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Achieving maximum accuracy on a KWA M4?

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Ok, so I have been playing with a nearly stock KWA M4 for about six months now and it's been great. I've been using Goldenball .25g bbs with the stock barrel and the accuracy seems good for a stock gun. However, my friends and I are starting to play more with semi-auto only rules and I'd luck to bump up my accuracy a bit.

 

I'm thinking about switching my bbs to one of the following:

 

Goldenball .28: http://pointact.com/prod_GB5028W_282_2.html

Goldenball .30: http://pointact.com/prod_GB5030D_361_84.html (black colored bbs annoy me a bit...)

TSD .28: http://pointact.com/prod_GB5030D_361_84.html

Madbull .30: http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?...roducts_id=4707

Bioval .27: http://www.airsoftextreme.com/store/index....roducts_id=3717 (I know everybody is going to say these are the best)

 

I'm also thinking about switching out my barrel. Keep in mind that I will mostly be shooting at at targets 150+ feet away. Here are the barrels I am considering:

 

Prometheus 6.03mm (had one awhile back and liked it)

EdGi 6.01mm (I've heard that 6.03mm barrels are better for long distances, is this true?)

PDI 6.05mm: http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/upgrade-part/pa...-aeg-375mm.html

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

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Ok, so I have been playing with a nearly stock KWA M4 for about six months now and it's been great. I've been using Goldenball .25g bbs with the stock barrel and the accuracy seems good for a stock gun. However, my friends and I are starting to play more with semi-auto only rules and I'd luck to bump up my accuracy a bit.

 

I'm thinking about switching my bbs to one of the following:

 

Goldenball .28: http://pointact.com/prod_GB5028W_282_2.html

Goldenball .30: http://pointact.com/prod_GB5030D_361_84.html (black colored bbs annoy me a bit...)

TSD .28: http://pointact.com/prod_GB5030D_361_84.html

Madbull .30: http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?...roducts_id=4707

Bioval .27: http://www.airsoftextreme.com/store/index....roducts_id=3717 (I know everybody is going to say these are the best)

 

I'm also thinking about switching out my barrel. Keep in mind that I will mostly be shooting at at targets 150+ feet away. Here are the barrels I am considering:

 

Prometheus 6.03mm (had one awhile back and liked it)

EdGi 6.01mm (I've heard that 6.03mm barrels are better for long distances, is this true?)

PDI 6.05mm: http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/upgrade-part/pa...-aeg-375mm.html

 

Thoughts?

 

I'd personally go with the EdGi. Although if you go for the 6.01 over the .03 you have to be crazy picky about cleaning your barrel literally after EVERY use to avoid jamming. Also go with TSD .28's or KSC Perfects if you can find them. At a consistent diameter of 5.98mm they are quite possibly the best cost/quality/quantity ratio on the market.

 

*Also if you're looking for accuracy consider getting a 509mm inner barrel when you get it and use a barrel extension (I.e. mock suppressor) to cover the bit that sticks out. This will greatly increase your accuracy and range as well as pushing your overall FPS up a bit. Consider that if you lengthen the barrel on a KWA M4 gearbox you will need to swap the cylinder out for a "Type 0" to compensate the added length. All depends how much work you want to put into it.*

 

Both of my main weapons are KWA (KM16 SR12, and a KM4 S-Tactical) and I use what a preach. I have EdGi barrels and use KSC Perfects and with the KWA platform I have yet to be out gunned on the field. Happy hunting!

 

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The length of a gun's inner barrel has almost no effect on it's ranged accuracy.

 

All the top brands of inner barrels Prometheus, Madbull, PDI, Systema, EdGI and TM, whether they are 6.01, 6.03, 6.04 or 6.08mm, all shoot very close to one another.

 

G&G .28g bio BBs are very good.

 

Good luck.

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I'd personally go with the EdGi. Although if you go for the 6.01 over the .03 you have to be crazy picky about cleaning your barrel literally after EVERY use to avoid jamming. Also go with TSD .28's or KSC Perfects if you can find them. At a consistent diameter of 5.98mm they are quite possibly the best cost/quality/quantity ratio on the market.

