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Tux

Rethinking The Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process

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The New Deal


Guys, I have been into airsoft sniping for several years now. I've been through a handful of personal rifles and have worked on a dozen or so others. I started with a UTG M324, moved on to a BAR-10, then a BAR-10 G-SPEC, UTG MK96, and now I'm resting on my ASR. When I first started, airsoft spring sniper rifles were not much more of an advantage on the field than the typical AEG. If you did want an advantage and you did hapopen to buy an airsoft spring sniper rifle, then you were expected to drop at least $500 into it to get it performing to a point where it was above AEG standards.

Throughout all of my experience as an airsoft "sniper", I have been researching, experimenting, observing, and compiling. Recently I've been thinking about how things were when I first started and where we are now and to me, honestly, there are a LOT of new innovations out there. These innovations have made such a great impact on spring sniper rifles that I feel the common verbatim, when it comes to recommending upgrades, needs to be influenced for change. I'm going to just go over some things in this topic, post the new ideas, and conclude with what I think the best way to go about building a new rifle SHOULD be now that times have changed.

First off, let me say that one of the biggest challenges in the airsoft sniping world has been finding quality, heavy, ammo. In the past, if you wanted to grab something heavier than a .30g you would have to scour the internet to find some SIIS or Digicon BBs. Even so, you would have to put the Digicons through an extensive washing process if you wanted accuracy that was competitive with high-end AEGs.

Fortunately for us airsoft snipers, Goldenball, BB King, Vanaras, Madbull (and its OEM through WE Tech etc.), Bioval all came out with heavyweight sniper lines of BBs in the past year and a half. Bioval released their BBBMAX which both scared the airsoft community with their hardness and provided a high quality alternative to the high-end standard set by Maruzen Super Grand Master BBs. As a whole, these brands revolutionized the sniper's affective range and helped greatly with the accuracy issues posed by lack of energy retention in our ammo. To take things even more to an extreme level, we have BB B<AT>stard who came out with their high precision/quality competition grade Pearl and Nite BBs in heavyweight .66 and .36g. Lastly I'd like to mention that we have had the .80g metal BBs out for quite some time. However, these are unideal in terms of skirmish ability against human targets and preservation of your internals. So there we have our first revolutionary change in the airsoft sniper scene -- BBs/ammo.

Then we have the fabricators and the researchers. There have been some great entrepreneurs in the field of sniper rifle crafting that have helped improve the role as well. An explosion in affordable super tight bore barrels have arisen in the past year or so has occurred. From my point of view this all started with a man named Dwayne Dees who founded the all too familiar company DBCustom. Dwayne was the first from what I have seen to make an affordable brass 6.01mm tightbore barrel. Before DBCustom, the only sub 6.03mm barrels available were the PDI 6.01s and the rare Deepfire 6.02mm. After Dwayne's diminish, we had EdGI appear out of the Phillipines. Ed's barrels were superb and of extra high quality superseding that of DBCustom. EdGI barrels sported a mirrored finish, crowned barrels, etc. EdGI soon started selling in the USA through a distributor named Ben Noji who is also an entrepreneur. Ben started stocking up on sniper rifle inner bull barrels and all sorts of varieties of other non-VSR barrels from ACM clone rifles to AEGs. In addition to the tightbore barrels, Ed manufactured and sold VSR/ACM clone internal upgrade kits exclusively in the Phillipines. To this day Ed is still the only resource for upgrade kits for notoriously unupgradable guns such as the MP001. Strike two for new innovation.

Some time after being a distributor for EdGI, Ben Noji created and founded PolarStar Airsoft. PolarStar started making custom internals such as barrel spacers, cylinder heads, pistons, spring guides, etc for Type 96 and VSR guns/clones. I believe that because of the entrepreneurship of these aforementioned individuals, we now have an abundance of internal aftermarket parts in today's market. 6.01mm tightbores are cheaper than ever and are more common than ever before. AirsoftGI now has an OEM company to manufacture tightbores / sniper rifle internals that they rebrand.... opening up the options even MORE. Evike and other retailers have followed similar patterns with their ever growing Matrix branding. These options would have been unheard of 2 or three years ago. I remember having to search on over seas sites such as x-fire, WGC, and UNCompany to find the internal parts that are now seen in AirsoftGI, Airsoft Atlanta, and Evike USA stores.

Next we have Shredder who invented the Concave Spacer nub for improved accuracy. We all know about the SCS and its improvements to the hop-up system so I am not going to go too much into detail. For the record though, the SCS is now manufactured and managed by PolarStar airsoft (who I will get into later).

Finally, there are people like Noobie who have custom fabricated their own parts. If you check out ASR you will see that there are a handful of individuals making their own hop-up arms. Noobie has released products such as the ingenious TDC kit, m-trigger, and the TF bucking system. He also outlined and provided corrections for the common VSR hop-up flaws such as air blowby, importance of cylinder volume to barrel volume equality, lack of reinforcement of hop-up arm, and provided an ongoing project for the community on better improving the VSR platform overall. You then have the tweakers, reviewers, high-end consumers (when I say high-end I mean highly technical/involved in the community) and compilers such as myself, The Crimson Falcon (teflon mod extraordinaire), ZER0 Wolf (diy MK96 master), snipershot, SVT Cobra, Chris R, etc. All of these individuals, and more (I am sorry if I missed you), are all part of the massive explosion of contributions to the spring sniping community. Strike 3.

Anyway I guess overall what I am trying to say is that airsoft sniping has drastically developed and sprung into a much more feasible role than it ever was in the past. In the past, it took hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, lots of tweaking, rare ammo, etc. to get a 300' range ready spring rifle. In the past, the availability of parts was limited to a few high quality (expensive) manufacturers. In the past, we had little to no insight/research into airsoft mechanics. Today through the innovations / innovators listed above, the 300 foot shot is an ever growing easily achievable goal (from both a mechanical and economical standpoint). With all this being said, and after ready this extremely long post, I think we can standardize this modified way of thinking in terms of building an airsoft spring sniper rifle:

1. The rifle as a whole is a complex system of checks and balances

- Range and accuracy depend on the proper ideal combination of the aspects to achieve muzzle power and hop-up.

- Muzzle power depends on spring strength, cylinder/trigger internal durability, cylinder air seal, hop-up air seal, cylinder to barrel volume matching, BB weight, BB weight to energy ratio, BB weight consistency, BB diameter, BB diameter consistency, pressure generated by applied hop-up, and barrel inner diameter.

- Hop-up effectiveness depends on bucking seal, bucking mound type, adjustment sensitivity, adjusting stability (ability to keep hop-up setting the same without wobble/movement when gun is fired/moved), protrusion type (SCS, flat, H-nub, etc), protrusion depth (aka amount of hop-up turned on), barrel stability (vibration reduction through barrel spacers / bull barrels), and maybe even hop-up bucking material.

