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huntermess77

Budget DMR Decision

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im thinking of retiring as a sniper and moving into the field of Team Designated Marksman. I am an owner of a fully upgraded CA m24 and have absoloutly loved the rifle. I need help finding what DMR to get. I LOVE the looks of m16's with rails on them instead of the classic foregrips. I also want to find a nice grip for the rifle if I do end up purchasing one of them. I'd like to have a kwa or ares, but this is real life and I don't have any more money. So what ive been looking at is Echo 1 and A&K. ive heard great things from both and so leave it upon the airsoft community to help me decide which rifle to purchase! I would like the rifle to reach out and touch someone from 240 feet at the end of the project. I need it to be as close as possible to my CA, but with Semi-Automatic capabilities!

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M4s are cool and that, but as DMR platforms are not so good, If you prefer performance over stetics, G36s and AKs perform much better.

 

If you are set in an AR platform, ICS M16 or TM M4 recoil engine are better performers than regular AR platforms

 

I honestly disagree with that. if you have a project gun, and you are upgrading just about every part of it, theres no need for a tm or ics. Basically when everything is said and done all you bought was a brand name, even though the gearbox, barrel and hop up unit are aftermarket parts

 

and g36's look like crap

an ak to svd project is a fail, just look at jg's $150 model

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Not speaking about changing the hop chamber for another brand one, by design, hop chambers perform better or worse, so AK/G36/M14/... work better than AR type chambers. I don't expect you to believe me, of course, just ask any serious DMR oriented player. Of course ARs can be tweaked to perform nicely in such role, they are just not the best base.

 

As I said, IF he goes for looks, he can choose whatever he likes, if he wants performance, regular ARs are not the best choice.

 

Not a fan of the G36 either, but they are better DMR platforms (in airsoft) due to hop chamber DESIGN, lighter, easier to work on, sturdier V3 gearbox... just not as cool as an AR, well, that depends who you ask to :)

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I don't know where all this hate is coming from on ARs, They make perfectly fine DMRs. The hop up isn't the greatest design, but there are easy fixes to make it great. The only thing that makes the G36/M14 hop up better is that they hold the hop better. They still have an arm that pushes a nub into the bucking, just like every other hop up out there. This is coming from a guy who is able to make 250ft shots with an M4 hop up.

 

There are also plenty of cheap things you can do to your Version 2 gearbox to make it solid, so it won't break. Just because it's not a V3 doesn't mean it's going to break.

 

I don't know much about the brands, but I think Echo 1 and A&K are the same stuff, just rebranded. What is your budget? It may be worth it to wait a while until you have the money to get a KWA.

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I have a fully upgraded TM Steyr Aug built for a DMR role, and I also have a fully upgraded G&P M16A4. And honestly both perform very similar. I think the only thing left that's stock internally on my G&P M16, is the GB shell itself but it's only shooting 410fps so it's not a concern. I can effectively reach someone at about 220ft easily with that gun. If you do an AR variant get yourself a Prommy Neo Strike Chamber, and use G&P hop up gears, then get yourself like an SCS nub, bucking of your choice, and a Prommy inner barrel and I think you'll be very happy with the results.

 

My TM Aug was built by the previous owner and was shooting 525fps when he had the gun. And it seriously could shoot almost as far as a fully upgraded bolt action. I ended up downgrading the FPS though to about 430fps to increase the longevity and I did lose range but it still shoots very far (230-240ft effectively). If you want to know specifically which upgrades are in each just PM me.

 

As for the whole V2 < V3 gearbox argument, I don't necessarily believe that it holds true. Just from owning DMR variants with both GB's. Like previously mentioned if they're fully upgraded and done right it doesn't matter. But I would trust my AUG (V3) shooting over 500fps a little more than I would with my M16A4 (V2).

 

For AR DMR's look into the ARES or G&P XM110's. CA, G&P, G&G as well as other brands also make SR-25's. Then you have the SPR MOD(0,1) MK12. I'm just listing these.

 

For a budget DMR, if you're going to upgrade all the internals a cheaper base to start out with is either a DBOYS SPR MK12, or a A&K SR-25.

 

I personally love my AUG DMR just because of its shorter length vs my M16A4, and I've got a KM 650mm inner barrel in it and it's got an over-all total shorter length vs my M16A4 with just a 509mm inner barrel. Bullpups make great DMRs.

Edited by Gunny87

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If you're working within a tight budget, you should consider a Cyma M14 as your base gun.

 

I was going to mention the CYMA M14 as well, but since he was more interested in AR variants I didn't mention it.