 

*Also if you're looking for accuracy consider getting a 509mm inner barrel when you get it and use a barrel extension (I.e. mock suppressor) to cover the bit that sticks out. This will greatly increase your accuracy and range as well as pushing your overall FPS up a bit. Consider that if you lengthen the barrel on a KWA M4 gearbox you will need to swap the cylinder out for a "Type 0" to compensate the added length. All depends how much work you want to put into it.*

 

Both of my main weapons are KWA (KM16 SR12, and a KM4 S-Tactical) and I use what a preach. I have EdGi barrels and use KSC Perfects and with the KWA platform I have yet to be out gunned on the field. Happy hunting!

Everything I put in bold in this post is false. Switching to that barrel will have no performance increase except in maybe a gain of a little fps. Its airsoft not real steel where the longer the barrel means more rotation on the bullet making it more accurate. In airsoft the bb bounces around in the barrel and has no horizontal rotation.

 

With the barrel jamming. Most bb's are 5.95-5.93mm even if you have a 6.01mm barrel thats still .06-.08mm clearence in a 6.01mm barrel. Seriously I have had only one jam in an edgi barrel and that was after it got a ton of dirt in the barrel when I dropped my gun on a dirt mound.

From my experience with tsd bb's I have found that they suck. Personally I like the bb king .3's and .32's the best along with the G&G bio's

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I would still consider a tightbore. The thing is they will probably have less bumps inside the barrel (bumps that are invisible to human eye but affect bb). As said get Prometheus it is a very good steel barrel. In you are on a budget than madbull v2 alu barrels are great choice too.

 

I would (well...I did) invest money into better hopup chamber and better bucking/nub combo. Prometheus Neo Strike chamber is claimed the best (I am waiting for some more parts before I install it into my M4 DMR project) and also Systema bucking with STS nub. However I went with Element H-nub which also has some good feedback.

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I have noticed accurcy gains going from 6.08 stock to 6.03 or 6.01. The gains have not been significant, and the gains have been mostly related to groupings rather than the ability to hit a target.

 

I would say that if people think the BB bounces around in the barrel, then wouldn't a barrel that doesn't allow the BB to bounce around as much help to an extent?

 

Beyond that, a barrel only needs to be as long as it takes for the BB to stabilize. After that the length buys you nothing. There is not an extra "twist" added to the projectile so after that BB stops bouncing as much there is no more need for barrel.

 

 

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I would (well...I did) invest money into better hopup chamber and better bucking/nub combo. Prometheus Neo Strike chamber is claimed the best (I am waiting for some more parts before I install it into my M4 DMR project) and also Systema bucking with STS nub. However I went with Element H-nub which also has some good feedback.

The KWA uses a two-piece plastic hop-up. Installing a one-piece entails a lot of work. The 2G bucking with fins is about the best there is. The 2G bucking will not work properly with concave or H shaped nubs. Everything you describe is fine for a conventional AEG, but not for the KWA.

 

I tried an Edgi 6.01 in my SR-10. And went back to the stock, which is currently working like a laser. For some reason, a little better than my SR-12.

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^^ Hobosaur for the win!

 

This is the single best thing you can do to improve accuracy... the vibrations and movement of the inner barrel of an AEG is probably the single greatest limiting factor to its accuracy and it seems there are very few who care or do anything about it. I haven't found a perfectly effective way of doing it yet, but there are a few approaches that do an OK job. Some try wrapping the IB in electrical or teflon tape, some use foam spacers, o-rings, etc... it really depends on the gun you're using and the tolerances of your OB. Another way I'm looking into is to bore sets of 3 holes in triangular pattern in the OB at set intervals down its length, and use a hand tap to thread them for set screws.

 

Also, generally speaking, a tighter bore tends to have a negative effect on accuracy, so I would stick around the 6.05 range because the factor that does have a positive impact on accuracy is the smoothness and consistency of bore, which you will find in prommy barrels or the PDI linked above. A lot of people like the Madbulls as well, but the increase in accuracy is due to the higher quality of the barrel and not the tighter bore, just for the record.