- Additional modifications such as barrel porting, barrel crowning, cylinder head beveling, and barrel mirror finish also need to be taken into consideration.


2. When recommending upgrade parts the sniper rifle system as a whole therefore must be considered.

From the above list of dependencies it is not ideal to recommend one set of upgrades without considering the affect it will have on another set of dependencies on a rifle. For example, recommending a person to upgrade their tight bore barrel to use a certain BB with a certain diameter, weight, and tolerance factor would not be wise without considering power, hop-up factors, etc.


3. As I have pointed out in this topic, the spring sniper rifle is ever evolving in terms of upgrade options. These options also deal greatly in the knowledge of the science/mechanics behind the rifle as well. As we discover/learn more as a community, the more things will change as far as what is the "best" standard. So with that being said, it is good to be open minded to new ideas and recommendations as to what is "best".


In conclusion, I think the main point I am trying to make is that we shouldn't go around anymore recommending the standard "get this or this part" recommendations. In the past, (when I say past, I mean past 5 or so years) we have just had slap-and-work methods based on generalized best experience with parts, and a limited parts availability too. Instead of this method of upgrading, I solemnly believe we should start diving into learning the science behind the above outlined variables in the spring sniper rifle system in question and then applying that science to what fits one's expectations out of their specialized build.



I welcome people to think about what I have brought up, add to my thoughts, argue my thoughts (if I have some flaws), and just discuss! It's time for a revolution. It's time for a change. It's time to show the community what the real potential of spring sniper rifles really is!

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Enlightening read ( I did read the whole thing). These affordable parts will not only make it easier to get a great rifle, it will open up this path to the less "financially fortunate" airsoft snipers out there. As in the thread I made around here, I can finally afford upgrade parts for my gun and as a result will play more often as a sniper. I also would like to mention the huge database of DIY upgrades and mods compiled on forums by people like you. Now, with or without upgrades, you can improve the functionality of your weapon with nothing but some tools and some elbow grease thanks to people who first tried it and people who posted up how to do it. As time progresses, I believe airsoft snipers will be more useful on the battlefield due to the influx of affordable upgrades and the collective knowledge of the community.

 

Cheers

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a very wonderful read. its been a while since Ive read an article as unbiased and as informative as this one. great job as always Tux.

 

I totally agree when you said that we should be open-minded when it comes to upgrades and should ALWAYS take into consideration other factors that may/will affect the rifle before recommending an upgrade part(s) to others. especially those people who are just starting on the role. it really ticks me off when someone would immediately say "get this" or "get that" just because the brand is popular or just because their friend told them so or they heard it from someone else.

 

correct me if im wrong but I really think that existing and aspiring airsoft snipers should learn, understand and improve the science of airsoft sniping. just like the guys listed above, they bravely took the risk and dedicated their (free) time in making the best out of their rifle. I think it should also be noted that airsoft sniping is not for the faint at heart for when you take up the role, you should be ready and willing to disassemble and assemble your rifle numerous times just to tweak, calibrate and optimize it. we should have the passion to make our rifles perform as best it can no matter what the condition is.

 

this is the new age of airsoft sniping. we are our rifles...

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I do agree that upgrading has become a lot easier than before. but the fundamental problem still remains. We cant out range an aeg by a considerable margin. back then, it took hundreds of dollars to make a 300 foot capable rifle. now it still takes a couple of hundred dollars to make a 300 foot capable rifle. Highly upgraded sniper rifle, 300 feet. Highly upgraded AEG, 250 feet. AEG fully automatic, sniper rifle, single shot. You see where im going here? No matter what parts we use, how well they are made and what combo they are used in, they are still subjected by the same limitation. a 6mm spherical round will never go past 300 feet and be consistent. We need to solve that problem. We need to have 400 feet capable rifles. thats the only way we will be placed at an advantage over AEG's. The only way this can be done, at least in my imagination, is scrapping the hop up, and in that place, we need rifled barrels/finned BB's, which ever method is more efficient. If we choose the rifled barrel path, one must first buy a rifled barrel, which, depending on length, would be between 60-100 dollars. My TK twist barrel for my m4 was 60 dollars. We of course, would need standard rifling, unlike the reverse rifling on the TK. But we also need specialized ammo, ammo thats shaped like a real bullet. They would be expensive, but not as expensive as making a Finned bullet. a finned bullet would basically consist of a bb, that has fins, and a modified hop up chamber. Now the major problems is that without the advantages of hop up, our range would decrease dramatically. and we cannot use traditional loading methods we see in a magazine. so, the solution would be either (1) shells or (2) elongated magazine holes (the place where spring pushes up on the BB... don't kno what its called) to fit the longer bullet. To solve the range problem, we must amp up the standard sniping FPS (500-600) to over 700 FPS. to make sure no one gets hurt, the MED should be increased to 200 feet. then the bullet still must be lobbed to hit the target. If we can lob consistently, and over come as much air resistance as possible, a 400 or even 500 foot shot would no longer be out of reach.

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The New Deal

 

Guys, I have been into airsoft sniping for several years now. I've been through a handful of personal rifles and have worked on a dozen or so others. I started with a UTG M324, moved on to a BAR-10, then a BAR-10 G-SPEC, UTG MK96, and now I'm resting on my ASR. When I first started, airsoft spring sniper rifles were not much more of an advantage on the field than the typical AEG. If you did want an advantage and you did hapopen to buy an airsoft spring sniper rifle, then you were expected to drop at least $500 into it to get it performing to a point where it was above AEG standards.

 

Throughout all of my experience as an airsoft "sniper", I have been researching, experimenting, observing, and compiling. Recently I've been thinking about how things were when I first started and where we are now and to me, honestly, there are a LOT of new innovations out there. These innovations have made such a great impact on spring sniper rifles that I feel the common verbatim, when it comes to recommending upgrades, needs to be influenced for change. I'm going to just go over some things in this topic, post the new ideas, and conclude with what I think the best way to go about building a new rifle SHOULD be now that times have changed.

 

First off, let me say that one of the biggest challenges in the airsoft sniping world has been finding quality, heavy, ammo. In the past, if you wanted to grab something heavier than a .30g you would have to scour the internet to find some SIIS or Digicon BBs. Even so, you would have to put the Digicons through an extensive washing process if you wanted accuracy that was competitive with high-end AEGs.

 

Fortunately for us airsoft snipers, Goldenball, BB King, Vanaras, Madbull (and its OEM through WE Tech etc.), Bioval all came out with heavyweight sniper lines of BBs in the past year and a half. Bioval released their BBBMAX which both scared the airsoft community with their hardness and provided a high quality alternative to the high-end standard set by Maruzen Super Grand Master BBs. As a whole, these brands revolutionized the sniper's affective range and helped greatly with the accuracy issues posed by lack of energy retention in our ammo. To take things even more to an extreme level, we have BB B<AT>stard who came out with their high precision/quality competition grade Pearl and Nite BBs in heavyweight .66 and .36g. Lastly I'd like to mention that we have had the .80g metal BBs out for quite some time. However, these are unideal in terms of skirmish ability against human targets and preservation of your internals. So there we have our first revolutionary change in the airsoft sniper scene -- BBs/ammo.