 

 

+1 for Bullpup DMRs, I'm using an L85 as my DMR and it's quite fantastic.

 

Thank you! I don't think enough people realize the potential of bullpups because of just how they look. Yes they are. Awesome L85 btw!

Edited by Gunny87

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Back up your statement.

LOL its not an opinion. Its fact.

 

There is not a single part of an AR that can beat the effectiveness of most other V# rifles.

Here are determining factors:

Hopup chamber

Gearbox

Barrel length ( not too much)

 

Nobody can logically tell me that a G36,AUG,Kalash,m14, or most other rifles lose to an AR.

Inherently, AR's have their internal faults.

 

AR's are known for having a bad hop up chamber ( in relation to competitive rifles.)

AR's are known for having a weak gearbox ( in relation to competitive rifles.)

AR's are known for having an average barrel length ( in relation to competitive rifles.),

AR's are known for having a TERRIBLE barrel length ( in relation to competitive bullpup rifles )

Edited by RunnerGunner

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Don't be afraid to get an AR from what RunnerGunner is saying. Any airsoft gun can preform like any other airsoft gun. They all work the same and can all be upgraded to work the same way. There are a few exceptions, but generally speaking, you can make any airsoft gun whatever you want with it; have a P90 DMR or a SR-25 shooting 40 rps.

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Don't be afraid to get an AR from what RunnerGunner is saying. Any airsoft gun can preform like any other airsoft gun. They all work the same and can all be upgraded to work the same way. There are a few exceptions, but generally speaking, you can make any airsoft gun whatever you want with it; have a P90 DMR or a SR-25 shooting 40 rps.

 

I have to agree, although it will take money and time, any gun can be made as good or better than any other gun

 

if you are talking STOCK guns, then yes, things are different

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lol guys.AR's have inherent weaknesses.

And don't give me this "gun equality" crap. What I said is 100% true.

 

And if in stock form AR's are inferior to other stock guns, why aren't upgraded AR's inferior to other upgraded guns?

Whether or not you upgrade your AR, you are still using a V2 box, a mediocre hop chamber, and an average length barrel.

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lol guys.AR's have inherent weaknesses.

And don't give me this "gun equality" crap. What I said is 100% true.

 

And if in stock form AR's are inferior to other stock guns, why aren't upgraded AR's inferior to other upgraded guns?

Whether or not you upgrade your AR, you are still using a V2 box, a mediocre hop chamber, and an average length barrel.

Did you have a traumatic experience with an AR as a child? Have you actually built a DMR/high fps set-up from both platforms and have proof to back up these claims, Gunny himself said that he owns a dmr of both GB types, and there is no appreciable difference at high levels of upgrading, which is the only level that such tiny differences would matter. Im not trying to call you out but when someone puts forth blank statements like "all ARs are inferior" and doesnt support them with REAL evidence like Gunny had, it confuses the OP and puts wrong info out there

now to the supposed "faults" of the AR platform

--Bad hop-up chamber-only difference is what operates the hop-up arm, gears vs drum. the drum can be just as inconsistent if not asembled properly. other options available,(madbull, Prommy NEO)

--Weak Gearbox-Radius, Sorbo, STS or 2gx/ICS shell, The guy helping me with my ICS dmr has a 500 fps AR dmr that has seen thousands of cycles. Look up the video of the STS being used to hold a CRACKED dboys shell together at 500 fps full auto

--average barrel length in relation to competitive rifles--not really a valid point. m14, g36, ak and AR platforms all have similar barrel lengths available(20' down to 10'

--barrel length in relation to bullpups--true, only problem is people sometimes don't like the look of them.

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I don't believe the AR is an inferrior rifle,IF you take the time to tweak it right. I had an TM M16a2 shooting 450fps, doing between 200 and 250 feet accurately with the iron sights. I didnt put tons of money of upgrades into it, I bought the thing used and I beat iit to hell, but it still shot like a dream. I eventually sold it, because I moved to a place where CQB was the only style of play, and bought 2 M4's with the money, which I believe I could upgrade to so the same as the M16.