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^^ Hobosaur for the win!

 

This is the single best thing you can do to improve accuracy... the vibrations and movement of the inner barrel of an AEG is probably the single greatest limiting factor to its accuracy and it seems there are very few who care or do anything about it. I haven't found a perfectly effective way of doing it yet, but there are a few approaches that do an OK job. Some try wrapping the IB in electrical or teflon tape, some use foam spacers, o-rings, etc... it really depends on the gun you're using and the tolerances of your OB. Another way I'm looking into is to bore sets of 3 holes in triangular pattern in the OB at set intervals down its length, and use a hand tap to thread them for set screws.

 

Also, generally speaking, a tighter bore tends to have a negative effect on accuracy, so I would stick around the 6.05 range because the factor that does have a positive impact on accuracy is the smoothness and consistency of bore, which you will find in prommy barrels or the PDI linked above. A lot of people like the Madbulls as well, but the increase in accuracy is due to the higher quality of the barrel and not the tighter bore, just for the record.

 

 

I agree with the quality comment but I have not seen a reduction in accuracy going to a tighter bore, and I have seen better groupings (this is over quite a few players and probably 40+ guns) is the overall effect. The ability to hit a single target doesn't seem to be effected by bore from what I can tell. I do agree however that getting too tight (6.01 and 6.00 etc) could have issues.

 

Not sure where you would add the set screws exactly but it sounds like what KJW and Tanaka do on their long guns.

 

What I have done before, is if you can solidify where the barrel meets the hop-up (like a brass ring), then aim to solidify the other end by sleeving it. This is where it meets the end of the outer barrel. Unless the barrel is stupidly long (PSG1+ and even not then probably) I don't think there could be any flex in the middle of the barrel if you truely solidfy both ends. This makes the least play you can get in the end of the barrel and will lead to the most accuracy. A tanaka I worked on needed this and I think it helped quite a bit on that gun.

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^^ Hobosaur for the win!

 

This is the single best thing you can do to improve accuracy... the vibrations and movement of the inner barrel of an AEG is probably the single greatest limiting factor to its accuracy and it seems there are very few who care or do anything about it. I haven't found a perfectly effective way of doing it yet, but there are a few approaches that do an OK job. Some try wrapping the IB in electrical or teflon tape, some use foam spacers, o-rings, etc... it really depends on the gun you're using and the tolerances of your OB. Another way I'm looking into is to bore sets of 3 holes in triangular pattern in the OB at set intervals down its length, and use a hand tap to thread them for set screws.

 

Also, generally speaking, a tighter bore tends to have a negative effect on accuracy, so I would stick around the 6.05 range because the factor that does have a positive impact on accuracy is the smoothness and consistency of bore, which you will find in prommy barrels or the PDI linked above. A lot of people like the Madbulls as well, but the increase in accuracy is due to the higher quality of the barrel and not the tighter bore, just for the record.

 

quick question: Is there any testing to show a tighter bore has a negative effect on accuracy? You'd think then you'd want to go a 6.10 barrel or the like rather than the stock 6.08 barrels. Wouldn't the angular effect of the hop-up end up causing the BB to further "bounce" down the barrel with more room and thus hurt accuracy?

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quick question: Is there any testing to show a tighter bore has a negative effect on accuracy? You'd think then you'd want to go a 6.10 barrel or the like rather than the stock 6.08 barrels. Wouldn't the angular effect of the hop-up end up causing the BB to further "bounce" down the barrel with more room and thus hurt accuracy?

To answer the second question first, when you're talking about barrels of equal quality with different bore sizes, there will be more bouncing in the tighter barrel. The lifting effect that the hopup imparts does not take effect immediately because there is a wall of air behind the BB that is pushing it and accelerating it out of the barrel. Only after it exits the barrel is the magnus effect able to kick in and start to create lift. On top of that, the BB is moving so fast that it's precisely the bore of the barrel that determines how much bouncing will occur (all other things being equal). Think of a highway toll booth. I'm in NY and we have the option of the EZ-Pass system where the booth picks up the signature of a tag that you attatch to your windshield, so you don't have to stop and pay an operator, you can just fly through and keep going. Now, if you drive through at 20 MPH it's no big deal avoiding the sides of the toll lane and the curbs that surround them, but if you were to try and fly through at 150 MPH you would probably have trouble NOT hitting the curb. That's what it's like for the BB. Provide a wider lane, and you will get less bouncing.