 

Then we have the fabricators and the researchers. There have been some great entrepreneurs in the field of sniper rifle crafting that have helped improve the role as well. An explosion in affordable super tight bore barrels have arisen in the past year or so has occurred. From my point of view this all started with a man named Dwayne Dees who founded the all too familiar company DBCustom. Dwayne was the first from what I have seen to make an affordable brass 6.01mm tightbore barrel. Before DBCustom, the only sub 6.03mm barrels available were the PDI 6.01s and the rare Deepfire 6.02mm. After Dwayne's diminish, we had EdGI appear out of the Phillipines. Ed's barrels were superb and of extra high quality superseding that of DBCustom. EdGI barrels sported a mirrored finish, crowned barrels, etc. EdGI soon started selling in the USA through a distributor named Ben Noji who is also an entrepreneur. Ben started stocking up on sniper rifle inner bull barrels and all sorts of varieties of other non-VSR barrels from ACM clone rifles to AEGs. In addition to the tightbore barrels, Ed manufactured and sold VSR/ACM clone internal upgrade kits exclusively in the Phillipines. To this day Ed is still the only resource for upgrade kits for notoriously unupgradable guns such as the MP001. Strike two for new innovation.

 

Some time after being a distributor for EdGI, Ben Noji created and founded PolarStar Airsoft. PolarStar started making custom internals such as barrel spacers, cylinder heads, pistons, spring guides, etc for Type 96 and VSR guns/clones. I believe that because of the entrepreneurship of these aforementioned individuals, we now have an abundance of internal aftermarket parts in today's market. 6.01mm tightbores are cheaper than ever and are more common than ever before. AirsoftGI now has an OEM company to manufacture tightbores / sniper rifle internals that they rebrand.... opening up the options even MORE. Evike and other retailers have followed similar patterns with their ever growing Matrix branding. These options would have been unheard of 2 or three years ago. I remember having to search on over seas sites such as x-fire, WGC, and UNCompany to find the internal parts that are now seen in AirsoftGI, Airsoft Atlanta, and Evike USA stores.

 

Next we have Shredder who invented the Concave Spacer nub for improved accuracy. We all know about the SCS and its improvements to the hop-up system so I am not going to go too much into detail. For the record though, the SCS is now manufactured and managed by PolarStar airsoft (who I will get into later).

 

Finally, there are people like Noobie who have custom fabricated their own parts. If you check out ASR you will see that there are a handful of individuals making their own hop-up arms. Noobie has released products such as the ingenious TDC kit, m-trigger, and the TF bucking system. He also outlined and provided corrections for the common VSR hop-up flaws such as air blowby, importance of cylinder volume to barrel volume equality, lack of reinforcement of hop-up arm, and provided an ongoing project for the community on better improving the VSR platform overall. You then have the tweakers, reviewers, high-end consumers (when I say high-end I mean highly technical/involved in the community) and compilers such as myself, The Crimson Falcon (teflon mod extraordinaire), ZER0 Wolf (diy MK96 master), snipershot, SVT Cobra, Chris R, etc. All of these individuals, and more (I am sorry if I missed you), are all part of the massive explosion of contributions to the spring sniping community. Strike 3.

 

Anyway I guess overall what I am trying to say is that airsoft sniping has drastically developed and sprung into a much more feasible role than it ever was in the past. In the past, it took hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, lots of tweaking, rare ammo, etc. to get a 300' range ready spring rifle. In the past, the availability of parts was limited to a few high quality (expensive) manufacturers. In the past, we had little to no insight/research into airsoft mechanics. Today through the innovations / innovators listed above, the 300 foot shot is an ever growing easily achievable goal (from both a mechanical and economical standpoint). With all this being said, and after ready this extremely long post, I think we can standardize this modified way of thinking in terms of building an airsoft spring sniper rifle:

 

1. The rifle as a whole is a complex system of checks and balances

- Range and accuracy depend on the proper ideal combination of the aspects to achieve muzzle power and hop-up.

- Muzzle power depends on spring strength, cylinder/trigger internal durability, cylinder air seal, hop-up air seal, cylinder to barrel volume matching, BB weight, BB weight to energy ratio, BB weight consistency, BB diameter, BB diameter consistency, pressure generated by applied hop-up, and barrel inner diameter.

- Hop-up effectiveness depends on bucking seal, bucking mound type, adjustment sensitivity, adjusting stability (ability to keep hop-up setting the same without wobble/movement when gun is fired/moved), protrusion type (SCS, flat, H-nub, etc), protrusion depth (aka amount of hop-up turned on), barrel stability (vibration reduction through barrel spacers / bull barrels), and maybe even hop-up bucking material.

- Additional modifications such as barrel porting, barrel crowning, cylinder head beveling, and barrel mirror finish also need to be taken into consideration.

2. When recommending upgrade parts the sniper rifle system as a whole therefore must be considered.

From the above list of dependencies it is not ideal to recommend one set of upgrades without considering the affect it will have on another set of dependencies on a rifle. For example, recommending a person to upgrade their tight bore barrel to use a certain BB with a certain diameter, weight, and tolerance factor would not be wise without considering power, hop-up factors, etc.

3. As I have pointed out in this topic, the spring sniper rifle is ever evolving in terms of upgrade options. These options also deal greatly in the knowledge of the science/mechanics behind the rifle as well. As we discover/learn more as a community, the more things will change as far as what is the "best" standard. So with that being said, it is good to be open minded to new ideas and recommendations as to what is "best".

 

 

In conclusion, I think the main point I am trying to make is that we shouldn't go around anymore recommending the standard "get this or this part" recommendations. In the past, (when I say past, I mean past 5 or so years) we have just had slap-and-work methods based on generalized best experience with parts, and a limited parts availability too. Instead of this method of upgrading, I solemnly believe we should start diving into learning the science behind the above outlined variables in the spring sniper rifle system in question and then applying that science to what fits one's expectations out of their specialized build.

 

 

 

I welcome people to think about what I have brought up, add to my thoughts, argue my thoughts (if I have some flaws), and just discuss! It's time for a revolution. It's time for a change. It's time to show the community what the real potential of spring sniper rifles really is!

wow, I never thought I could read all that! Very interesting though. Sniping is a game of patience, skill and a very controlable bladder"if you know what I mean." A sniper rifle costs far less than an AEG with the same fps, range and accuracy. I requires much more skill since you usually only have one or two shots, depending on the type of sniper rifle. Thank you for the interesting post!