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Did you have a traumatic experience with an AR as a child? Have you actually built a DMR/high fps set-up from both platforms and have proof to back up these claims, Gunny himself said that he owns a dmr of both GB types, and there is no appreciable difference at high levels of upgrading, which is the only level that such tiny differences would matter. Im not trying to call you out but when someone puts forth blank statements like "all ARs are inferior" and doesnt support them with REAL evidence like Gunny had, it confuses the OP and puts wrong info out there

now to the supposed "faults" of the AR platform

--Bad hop-up chamber-only difference is what operates the hop-up arm, gears vs drum. the drum can be just as inconsistent if not asembled properly. other options available,(madbull, Prommy NEO)

--Weak Gearbox-Radius, Sorbo, STS or 2gx/ICS shell, The guy helping me with my ICS dmr has a 500 fps AR dmr that has seen thousands of cycles. Look up the video of the STS being used to hold a CRACKED dboys shell together at 500 fps full auto

--average barrel length in relation to competitive rifles--not really a valid point. m14, g36, ak and AR platforms all have similar barrel lengths available(20' down to 10'

--barrel length in relation to bullpups--true, only problem is people sometimes don't like the look of them.

LOL no, in fact I have 3 AR's in my room. But im not going to pretend that since you can buy tons of upgrades to get them up to par, that AR's are not inferior.

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LOL no, in fact I have 3 AR's in my room. But im not going to pretend that since you can buy tons of upgrades to get them up to par, that AR's are not inferior.

I have many, many different types of guns, and about half of them are ARs of some sort. All the guns preform the same because all are stock. Why do you hate ARs so much? why don't you stop thread crapping and actually back up what you are saying.

 

Second, OP do you have a specific budget?

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lol guys.AR's have inherent weaknesses.

And don't give me this "gun equality" crap. What I said is 100% true.

 

And if in stock form AR's are inferior to other stock guns, why aren't upgraded AR's inferior to other upgraded guns?

Whether or not you upgrade your AR, you are still using a V2 box, a mediocre hop chamber, and an average length barrel.

 

The chambers are bad for moving which the madbull chamber fixes.

Gearboxes...get an ICS, their gearboxes are bullet proof as in Xaviermace put in an M190 and no cracks. Also split gearboxes are better, different fps's and such.

Ar's have more options to make a gun comfortable for you, that's what really matters for airsoft.

Free floated outer barrels that are rock solid are better in my opinion than AUG barrels and such. What really helps AEG's is fixing all they're tiny problems like this:

 

http://airsoftsniper.proboards.com/index.c...amp;thread=1291

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I have many, many different types of guns, and about half of them are ARs of some sort. All the guns preform the same because all are stock. Why do you hate ARs so much? why don't you stop thread crapping and actually back up what you are saying.

 

Second, OP do you have a specific budget?

LOL..... no I really mean it.

And if you actually consider the factual information in my posts, maybe you will get it.

 

soooo...guys..what is AR even refering to in this thread? lol

assault rifle?

 

...I'm hoping no, otherwise I am about to rofl at someone trying to tell everyone that EVERY assault rifle sucks, upgraded or not, lol

It refers to AR-15 variants, like m4's and m16's.

Edited by RunnerGunner

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No, M4 dmrs are inferior internally across the board.

 

LOL its not an opinion. Its fact.

 

There is not a single part of an AR that can beat the effectiveness of most other V# rifles.

Here are determining factors:

Hopup chamber

Gearbox

Barrel length ( not too much)

 

Nobody can logically tell me that a G36,AUG,Kalash,m14, or most other rifles lose to an AR.

Inherently, AR's have their internal faults.

 

AR's are known for having a bad hop up chamber ( in relation to competitive rifles.)

AR's are known for having a weak gearbox ( in relation to competitive rifles.)

AR's are known for having an average barrel length ( in relation to competitive rifles.),

AR's are known for having a TERRIBLE barrel length ( in relation to competitive bullpup rifles )

 

lol guys.AR's have inherent weaknesses.

And don't give me this "gun equality" crap. What I said is 100% true.

 

And if in stock form AR's are inferior to other stock guns, why aren't upgraded AR's inferior to other upgraded guns?

Whether or not you upgrade your AR, you are still using a V2 box, a mediocre hop chamber, and an average length barrel.

 

LOL no, in fact I have 3 AR's in my room. But im not going to pretend that since you can buy tons of upgrades to get them up to par, that AR's are not inferior.

 

LOL..... no I really mean it.

And if you actually consider the factual information in my posts, maybe you will get it.

 

It refers to AR-15 variants, like m4's and m16's.

 

Alright. There. I re-read your posts. Only one says anything that sort of backs you up, and they are still just generalizations. Both Gunny87 and I have tested out the Version 2 gearbox and have proven that they can hold their own. I have tested M4 hop ups and found them just as capable as the G36/M14/AUG/whatever hop up out there.

 

Just some proof is all we ask for. Have you worked on a V2 gearbox before? Have you worked with an M4 Hop up? Have you compared them to other stock guns?