 

A lot of high-quality guns actually do come with HQ 6.10 barrels. A friend of mine just picked up a KJW sniper with one and it's dead accurate. Here's a quote from the DMR guide that YesOfficer just linked, "While we are considering barrels its also worth thinking about the bore size, most people believe the tighter it is the more accurate it is, if this is so why are most VSR users moving to 6.05mm bore barrels as they are more accurate than a 6.01? And why are some major Japanese companies starting to advertise 6.08mm barrels as their accuracy barrels?"

 

<AT>rootuser: did these improvements come from switching out high-quality 6.05's or 6.08's for tighter-bore (6.01) barrels of the same quality? Or were they low-quality stock barrels swapped out for high-quality TBB's? My guess would be the latter, and that would account for the better groupings. We also have to remember that the barrel is only one of many important factors that contribute to accuracy, and in a system as unstable as an AEG, you should be more concerned with having the rest of the gun properly tuned so that shots are consistent, movement and vibration are minimized, etc. There have been tests exploring the accuracy of various barrels, but they were not directed toward the question at hand. However, the conclusive finding was that it is the quality of the barrel that has the most impact on accuracy. As far as I know, the reccomendation to stay away from the tighter bores comes mostly from the experience of spring and gas snipers, and paintballers. I'm sure you could dig up some of their findings if you looked.

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To answer the second question first, when you're talking about barrels of equal quality with different bore sizes, there will be more bouncing in the tighter barrel. The lifting effect that the hopup imparts does not take effect immediately because there is a wall of air behind the BB that is pushing it and accelerating it out of the barrel. Only after it exits the barrel is the magnus effect able to kick in and start to create lift. On top of that, the BB is moving so fast that it's precisely the bore of the barrel that determines how much bouncing will occur (all other things being equal). Think of a highway toll booth. I'm in NY and we have the option of the EZ-Pass system where the booth picks up the signature of a tag that you attatch to your windshield, so you don't have to stop and pay an operator, you can just fly through and keep going. Now, if you drive through at 20 MPH it's no big deal avoiding the sides of the toll lane and the curbs that surround them, but if you were to try and fly through at 150 MPH you would probably have trouble NOT hitting the curb. That's what it's like for the BB. Provide a wider lane, and you will get less bouncing.

 

A lot of high-quality guns actually do come with HQ 6.10 barrels. A friend of mine just picked up a KJW sniper with one and it's dead accurate. Here's a quote from the DMR guide that YesOfficer just linked, "While we are considering barrels its also worth thinking about the bore size, most people believe the tighter it is the more accurate it is, if this is so why are most VSR users moving to 6.05mm bore barrels as they are more accurate than a 6.01? And why are some major Japanese companies starting to advertise 6.08mm barrels as their accuracy barrels?"

 

<AT>rootuser: did these improvements come from switching out high-quality 6.05's or 6.08's for tighter-bore (6.01) barrels of the same quality? Or were they low-quality stock barrels swapped out for high-quality TBB's? My guess would be the latter, and that would account for the better groupings. We also have to remember that the barrel is only one of many important factors that contribute to accuracy, and in a system as unstable as an AEG, you should be more concerned with having the rest of the gun properly tuned so that shots are consistent, movement and vibration are minimized, etc. There have been tests exploring the accuracy of various barrels, but they were not directed toward the question at hand. However, the conclusive finding was that it is the quality of the barrel that has the most impact on accuracy. As far as I know, the reccomendation to stay away from the tighter bores comes mostly from the experience of spring and gas snipers, and paintballers. I'm sure you could dig up some of their findings if you looked.