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&lt;AT&gt;sniperx2s

our game style is what sets us apart from AEG users. we rely on stealth. they rely on firepower. we make every shot count. they spray and pray. as long as your unseen, not even a 500ft capable AEG can take you out.

 

the biggest mistake an airsoft sniper does on the battlefield is take out AEG user(s) alone. that is where the disadvantage of using a BASR is very evident. that is where a 300ft capable sniper rifle is eaten alive by a 250ft capable AEG. we should not forget that we are primarily needed to do recon and provide intel to our team. when the battle starts we provide supporting fire from behind. we don't position ourselves in the frontlines. we stay back.

 

the real airsoft battlefield is not like what we see in the movies or read in books. it is rare that we take shots on a target 300ft away even if our rifles are capable of doing such. why? because we should be careful. we should be careful not to compromise our position or our mission when we take a shot. most airsoft snipers don't realize this. just because you can shoot someone doesnt mean you should. if one cannot contain the itch of pulling that trigger everytime an opportunity presents itself, he/she is not fit to be an airsoft sniper.

 

I know that the day will come when there will be 400-500ft capable BASRs, especially with the ideas you provided as well as the technology that will be available for us in the near future, but our rifle is just one of the tools we can use in the battlefield. we should also give importance to the real essence of a sniper; stealth, camouflage and fieldcraft.

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The science is important, there is no doubt about that. Understanding the physics behind this stuff is really important, because in reality, the odds are so stacked against the sniper that it's just not even fair. Getting that BB to fly fast, true, far, and most importantly, SAFE, is just so difficult. You can't increase the velocity and weight so much, because if you do, you'll have broken teeth, and penetration to soft tissue, which is something that no one wants.

 

Assaulters have it easy with their equipment. Their troubles come from other issues like reflexes, retention of fine and coarse motor skills, situational awareness, and so on. But their pretty much good to go with the guns.

 

Us on the other hand, it is so hard to maintain a significant range and accuracy advantage over the run-and-gunners with their high volume of fire.

 

I've done the research, and it's sad, but if you ask me, I'd say give up on range. You just can't have a safe airsoft gun that can reach out much past 300'. However, if we really work on accuracy, really just push the issue, and come up with a tack driver, an airsoft gun that can just shoot tiny tiny groups, all day long, with no problem, then your effective range will double. Sure, it'll still be within 300', but you'll be able to hit anyone within that distance.

 

How many times have you been on the field, and you've seen a guy half exposed, and you didn't take the shot because you knew you couldn't hit him. He was in your 300' envelope, but you knew that it just wouldn't happen. Despite the fact that you could put your crosshair on his chest or whatever, it just wasn't possible, because your gun wasn't accurate enough.

 

What if you could shoot one inch groups at 200'? We all play that stupid game with our guns, where we know that the BB isn't going to hit on the point where those two lines in the scope cross. It's going to hit in an area, somewhere maybe close to where you're aiming, so you guess up or down, left or right. Even though you've used your field craft to get yourself into a position to make that hit, well within 200' or 300', it's just not a sure thing.

 

But what if it was? What if you didn't have to put up with that crap? What if you could get within 200', see a guy, sight him, and make the hit, no problem? Oh would that be the day.

 

It's all about accuracy, and it's possible. Making that accurate gun will just be mechanical engineering.

 

 

Obviously the biggest thing is the ammo. It has to be the RIGHT weight. What that weight is, I don't know. But it's all a balancing act. Yeah, the .88g steel BB will obviously be the most accurate, but it's not safe. .43g might not be safe either. We need to do the research and crunch the numbers to find what weight (and what size) bb will be the best balance between performance and safety.

 

And accuracy isn't the only thing you need to worry about:

 

-How much time the BB takes to get to the target, at various ranges

-How much the BB is affected by the environment

-How much energy the BB is hitting with at various ranges

-MED's

 

See it doesn't matter if it's accurate if it takes so long to get there that the target can move in time to dodge it, or if the wind will blow it away. It's a balancing act.

 

So the first thing to get right is the projectile. Figure out the right size, and the right weight that will get you the most performance, while remaining safe at a reasonable MED, that will get there reasonably fast enough, and will be resilient against the environment to a reasonable degree.

 

And making it is a whole new issue. The BB can't be to hard. It has to be soft enough that it will be safe, but it has to me hard enough to maintain dimensional accuracy throughout the loading process. Figuring out the right material will NOT be easy.

 

The projectile is the hardest part, by far.

 

The gun, however will be easier.

Again, it's a give and take balancing act. If you look at the way an airsoft gun is constructed in comparison to a real gun, you will see that airsoft guns really are made cheaply, and are quite flimsy.

 

When you combine the shear number of parts, the two part barrel (inner and outer), the complex hop up, the bad tolerances, and extreme lack of forethought that goes into an airsoft gun, it's no wonder it can't shoot groups. If you look at say, the TM VSR-10 from an engineering standpoint, from a gunsmith's standpoint, you will see that it's crap. Of course, it's a $200 gun, so it's affordable, but then you have guys that will build it up to a $1000 or even $2000 gun. But guess what, it's still a TM-VSR design. If you were to take that lump sum up front, you could build a gun that would have/be:

 

-One piece solid steel barrel, precision gun drilled, reamed, lapped and finished TIR as low as possible

-One piece steel reciever TIR as low as possible

-Integrated, and SIMPLE hop up unit

-Solid bolt

-Solid trigger

-Bedded into a good stock

 

That would be a heavy, expensive gun. About 15lbs, and $1,000 - $2,000, but guess what, it would be accurate, and durable as hell. It would be the ideal platform to shoot those perfect BB's. Not some flimsy airsoft gun. This gun would basically be made to or above the quality of a real gun. And a lot of guys will diss that.

 

"Why pay that much for an airsoft gun? That's more than a real gun!"

 

And to that, I say: so?

 

So what if it is? It's better to go that way than to buy three or four sub-par guns. I've gone through and I've done the math, to see how much I've spent on airsoft. It's a lot. Upwards of $5000. Mind you, that's over almost 7 years now. I'd rather have spent that on one good gun that 10 bad guns.

 

Now I want to clarify that I respect your guy's gear, okay? I'm not trying to piss anyone off hear, I'm just speaking my mind. A lot of you guys are passionate about your stuff, because you built it up, and I respect that, but it's all built on a bad platform, sorry.

 

It all comes down to money though. No one wants to spend that much, it's just not in the books.

 

Thanks for reading,

Chris R

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^^^ Now that's some good input.

 

I don't think Chris R meant it this way, or maybe he did, but I just want to clarify that I don't think we should give up all hope on the VSR design. I say this mainly because it has a large standardization in the market as far as the hop-up design goes as well as the cylinder parts.

 

I do agree though that another design -- based on the goal of accuracy is in order. I have been a long time supporter of a fixed hop-up based on attributes to the custom rifle build but right now that just isn't an option.