 

+1 to what phantomwarrior said, one of the great things about AR platforms is that they are so customizable and upgradeable. You can find replacement parts for every single part of an M4, inside an out. Making it into a gun that fits however you play.

 

Sorry OP for all this thread crapping. I tried PMing RunnerGunner but he has ignored my PM.

Edited by Star_folder

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Actually, yes. And just because a V2 "can hold its own", doesn't make it an optimal choice for a DMR.

And saying that M4 hopups are on the same level as those other platforms, is just wrong.

 

Lets put it this way:

What internals of an AR make it superior to most other DMR candidates?

Since when have I ever hated AR's? I love AR's and I use them as primaries. But that's mostly an aesthetic preference.

And I think some of you guys need to brush up on English language. I said AR's are inferior. ( of low or lower degree or rank )

And that clearly means, in my perfectly clear vision, that AR's are of lower rank internally. That's a fact.

 

Heres another question:

Why on earth would Tokyo Marui create a V2 gearbox and a M4 hopup system, and then create a different version of the two for different guns? The answer isnt dimensions. They could add material to the parts exteriors to cut costs in development, but instead they IMPROVED on the designs. That's why we have improved Gearboxes, like a v3, and all of the latter gearbox designs. ( Not to say that higher numbers mean improvements )

 

Look, im an abrasive guy when I see faults in logic and reality. What I am trying to say, is that AR's ARE NOT INTERNALLY OPTOMISED ! You don't have the "pre-upgraded" inherent design that you might get from a g36 or m14. To say that they are exactly the same, is either a lie or a statement without correct backing. I know that an M16 isnt too far behind the G36K, but alas! It is. AR's are inferior.

Edited by RunnerGunner

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I do actually understand what RunnerGunner is saying. The V3 gearbox after-all was the next progression after the V2 and improved on many of the V2's weaknesses. Umm and If you were to compare an Aug vs a standard length M4 (Using RunnerGunners argument). The Aug has the same overall external legth as the M4 yes the Aug has a stock 509mm inner barrel vs the M4 with a 363mm inner barrel. Whereas my M16A4 uses a 509mn innerbarrel and it's external length is much longer than my Aug with the same length inner barrel. Again but that's comparing 2 different AR models to a Steyr Aug.

 

As for the hop up chamber debate. (and I've owned 2 AK's, 1 G36, my Augs so I have experience with different V3 hop up units...) Maybe stock M4 hop ups of lesser brands suck, but I happen to be very happy with the G&P hop up unit in my G&P M4, and am very pleased with the Prommy Neo Strike in my G&P M16....

 

When you try to generalize the differences of all V2 gearbox AEG's vs all V3 AEGs it gets a little complicated.

 

&lt;AT&gt; Yayapfool "AR" is also loosely derived from the company ArmaLite which was where Eugene Stoner developed the AR-10, AR-15 which is where the M16 evolved from....

Edited by Gunny87

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As for the hop up chamber debate. (and I've owned 2 AK's, 1 G36, my Augs so I have experience with different V3 hop up units...) Maybe stock M4 hop ups of lesser brands suck, but I happen to be very happy with the G&P hop up unit in my G&P M4, and am very pleased with the Prommy Neo Strike in my G&P M16....

I have to mildly disagree with this. High end M4 hopups do well, but high end alternative hop ups do even better.

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just throwin this in, but we're on the sniper rifle forum, it is well understood that barrel length barely makes an accuracy difference past MP5 length...

 

thank you Gunny87

 

so...you mean to tell me that runnergunner is saying EVERY assault rifle is inferior (even with upgrades) to rifles modeled after more DMR related guns?

that's just rediculous, I promise you I could mod the crap out of an M4 to freakin BE an M14, lol

and he's arguing they're just always inferior?..oh golly, I'm done, haha

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Okay short and sweet people claim that their A&K Sr25 can hit torso sized targets at 200 feet with the scs/systema bucking combo and that sounds pretty "budget" to me...

As for the massive thread crapping ars suck thing yes m4 hop UPS are inferior to the m14s amazing hop up unit. V2 gearboxs are a pain ( the trigger mechanical and the ar latch get it ar latch lol) they are pretty hard to get used to. And as for a nice grip spr style grips are extremely comfy I had a spr that worked fine as a.budget dmr it was and ark is an AR

 

That wasn't short or sweet

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AR= / = Assault Rifle

 

AR is a reference to the AR-15 series. Otherwise known as M4's and M16's.

Please read what I write before you insult me about it.

 

I assumed from the start AR was assault rifle, and if you read my posts, I said IF we are talking about assault rifles, blah blah blah

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Why do you keep referring to barrel length as a con when most people know barrel length really doesnt matter all that much. I could build a dmr out of an mp5 if I wanted to along with anyone that actually knows what they are doing.