 

There will be more bounces because of the tighter bore, but the bouncing will be in a tighter area and the BB will move overall less up and down. Also, the KJW sniper stock (if you're talking about the M700) barrel is for hell. I just replaced two of them with a huge increase in accuracy on both guns at 200 feet being shot from a bench vise. I went from being able to only hit a man sized target at 200 feet to being able to put the same shots into the chest area of the same target at 200 feet. Now, some of that could definately have been to a barrel quality improvement, but not all of it. Also I went from the stock 6.10mm to 6.04. The one player who has had a chance to use his says there is a noticable increase.

 

I also disagree that the magnus effect does not actually begin until the BB has left the barrel. It begins immediately and as the BB overcomes its intial forward inertia it becomes more prevalent on the BB travel.

 

Now I am not prepared to say one way or another which is definately more accurate, in terms of just bore, but I would like to see a lot more information, including the math behind the reason this is the case. It is my belief that a barrel is there to stablize the BB. So the suggestion is that a tighter bore does not stablize the BB as well as a more open bore. I disagree with this assertion.

 

Here is my hypothesis: Being that a BB is ~5.96 +1/-1 in size, there is range of barrel sizes that will prove more accurate than others. This is to say, a 7.90 barrel will have accuracy issues, and a 6.00 barrel may also have accuracy problems. This would mean a range of say 6.06-6.03 is the "Sweet" spot for barrel bore.

 

I think this is probably a better way of thinking rather than assuming tighter bore is better or a more open bore is better. I get a feeling it may be a case of the knife cutting both ways. But I am willing to entertain any math some one can show me either direction.

 

P.S. Classic Army's "accuracy" barrel is 6.04. The reason for this is to avoid the guns jamming. I know this for a fact. It was not because 6.04 proved to be any more accurate than 6.03 or 6.05. They claim it is more accurate than their 6.08 stock barrel. Take note: They went DOWN in barrel bore size, not up.

Edited by rootuser

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There will be more bounces because of the tighter bore, but the bouncing will be in a tighter area and the BB will move overall less up and down.

What's important is the number of bounces, not the side-to-side distance traveled between bounces. Every time the BB bounces off a wall it loses energy, and the quality of the backspin imparted from the hopup is affected. Remember that we're talking about a difference of hundredths of a milimeter of lateral movement, and that just isn't enough to affect the outcome of the shot as much as the actual number of bounces. What the extra space does is it provides more air to slip by the sides of the BB, which also provides a nice cushion to help stabilize the BB

 

It is my belief that a barrel is there to stablize the BB.

Exactly.

 

I also disagree that the magnus effect does not actually begin until the BB has left the barrel. It begins immediately and as the BB overcomes its intial forward inertia it becomes more prevalent on the BB travel.

Not possible. The magnus effect works on the principle that there is a low pressure zone created under and slightly behind the spinning object due to its own inertia carrying it through a medium, which allows for lift. When the BB is in the barrel it is being pushed, and there is a huge high-pressure zone behind the BB, no appreciable lift is possible.

 

Here is my hypothesis: Being that a BB is ~5.96 +1/-1 in size, there is range of barrel sizes that will prove more accurate than others. This is to say, a 7.90 barrel will have accuracy issues, and a 6.00 barrel may also have accuracy problems. This would mean a range of say 6.06-6.03 is the "Sweet" spot for barrel bore.

Of course, I thought that was understood. I thought we were debating where that sweet spot lies.

 

P.S. Classic Army's "accuracy" barrel is 6.04. The reason for this is to avoid the guns jamming. I know this for a fact. It was not because 6.04 proved to be any more accurate than 6.03 or 6.05. They claim it is more accurate than their 6.08 stock barrel. Take note: They went DOWN in barrel bore size, not up.

For this, as well as the KWA example you gave, you haven't actually addressed my claim that it's not the reduction in bore width that correlates to the improved accuracy, but the quality of the barrel. Don't you think there is some marketing going on here? CA just wants you to buy a new barrel, it has nothing to do with the bore except that the 6.08 stock barrels are poorly manufactured, what else is new?