 

 

Alas, the scene is evolving but not to the point Chris R has pointed out as essential. Not yet...

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As far as out ranging aegs goes, it seems like most parts that are used in sniper rifles can also be used in aegs; thus the upgraded sniper rifle will never out range an upgraded aeg by much. Just my opinion and I'm still pretty new to the game so hopefully I'm wrong.

Edited by Airsim14

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Tux,

 

Change is very hard to generate. Keeping it real, you need money, which is something that I know that I, and many others don't have. I would be one of the first to step up with a design, and try to make it happen with the machine shops, to get a product, but the fact of the matter is, even if I was able to produce "the accurate gun", they would be expensive, out of the range of all but the most serious airsofters, and I don't think I would break even. And for someone who is in school, and is trying to make rent, that's scary.

 

Just look at Righthook Fabrication. How many guns did they sell? Probably not many. I've only seen two other guys on youtube making videos about them. And they completely cut out their reaper line. Which tells me that business was not good, and that either the product wasn't good enough, or there simply isn't a big enough market for a $1500 airsoft gun up front. I don't know.

 

As for the TM VSR design, I'm split. I think that the one thing good about it is the cylinder, which, fortunately is the area of the gun that is most supported by the aftermarket.

 

However, I must respectfully disagree with you on the matter of the hop up unit. It's just too complicated to be consistent. I do, however agree with you about fixed hop ups. Unfortunately, most people want an adjustable unit. The thing is, an adjustable unit doesn't need to sacrifice repeatability to function.

 

 

I feel as if I have taken your thread in a way that you didn't intend, and for that I apologize. You were addressing the community rather than the actual mechanics of the equipment, right?

 

PM me tux, I've got some ideas, maybe we can work together on some of this stuff, if you're interested

 

Chris R

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No negativity intended and none taken from you. I feel this topic is dead on and not going anywhere unneeded. I think this forum/the community needs some motivation and enlightening every now and then.

 

I'm at work right now but PM inbound later...

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&lt;AT&gt;sniperx2s

our game style is what sets us apart from AEG users. we rely on stealth. they rely on firepower. we make every shot count. they spray and pray. as long as your unseen, not even a 500ft capable AEG can take you out.

 

the biggest mistake an airsoft sniper does on the battlefield is take out AEG user(s) alone. that is where the disadvantage of using a BASR is very evident. that is where a 300ft capable sniper rifle is eaten alive by a 250ft capable AEG. we should not forget that we are primarily needed to do recon and provide intel to our team. when the battle starts we provide supporting fire from behind. we don't position ourselves in the frontlines. we stay back.

 

the real airsoft battlefield is not like what we see in the movies or read in books. it is rare that we take shots on a target 300ft away even if our rifles are capable of doing such. why? because we should be careful. we should be careful not to compromise our position or our mission when we take a shot. most airsoft snipers don't realize this. just because you can shoot someone doesnt mean you should. if one cannot contain the itch of pulling that trigger everytime an opportunity presents itself, he/she is not fit to be an airsoft sniper.

 

I know that the day will come when there will be 400-500ft capable BASRs, especially with the ideas you provided as well as the technology that will be available for us in the near future, but our rifle is just one of the tools we can use in the battlefield. we should also give importance to the real essence of a sniper; stealth, camouflage and fieldcraft.

very well said. while everything you said is true, we are still at a major disadvantage. what you have stated as being the real essence of the sniper: stealth camouflage and fieldcraft is true, its honestly not that hard to do to an AEG. if you put some sound absorbing foam around the motor and gears, and couple that with a silent piston head and cylinder head, you can just easily achieve the stealth with an AEG. so, if a man armed himself with an aeg, achieve the same stealth and camo, and field craft skills, arent we still pretty much a disadvantage? the thing is, everyone can do that. the only real thing where we will be at an advantage would be to make a 400-500 feet capable sniper rifle. just my idea.

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I feel as if I have taken your thread in a way that you didn't intend, and for that I apologize. You were addressing the community rather than the actual mechanics of the equipment, right?

 

PM me tux, I've got some ideas, maybe we can work together on some of this stuff, if you're interested

 

Chris R

 

It has been quite interesting reading this, please don't take it to a pm.

 

I think Chris had it where we need the guns to be more consistent at the 300' mark rather than just extending the range of the guns. What's the point of getting out to 500' if you can't hit your target every shot at 300'?

 

In NCAO, they say you can only wear a ghillie suit if you are using a sniper system, either semi auto or bolt action. This limits people from justing putting on a ghillie, lying down, then unloading a bunch of shots during an ambush or something.

 

EDIT:

Do you guys think buckings are okay? I was thinking that the "nub" could be moved into the barrel so that when the bb passes under the "nub", it's in the EXACT same position because it is part of the barrel. As in a mound in the brass or SS in the barrel. This does seem pretty impractical, especially in the development stages because lots of barrels could be wasted finding the right depth. Just exploring fixed hop-up. But, without a bucking the problem of airseal comes in. I guess the bucking could stay for the sole purpose of sealing the cylinder head to the barrel.

Edited by suprafish

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The science is important, there is no doubt about that. Understanding the physics behind this stuff is really important, because in reality, the odds are so stacked against the sniper that it's just not even fair. Getting that BB to fly fast, true, far, and most importantly, SAFE, is just so difficult. You can't increase the velocity and weight so much, because if you do, you'll have broken teeth, and penetration to soft tissue, which is something that no one wants.

 

Assaulters have it easy with their equipment. Their troubles come from other issues like reflexes, retention of fine and coarse motor skills, situational awareness, and so on. But their pretty much good to go with the guns.

 

Us on the other hand, it is so hard to maintain a significant range and accuracy advantage over the run-and-gunners with their high volume of fire.

 

I've done the research, and it's sad, but if you ask me, I'd say give up on range. You just can't have a safe airsoft gun that can reach out much past 300'. However, if we really work on accuracy, really just push the issue, and come up with a tack driver, an airsoft gun that can just shoot tiny tiny groups, all day long, with no problem, then your effective range will double. Sure, it'll still be within 300', but you'll be able to hit anyone within that distance.

 

How many times have you been on the field, and you've seen a guy half exposed, and you didn't take the shot because you knew you couldn't hit him. He was in your 300' envelope, but you knew that it just wouldn't happen. Despite the fact that you could put your crosshair on his chest or whatever, it just wasn't possible, because your gun wasn't accurate enough.

 

What if you could shoot one inch groups at 200'? We all play that stupid game with our guns, where we know that the BB isn't going to hit on the point where those two lines in the scope cross. It's going to hit in an area, somewhere maybe close to where you're aiming, so you guess up or down, left or right. Even though you've used your field craft to get yourself into a position to make that hit, well within 200' or 300', it's just not a sure thing.

