bend.

 

Both leads to energy loss because the bb will end up bouncing off the walls of the inner barrel rather than riding on a cushion of air.

 

I had a similar problem when I went from 170 to a 190 spring using a 555mm long 6.01mm tight bore , so I bought a laylax spacer set and placed one a few cm from the muzzle and the other 3/5 down the barrel, that fixed it.

Yes, my spacers are set symmetrically all the way down the barrel, but this barrel is THICK

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How are your spacers spaced? If they are symmetrically it can cause inner barrel to resonate as the bb moves down the barrel. If you asymmetrically place the spacers it will decrease any vibrations due to resonance, especially with higher power springs.

 

And are those spacer exactly the same 100%? If they aren't it cause the barrel to bend, given you are using a 6.01mm tight barrel invest in sum spacer. Since these are really tight tolerances way smaller then the thicknesses of a human hair, and electrical tape thickness ranges from 0.11mm--0.2mm that will cause a bend.

 

Both leads to energy loss because the bb will end up bouncing off the walls of the inner barrel rather than riding on a cushion of air.

 

I had a similar problem when I went from 170 to a 190 spring using a 555mm long 6.01mm tight bore , so I bought a laylax spacer set and placed one a few cm from the muzzle and the other 3/5 down the barrel, that fixed it.

Yes, my spacers are set symmetrically all the way down the barrel, but this barrel is THICK so I don't think it is bending at all. EdGI barrels are known for their outer thickness. I can try some spacers, but I don't know if it'll be worth it ha. Thanks.

t

Edited by apocalytpus

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the laylax cylinder head is meant for the Teflon cylinder.. the reason that it doesn't work on yours and because a lot of people don't tell you you need to get a Teflon for the cylinder head to work is because... You have a TOKYO MARUI. I have had both and I can tell you from experience the tolerance on the threads is looser, or even cut just a tad bit different, so the cylinder head works with it. As for the Tokyo Marui, the tolerance/cut of the threads on the cylinder is not as nice... they do that on purpose so you have to by the Teflon cylinder, unfortunately.

As for the inconsistencies, they are on the right track with the air seal and then the spacers. Side Note, there is alot of debate on the Firefly since it is a REALLY hard bucking... but I can tell you the the firefly is NOT worth it when you have the pronged type Hop Up Arm that you do. The firefly nub is already concave so with the extra prongs of the hop up arm it can be a little much, making it be pretty inconsistent when the bb lines up each shot against it. I would go Nineball since it gives the best air seal of all the buckings out there (minus noobies True Fit Bucking).

Main thing I would tell you... DON'T USE MADBULL!!! So what if they are heavy... if they have terribly inconsistent internals with all the air bubbles and such, plus a VERY dirty outside with an unimpressive polish... YOU WILL NOT be seeing the results you want.

All in all man, a word of encouragement... as snipers, we have ALL had frustrating times... that just comes with it. Keep pressing forward knowing that one mistake teaches you one more thing.

I think I will try my nineball again haha. Madbull's were the only option for the heaviness for a 170 spring haha. But even with the 170 spring the .42's were dropping at 100 feet easily. when I put the 150 spring back in it shot the .42 even further. That blew my mind haha. What brand of heavy weight bb's should I be using? Thanks for all the help and encouragement ha

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