 

And again, the results of most of the real-world testing shows that within that "sweet spot" the difference between a 6.03 and a 6.05 is unnoticeable. Ultimately, if you're in that sweet-spot, it doesn't matter all that much which side of the spectrum you're on. I just go with the theory at that point, which tells me to stay at or above 6.03mm.

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Agreed, staying above 6.03 seems like common sense, but going up beyond a certain point also ruins accuracy, that is my point. To say a tighter bore does not improve accuracy is not correct. It may not, but then again it may.

 

The magnus effect by definition MUST start when the BB is still in the barrel as the hop-up/nub combination create the radial component (excuse my terminology I'm old and phsyical engineering was decades ago for me) so the effect begins and can be measure immediately regardless if the lift is appreciable the BB is still spinning on a small pocket of air and gaining lift. Unless I am mis-remembering the magnus effect it is calculated with a vector that requires a radial compenent of force in a certain direct (the nub) causing the spin. I could be off however, need to clean out the cobwebs. Enlighten me as to how you would apply magnus effect OUTSIDE of the barrel only since you the nub is actually what magnified the effect by pushing down/up onto the BB.

 

And as for marketing, I'm sure you are right. CA wants to sell parts. My point is, if they could make a more accurate barrel at 6.10 which is most likely requires less precision than 6.08 they would do it and sell the weapon as "pre-upgraded" precision barrel. or at least I would. :a-grin:

 

I assume the sweet spot is somewhere below 6.08. But I can offer no proof. Its still hypothetical.

 

 

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Agreed, staying above 6.03 seems like common sense, but going up beyond a certain point also ruins accuracy, that is my point. To say a tighter bore does not improve accuracy is not correct. It may not, but then again it may.

But it has become "common sense" on this forum to advise the tightest possible bore, some even dipping under 6.01. And again, it is a given that going too wide will also negatively impact accuracy, mainly because after ~6.10 you're letting too much air escape around the BB and compromising pneumatic efficiency in the system. That was never a point of contention. But within that range of efficiency, the effect of a progressively tighter bore will result in smaller and smaller gaps between the BB and barrel. Therefore there is less room for air to slip past and provide an ideal cushion to stabilize the BB's flight, resulting in increased bouncing off the sides of the barrel. On the other hand, retaining more air behind the BB with a tighter bore will increase muzzle velocity, but this comes at the cost of increased skipping and bouncing as it travels out the barrel (which in theory is a bad thing).

 

There may be a sort of trade-off effect occuring in this efficiency zone which could account for our inability to determine the ideal bore, or it may be that the increased bouncing that is brought on by a tighter bore is insignificant until it begins to get too tight (under 6.03 probably).

 

The magnus effect by definition MUST start when the BB is still in the barrel as the hop-up/nub combination create the radial component (excuse my terminology I'm old and phsyical engineering was decades ago for me) so the effect begins and can be measure immediately regardless if the lift is appreciable the BB is still spinning on a small pocket of air and gaining lift. Unless I am mis-remembering the magnus effect it is calculated with a vector that requires a radial compenent of force in a certain direct (the nub) causing the spin. I could be off however, need to clean out the cobwebs. Enlighten me as to how you would apply magnus effect OUTSIDE of the barrel only since you the nub is actually what magnified the effect by pushing down/up onto the BB.

Although there are a lot of complications to this question, I think we’re mostly arguing semantics at this point, so let me rephrase my explanation a bit and I’ll try to meet you halfway. Technically, you are partially correct in that there is a possibility of the formation of pressure zones due to the backspin on the BB while still inside of the barrel. However, since the BB is accelerated to a very high velocity so quickly, it actually ends up providing more stability to the BB’s travel through the barrel, for a couple of reasons. First and foremost because it provides a gyroscopic effect which discourages any lateral movement or oscillation, but also because of the nature of the pressure zones at play during the process of the shot, and the bottom line is that while the BB is in the barrel, the amount of perpendicular force that might be generated by the backspin is so miniscule that it cannot affect its flight until well after it exits the barrel.