 

But what if it was? What if you didn't have to put up with that crap? What if you could get within 200', see a guy, sight him, and make the hit, no problem? Oh would that be the day.

 

It's all about accuracy, and it's possible. Making that accurate gun will just be mechanical engineering.

 

 

Obviously the biggest thing is the ammo. It has to be the RIGHT weight. What that weight is, I don't know. But it's all a balancing act. Yeah, the .88g steel BB will obviously be the most accurate, but it's not safe. .43g might not be safe either. We need to do the research and crunch the numbers to find what weight (and what size) bb will be the best balance between performance and safety.

 

And accuracy isn't the only thing you need to worry about:

 

-How much time the BB takes to get to the target, at various ranges

-How much the BB is affected by the environment

-How much energy the BB is hitting with at various ranges

-MED's

 

See it doesn't matter if it's accurate if it takes so long to get there that the target can move in time to dodge it, or if the wind will blow it away. It's a balancing act.

 

So the first thing to get right is the projectile. Figure out the right size, and the right weight that will get you the most performance, while remaining safe at a reasonable MED, that will get there reasonably fast enough, and will be resilient against the environment to a reasonable degree.

 

And making it is a whole new issue. The BB can't be to hard. It has to be soft enough that it will be safe, but it has to me hard enough to maintain dimensional accuracy throughout the loading process. Figuring out the right material will NOT be easy.

 

The projectile is the hardest part, by far.

 

The gun, however will be easier.

Again, it's a give and take balancing act. If you look at the way an airsoft gun is constructed in comparison to a real gun, you will see that airsoft guns really are made cheaply, and are quite flimsy.

 

When you combine the shear number of parts, the two part barrel (inner and outer), the complex hop up, the bad tolerances, and extreme lack of forethought that goes into an airsoft gun, it's no wonder it can't shoot groups. If you look at say, the TM VSR-10 from an engineering standpoint, from a gunsmith's standpoint, you will see that it's crap. Of course, it's a $200 gun, so it's affordable, but then you have guys that will build it up to a $1000 or even $2000 gun. But guess what, it's still a TM-VSR design. If you were to take that lump sum up front, you could build a gun that would have/be:

 

-One piece solid steel barrel, precision gun drilled, reamed, lapped and finished TIR as low as possible

-One piece steel reciever TIR as low as possible

-Integrated, and SIMPLE hop up unit

-Solid bolt

-Solid trigger

-Bedded into a good stock

 

That would be a heavy, expensive gun. About 15lbs, and $1,000 - $2,000, but guess what, it would be accurate, and durable as hell. It would be the ideal platform to shoot those perfect BB's. Not some flimsy airsoft gun. This gun would basically be made to or above the quality of a real gun. And a lot of guys will diss that.

 

"Why pay that much for an airsoft gun? That's more than a real gun!"

 

And to that, I say: so?

 

So what if it is? It's better to go that way than to buy three or four sub-par guns. I've gone through and I've done the math, to see how much I've spent on airsoft. It's a lot. Upwards of $5000. Mind you, that's over almost 7 years now. I'd rather have spent that on one good gun that 10 bad guns.

 

Now I want to clarify that I respect your guy's gear, okay? I'm not trying to piss anyone off hear, I'm just speaking my mind. A lot of you guys are passionate about your stuff, because you built it up, and I respect that, but it's all built on a bad platform, sorry.

 

It all comes down to money though. No one wants to spend that much, it's just not in the books.

 

Thanks for reading,

Chris R

im beginning to see things your way.

 

the best way, in my opinion (please state your opinion if you disagree) would be to minimize the amount of parts that can be taken apart AND to limit uprading. Look at the vsr-10 for example. nearly every single part can be disassembled, and taken out of the gun with minimal access to tools. and nearly everything you can upgrade. now take a look at the m24SWS. its basically a military version of the remington 700. however, the military did very few upgrades to it. and look at it, its a very accurate rifle. the more parts we can make out of one solid material, rather than a bunch of materials attached via screws, the more tolerance a gun will have. I still firmly believe in scrapping the hop up and BBs in place of rifled barrels and bullet shaped projectile. range will decrease, yes I kno, but I would rather have to lob a bullet out to 200 feet accurately, than having to fire a flatter trajectory, but with less accuracy.

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im beginning to see things your way.

 

the best way, in my opinion (please state your opinion if you disagree) would be to minimize the amount of parts that can be taken apart AND to limit uprading. Look at the vsr-10 for example. nearly every single part can be disassembled, and taken out of the gun with minimal access to tools. and nearly everything you can upgrade. now take a look at the m24SWS. its basically a military version of the remington 700. however, the military did very few upgrades to it. and look at it, its a very accurate rifle. the more parts we can make out of one solid material, rather than a bunch of materials attached via screws, the more tolerance a gun will have. I still firmly believe in scrapping the hop up and BBs in place of rifled barrels and bullet shaped projectile. range will decrease, yes I kno, but I would rather have to lob a bullet out to 200 feet accurately, than having to fire a flatter trajectory, but with less accuracy.

I really agree with you there with the scrapping of the hop up, but the one major disadvantage would be that AEG's would have range on us even more. I feel that finding an alternative to hop up would help a lot.

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<AT>sniperx2s

 

I also agree with the idea of having lesser parts to disassemble and upgrade. less parts, less problem. if we could work on a design with lesser parts or lesser moving parts maybe this idea will be a reality... sooner.

 

as for the AEGs' advantage over our rifles, I totally agree with you that IF they acquire the same stealth, fieldcraft and camo like us they will be a great threat. the funny thing is, only a fraction of AEG users realize this. especially in small games, these AEG wielding grunts will go on a frenzy when the game starts trying to rack up as much kills as they can that they usually forget about tactics and concealment. im not really sure, maybe im just seeing this here in our country.

 

anyway, this is actually going off topic. lets just stick to the discussion on how we can improve our rifles. nice to share ideas with you though... :a-salute:

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Man what a good read. I do not post much, but when I do I post ASF ;) Everything is spot on for the most part. What I want out of a shooter is simply Consistancy, Consistancy, Consistancy! When I am counting on the 1 shot to hit it's target that is all I ask out of my Bolty. I still shoot my MK96 after a year. I just got a ECHO1 M28 and can't wait to do some tinkering. By looking at the M28 I can already tell changes in the Airsoft Sniping world. these changes ARE for the better. Not just with the M28, but with other Sniping Systems all together. I really do not think it will be possible to shoot a plastic BB out to 300' and it hit a small pie plate everytime. The velocity it would take to push that round out that fast before wind plays a factor would be going way over the FPS limit and potentially destroy the BB. The longer the BB is in flight, the more wind and other elements effect it. However lets think about something. How about a harder compound type of BB? Polymer perhaps? Or maybe just maybe. A whole new redesigned airsoft system specifically made for Boltys? Oval shaped rounds maybe with rifled barrels? This is me and my imagaination at work here :) Anyways good to post here again. It's been awhile.