 

Like others in this thread have already said, every hop up chamber uses an arm to push a nub and bucking onto a bb and create backspin. What matters most is the manufacturer of the chamber and is why aftermarket chambers are better because they were made to be better than the stock chambers.

 

When you say that the ar platform is "internally inferior across the board" then every v3 gearbox has internally weak parts as well since they share the same gears, piston, piston head, arl, bushing/bearings, and spring. V3's IMO were poorly thought out. The trigger mech should be like the v2, wires should be inside the box and not running all over the side just to begging to get pinched.

 

O and btw tm didnt design the gearboxes for improvements they were designed to fit into different body styles..............If you want to see a gearbox that actually was an improvment and not just made for a body style look at the G&G v7. that was a well thought out gearbox

 

OP if you have the money I would either get a KWA sr12 and get a new spring, mosfet, and a good battery if you can afford it or a CYMA m14 with an scs nub, systema bucking, nice battery, a m120, new spring guide, and a new piston

Edited by sergantsnipes

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Why do you keep referring to barrel length as a con when most people know barrel length really doesnt matter all that much. I could build a dmr out of an mp5 if I wanted to along with anyone that actually knows what they are doing.

 

Like others in this thread have already said, every hop up chamber uses an arm to push a nub and bucking onto a bb and create backspin. What matters most is the manufacturer of the chamber and is why aftermarket chambers are better because they were made to be better than the stock chambers.

 

When you say that the ar platform is "internally inferior across the board" then every v3 gearbox has internally weak parts as well since they share the same gears, piston, piston head, arl, bushing/bearings, and spring.

 

O and btw tm didnt design the gearboxes for improvements they were designed to fit into different body styles..............

 

OP if you have the money I would either get a KWA sr12 and get a new spring, mosfet, and a good battery if you can afford it or a CYMA m14 with an scs nub, systema bucking, nice battery, a m120, new spring guide, and a new piston

You just reinforced the idea that barrel length does matter to a degree, like I said.

Hopup chambers do differ. I don't know where you get the idea that all are the same, but only aftermarket manufacturers make them better. AR hopups are just not very consistent, and are finicky.

I'm talking about the gearbox shelll itself, and its relation to DMR optimism. Obviously a v2 loses that vote.

V2 gearboxes could have been the choice of gearbox for AK's,G36's,etc, but since there was MORE ROOM, which meant DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS, they could create SUPERIOR INTERNALS. They didnt need a V3 shaped box, but they had the newfound room to make one.

 

 

And a message to the community:

You seem to like to attack my ideas, because I am essentially one of the few who understood this from the beginning. And it was easy to jump on the bandwagon of saying a FEW positive words about AR-series rifles, which would somehow translate to the becoming of an optimal DMR from an M16, and the ridicule of an outsiders notion. It seems like you guys are taking my valid points and saying things like " Well.... sure but thats not a biiiig deal", or just outright refusing to believe them, because they aren't easy to understand. I say to you if you decide to refute my arguments, " Is an M16 or an AUG a better DMR, and why? "

Edited by RunnerGunner

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Runner Gunner extended my thoughts about airsoft AR platforms, so let me back his owns up.

 

* V2 Gearboxes require a bit more of fiddling and upgrading for DMR setups

* V2 Gearboxes are weaker than other "V" gearboxes

* AR type Hop chambers are inferior by DESIGN, even aftermarket hi quality chambers will NOT perform like a hi quality AK/M14/G36 hop chamber, and by hi quality, I talk about TM hop chambers

 

Thats enough for me to state airsoft AR platforms are inferior as a DMR base, BUT, im not saying they are bad, they can be turned on a good DMR, its just other models are a better base, and given the same money and quality parts, will perform better.

 

Of course, regular ARs are not the only option for an AR based DMR , ICS solved much of the "weakneses" in the AR platform and have some nice features. Other option is the new recoil engine M4 by TM, gearbox is stronger, hop chamber works like a dream, has the right inner barrel length (363mm), thats for performance, and please don't say recoil will mess with accuracy since its proven that these new gen M4s performs MUCH better OOTB than any other AR. If you don't like recoil, you can just dissable it. bad part is that its not a budget gun at 420$ at UNcompany (Carbine model)

 

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wow this thread expanded and whent way beyond my expectations

 

lol I think it went beyond all of ours.

 

But we need to know what your budget is. Specifically how much do you want to spend on a base AEG, and what is the max you want to spend on upgrades.

 

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