 

First of all, it must be noted that when the BB is fired, all the air that is sitting in the barrel gets pushed out with and in front of the BB. So the BB is being pushed by the air behind it (in the same direction as its path of travel) rather than resisted by the air in front of it. This means that rather than the backspin on the BB creating an upward lift, it actually produces the opposite – a downward force! But again, due to the exceptional forces and speeds that the BB is already enduring as it’s being shot out of a barrel, the forward velocity of the BB drastically overcomes any Magnus force experienced to the point where it becomes a non-issue.

 

After the BB exits the barrel and escapes the push of the air from the gun, the Magnus force becomes inverted and begins to apply an upward force (lift) because it is now encountering air resistance in the direction opposite its path of travel. Initially, that lift is still too weak a force to actually affect the flight of the BB, but as it decelerates due to air resistance, the Magnus Effect emerges.

 

I should have been clearer before, I meant to say that the effects of the Magnus force are so meager, especially when in the barrel, that it does not affect the flight of the BB in any appreciable way until long after it exits the barrel. So to answer the original question, it is not the Magnus effect that makes it bounce along the barrel more, but a tighter bore, as explained above.

 

 

And as for marketing, I'm sure you are right. CA wants to sell parts. My point is, if they could make a more accurate barrel at 6.10 which is most likely requires less precision than 6.08 they would do it and sell the weapon as "pre-upgraded" precision barrel. or at least I would. :a-grin:

 

I assume the sweet spot is somewhere below 6.08. But I can offer no proof. Its still hypothetical.

I still say it's all due to marketing. The myth that tigher is better has been established, and the manufacturers are just riding it as far as they can. What's the appeal of replacing your stock 6.10 with another 6.10? The average joe airsofter, who has fallen prey to the myth is eager to believe that a tigher bore is the answer to all his accuracy problems, and I think that in general people want to see some sort of measurable difference in the product they are upgrading to, regardless of whether it is in fact a beneficial move or not. Just the sound of a "tight-bore barrel" makes it sound like it will "tighten" up your groupings, don't you think?

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I agree that the Magnus effect is not even noticable until the BB has travelled quite a distance however it is measurable from the second the BB is fired. The entire time, the BB is overcoming its forward inertia provided by the blast of air, however the effect is going the entire time, but you are right, it becomes more and more prevalent as the BB goes further and further. It is full effect at the point of maximum V (forward velocity in this case).

 

And I think you are right about the marketing thing. Almost across the board the upgraded barrels I have tested have improved groupings, however that can be due to a number of factors out side of the bore size (better quality, more uniform etc). Its like length of a barrel. A higher FPS setup benefits more from a longer barrel, to a point only. Once the BB is stable, the barrel provides no further effect and may actually harm FPS and or accuracy. Again it's going back to that sweet spot. Which brings up an interesting thought: The sweet spot for bore may differ between length of barrels. You want the BB to be stable but not over do it and rob yourself of velocity. I think that might be something worth looking in to, the combination of the two factors would make perfect sense, the question is how do the truely effect each other.

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So far after reading this thread. Assuming the barrel quality is the same like PDI, would their 6.01 or 6.05 yield the better groupings? From this thread I am gathering that the 6.05 would actually get better groupings if the quality of the barrel is the same.

 

Aside from that, which brand would yield the best groupings (PDI, Prommy, EDGI ect...)?

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Yes, the 6.05 would be the best choice.

 

They're all of pretty similar quality these days, I would go with the cheapest myself, but that's because I'm a tightwad :a-grin: The linked PDI 6.05 should be really nice.

 

 

Okay sorry about the questions again. What about say prommy 6.03 or a prommy 6.05 ASH? I know prommy is one of the higher end TBB out there with a great smooth bore. Which one would yield the better groupings and accuracy?

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Honestly, you probably wouldn't see much, if any difference between any of the leading brands and any of their barrels that are 6.03+

 

I've heard the prommy 6.05 ASH is teflon coated (as are the Madbulls), which means there is a possibility that the coating could flake off and turn it into an expensive piece of garbage; but that doesn't really happen quickly or under normal usage at all. Just don't polish a teflon coated barrel or clean it with anything other than a soft cloth and just a little bit of silicone oil and it will be just fine.