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<AT>sniperx2s

 

I also agree with the idea of having lesser parts to disassemble and upgrade. less parts, less problem. if we could work on a design with lesser parts or lesser moving parts maybe this idea will be a reality... sooner.

 

as for the AEGs' advantage over our rifles, I totally agree with you that IF they acquire the same stealth, fieldcraft and camo like us they will be a great threat. the funny thing is, only a fraction of AEG users realize this. especially in small games, these AEG wielding grunts will go on a frenzy when the game starts trying to rack up as much kills as they can that they usually forget about tactics and concealment. im not really sure, maybe im just seeing this here in our country.

 

anyway, this is actually going off topic. lets just stick to the discussion on how we can improve our rifles. nice to share ideas with you though... :a-salute:

I love the polymer bb's and oval bb's with rifling idea. I Honestly think it would and could work, my only worry would be having to hand load and less mag capacity, but with more accuracy, this shouldn't be a problem.

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Do you guys think buckings are okay? I was thinking that the "nub" could be moved into the barrel so that when the bb passes under the "nub", it's in the EXACT same position because it is part of the barrel. As in a mound in the brass or SS in the barrel. This does seem pretty impractical, especially in the development stages because lots of barrels could be wasted finding the right depth. Just exploring fixed hop-up. But, without a bucking the problem of airseal comes in. I guess the bucking could stay for the sole purpose of sealing the cylinder head to the barrel.

 

developing wouldnt be that hard, because, make one barrel, and all you need to do is find the right weight BB's. cheap solution.

 

as for the bucking for airseal, no. we must scrap that. to solve the air seal issue, we most look to the real steel counterpart for help. You look at a real steel bolt action rifle, and everytime you see the bolt being manipulated, you see the ENTIRE bolt rotation, not just the handle. now we coupld modify that for our needs. Every time you rotate the bolt up, it unlocks, and you can pull it back. load in a new BB, and it locks again. rotational locking movement, will create a perfect air seal between the cylinder and the barrel. The way to think of this is one of those covers that hold batteries in those lights. you rotate it, you can pull the battery cover off. you rotate it again, you seal it, and you cant open it. if we make that air tight, basically, you can still operate the bolt, but no air can get through.

 

 

this would be plan b if rifled bullets fail.

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Man what a good read. I do not post much, but when I do I post ASF ;) Everything is spot on for the most part. What I want out of a shooter is simply Consistancy, Consistancy, Consistancy! When I am counting on the 1 shot to hit it's target that is all I ask out of my Bolty. I still shoot my MK96 after a year. I just got a ECHO1 M28 and can't wait to do some tinkering. By looking at the M28 I can already tell changes in the Airsoft Sniping world. these changes ARE for the better. Not just with the M28, but with other Sniping Systems all together. I really do not think it will be possible to shoot a plastic BB out to 300' and it hit a small pie plate everytime. The velocity it would take to push that round out that fast before wind plays a factor would be going way over the FPS limit and potentially destroy the BB. The longer the BB is in flight, the more wind and other elements effect it. However lets think about something. How about a harder compound type of BB? Polymer perhaps? Or maybe just maybe. A whole new redesigned airsoft system specifically made for Boltys? Oval shaped rounds maybe with rifled barrels? This is me and my imagaination at work here :) Anyways good to post here again. It's been awhile.

 

ahh, the fun part. if we can make a super consistent rifle, it wouldnt be that hard to make a chart, or a program, that can determine where to shoot, depending on environmental variables. I have suggested having something like the advanced ballistics computer for airsoft, but then someone said that airsoft is too inconsistent to utilize it. However, if we do make a gun consistent enough, We can use it to our advantage.

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Suprafish,

 

Yes, buckings will have to be redesigned.

 

sniperx2s,

 

That is a very good design philosophy, one that you and many others, including myself, share. The guns now have a lot of parts, and the reason for that is cost. It is cheaper to have a small, thin inner barrel housed in an aluminum outer barrel than it is to have a solid, one piece barrel. It's cheaper to have the bolt riding on plastic rings than it is to hold the precision of a properly designed, metal on metal contact. It's cheap to make the guns the way they are now, and it's not cheap to make them right. The manufacturing game is to see which corners you can cut to bring down the price of your product to make it more affordable.

 

An example would be the receiver of an AK-47. It's manufactured by stamping a flat plate of steel into the correct form, which is cheaper than milling it from solid billet. It's a compromise. They can make those receivers fast and cheap. They can also mill out an AK-47 receiver, but it will be more expensive. The milled receiver will be better, maybe not by much, but better. A common phrase is that a stamped AK will last 2 lifetimes, and a milled AK will last 3. Both are very good, but the milled AK is better.

 

If we are really trying to push the envelope of accuracy, why would we compromise? Why would we cut corners? If I were to design a gun, it would be over-engineered, and it would cost a lot to make, but it would be accurate, and I would know that it would be the best that it could be because I would pay close attention to the way it was designed and manufactured.

 

And paying attention to how parts are manufactured is almost more important than how the part is designed (if you want it to be a good part)

 

Holes have to be drilled exactly where they are planned, and bores need to be straight and accurate. Precision measured in the tens of thousandths of inches needs to be there(.0001). And it's possible, we have the technology, the only thing is that it's not cheap.

 

And there in lies the problem. Not many want to pay over $1500 for an airsoft gun. The only thing I can think of, is to have financing available, like cars. Have the customer pay monthly.

 

But yes, fewer parts is better.

 

Designing the gun isn't the hard part, it's getting it made.

 

Chris R

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Chris R has read my mind! I beleive that if airsoft sniper rifles are to advance, we must redesign the projectile and what we use to stabilize it. It all must start at the bullet! Ithink that if we use rifle bullet shaped rounds and rifling, that we could acheive amazing accuracy. I also think that to have more range, we must simply have more accuracy. Say that today we can hit someone 8/10 times at 150 feet, and 4/10 at 200 feet. If we can make a gun that can hit the 150 foot mark 10/10 times, we will certainly be able to better hit the 200 foor mark, maybe 7/10 times, and so on. Range and accuracy go hand in hand. I also think that in the future they should use very powerful springs, but projectiles should weigh a minimum of like .4g, so the actual power isn't too much, but the heavy round will better withstand the wind. I can only hope this day will come, and when it does, I know what I'm buying :a-cheesy: .

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Chris R has read my mind! I beleive that if airsoft sniper rifles are to advance, we must redesign the projectile and what we use to stabilize it. It all must start at the bullet! Ithink that if we use rifle bullet shaped rounds and rifling, that we could acheive amazing accuracy. I also think that to have more range, we must simply have more accuracy. Say that today we can hit someone 8/10 times at 150 feet, and 4/10 at 200 feet. If we can make a gun that can hit the 150 foot mark 10/10 times, we will certainly be able to better hit the 200 foor mark, maybe 7/10 times, and so on. Range and accuracy go hand in hand. I also think that in the future they should use very powerful springs, but projectiles should weigh a minimum of like .4g, so the actual power isn't too much, but the heavy round will better withstand the wind. I can only hope this day will come, and when it does, I know what I'm buying :a-cheesy: .

lol basically what I have been saying...