 

Here are a few examples of proven high quality barrels, they will all probably yeild very similar results:

 

Madbull V2 6.03

Systema 6.04

PDI 6.03 & 6.05

Prometheus 6.03 & 6.05

EdGI 6.03

 

Everyone has their favorite brands, but in the end as long as you have a good quality barrel, other factors like good compression and a well tuned hop up account for accuracy much more than the minute differences between these HQ barrels; and when it comes down to it, it's really just people playing favorites - the quality is there in all of them. Honestly I got kind of excited when I saw that PDI 6.05, if I hadn't already grabbed a G&G 6.04 for my m4 I would have gone right for it.

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Actually, they say on their website that they do use a coating with the anodizing process: http://www.madbullairsoft.com/English/inde...;products_id=58

 

Now I'm not 100% sure what that coating is, but I'm reasonably sure that it's teflon... why?

 

The anodizing process used on these barrels produces pores in the resulting aluminim oxide layer. These pores can absorb dyes (black in this case) and retain lubricants, but are also an avenue for corrosion, so they are usually sealed after dyeing to increase corrosion resistance (important, wouldn't you say?) Now, they could coat the barrels with nickel, alodine, iridite, or some other hard coat, but that wouldn't be the best choice for an airsoft barrel because besides having relatively high friction coeffeicients, those coatings are meant for electrical applications or protection from weathering, etc. Teflon, on the other hand, would be the perfect cadidate for this application because not only does it resist wear and abrasion better than any other mil spec type hard anoziding process, but because Teflon has the 2nd-lowest friction coefficient of any known substance, and is thus the perfect coating to ensure maximum lubricity.

 

The problems with flaking and chipping in the first generation of Mad Bull barrels was because they used a cheaper anodization process that resulted in a very thin oxide layer that couldn't stand up to the stresses of the airsoft application. They fixed that process by switching to type III hard anodization.

 

All that to say, the new V2 Mad Bulls are nice :a-grin:

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So basicly... any quality barrel in the sweet spot would improve accuracy and groupings? But 2 barrels within the sweet spot like .03 and .05 would not yeild much difference? Like the .05 would get slightly better groupings and the .03 would get slightly better FPS gains? Not sure the concept on the barrel sweet spot sounds kinda like semantics. But I guess 6.05 and 6.03 shouldn't make that much of a difference. I might just go for the 6.05 just to test since it seems that snipers are switching to 6.05 there must be a reason for it.

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Actually, they say on their website that they do use a coating with the anodizing process: http://www.madbullairsoft.com/English/inde...;products_id=58

 

Now I'm not 100% sure what that coating is, but I'm reasonably sure that it's teflon... why?

 

The anodizing process used on these barrels produces pores in the resulting aluminim oxide layer. These pores can absorb dyes (black in this case) and retain lubricants, but are also an avenue for corrosion, so they are usually sealed after dyeing to increase corrosion resistance (important, wouldn't you say?) Now, they could coat the barrels with nickel, alodine, iridite, or some other hard coat, but that wouldn't be the best choice for an airsoft barrel because besides having relatively high friction coeffeicients, those coatings are meant for electrical applications or protection from weathering, etc. Teflon, on the other hand, would be the perfect cadidate for this application because not only does it resist wear and abrasion better than any other mil spec type hard anoziding process, but because Teflon has the 2nd-lowest friction coefficient of any known substance, and is thus the perfect coating to ensure maximum lubricity.

 

The problems with flaking and chipping in the first generation of Mad Bull barrels was because they used a cheaper anodization process that resulted in a very thin oxide layer that couldn't stand up to the stresses of the airsoft application. They fixed that process by switching to type III hard anodization.

 

All that to say, the new V2 Mad Bulls are nice :a-grin:

 

ha ha you obviously put more thought into this than I did lol.

 

Whatever they use, it's holding up fine for me and it shoots great.

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