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ok guys, little steps first, lets not try to build a brand new rifle from scratch. lets just assume that no one will be able to afford the perfect sniper rifle. what can we do to maximize the potential of the vsr-10/type 96? I think the easiest thing to start would be the rifled barrel/finned BB. we should start there. if that concepts proves to work well, we can move on. but for now lets just focus on that.

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will it be possible to use rifleing on the ammo instead of the barrel?

 

there are pics and diagrams of possible BB designs on this thread by sniperx2s that we can use together with the new design of a rifle to achieve better accuracy and range. if the rifle design will have no hopup, I think non-spherical projectiles will be possible to use.

 

EDIT: took me longer to post this while working. this should be before sniperx2s posted his thoughts above...

Edited by S n a k e™

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ok guys, little steps first, lets not try to build a brand new rifle from scratch. lets just assume that no one will be able to afford the perfect sniper rifle. what can we do to maximize the potential of the vsr-10/type 96? I think the easiest thing to start would be the rifled barrel/finned BB. we should start there. if that concepts proves to work well, we can move on. but for now lets just focus on that.

Unfortunately, the physics don't work out very well for that option. The BB doesn't fly fast enough to get out past much farther than 150 feet before gravity brings it down. The concept of hop up creating lift, extending range is an extremely critical technology for airsoft.

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Great discussion guys. Awesome stuff.

 

Chris: PM inbound.

 

ZER0: Long time no see. I would appreciate it if you could post up close up pics of the M28 internals for the community. Specifically cylinder and hop-up parts.

 

 

Everyone else:

I like where this is going. Really, I do. But I have a word of caution and that is that we DON'T want to turn airsoft guns into real steel guns. Rifling is one of the key DIFFERENCES between an airsoft barrel and a real steel barrel. Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that rifling depends on the BB to scrape itself down the barrel. Not only would we need a harder design but one that could handle the mechanics behind the rifling process.

 

I've got some ideas that I am going to share with Chris R. I'll post back later.

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I see your point Tux. honestly, with our play style, 300ft MER is good enough for me.

 

if we are to redesign the hopup, which do you think will be a better platform? the sliding arm type or the screw in type?

 

I was thinking of this to make a better seal on the parts we usually put teflon in. not really sure if this is an innovation or more of a DIY. ill share it anyways...

 

2ij6zpw.jpg

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Great discussion guys. Awesome stuff.

 

Chris: PM inbound.

 

ZER0: Long time no see. I would appreciate it if you could post up close up pics of the M28 internals for the community. Specifically cylinder and hop-up parts.

 

 

Everyone else:

I like where this is going. Really, I do. But I have a word of caution and that is that we DON'T want to turn airsoft guns into real steel guns. Rifling is one of the key DIFFERENCES between an airsoft barrel and a real steel barrel. Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that rifling depends on the BB to scrape itself down the barrel. Not only would we need a harder design but one that could handle the mechanics behind the rifling process.

 

I've got some ideas that I am going to share with Chris R. I'll post back later.

so we scrapping the rifling of the barrel and putting fins on BB's? ok.

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Tux, you hit the nail on the head with that one. If we try to do many of these things, we will figure out that shooting a non-spherical round is best, and in a rifled barrel. Then, to get a decent trajectory, we have to shoot it harder. At that point, you are just recreating the rifle!

 

What really needs to change, as many have said, is the round that we fire. I do not know enough about physics to give suggestions, but what I do know is this.

 

Airsoft guns are very capable of accuracy. With hopup units such as that of the MK96, as well as many others, it does not shift, essentially creating a fixed hopup . The issue is in the round that it fires. A 6mm bb is too liable to encounter wind resistance to be truly accurate to the standards many of us expect. Thus the race for a new, polished, heavier bb that is unaffected by the wind and other external factors. If some new idea were to come about involving the round, I believe that airsoft guns could become many times more accurate, but, as chris stated, within their safe effective range.

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I see your point Tux. honestly, with our play style, 300ft MER is good enough for me.

 

if we are to redesign the hopup, which do you think will be a better platform? the sliding arm type or the screw in type?

 

I was thinking of this to make a better seal on the parts we usually put teflon in. not really sure if this is an innovation or more of a DIY. ill share it anyways...

 

2ij6zpw.jpg

I think the screw idea would be a better method for adjustable hop up. there would be a lot more tolerance (and its easier to obtain) with a screw than a arm. if we keep it simple, and just having the screw as a nub, its possible to make it consistent. maybe copy PDI a little bit. instead of two arms, two screws. the to screws would be mounted on top, like on the TDC.

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I thought so. but if we are to use the screw type design as a base or platform, wouldnt it be much simpler if we use just one screw on top to apply hopup? IDK if its just me but I really don't dig the left-right adjustment option. let's keep it simple.

 

what I would like to add is a no-mound, soft rubber bucking that we can use with a hopup design with integrated SCS.

 

 

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A one piece barrel would be fairly easy to achieve, on a level of complexity. However, if we did not want to make that, due to money, could one pour bondo in between the inner and outer barrel?

 

when it comes to the cylinder rotating, I had an idea. If you were to attach the hop up to the cylinder, and make the cylinder head to hop up rubber a better made connection. Then instead of having the hop up hole be where it currently is, have it on the left side, and so when you :censored2: the bolt, it loads a bb, but once that bb is loaded you have a sealed chamber. I will work on a sketch up model of what I am talking about, if it doesn't make sense.

 

I personally think that noobie has more or less perfected the trigger mechanism. just throwing that out there.

 

The stock should be solid and fitting perfectly to the other parts.

 

Edit: rubber bbs? the higher coefficient of static friction, the more effective the hop up is.

 

Double Edit: rubber bbs would cause friction on the barrel. So we should find something that has a high coefficient between rubber and the bb material, and a low between material and metal barrel.

 

Triple Edit: Screw is better IMO. but you can have the screw be a nub because then when you rotate it then you change the direction of your nub.

 

Quad edit: the piston should be smaller, so there is less of a vibration.

Edited by Gunshot

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This is a great thread, it's really got me thinking. From the majority of the discussion here, it is apparent that consistency issues lie with the Hop-up system and the BB's themselves, not just the power source.

 

will it be possible to use rifleing on the ammo instead of the barrel?

 

That's exactly what I was thinking! :a-grin:

I pictured a new reshaped projectile; about the same length as a 22 round(just using it as a reference), same diameter round tip as a normal BB (to avoid injury), and 3 or 4 small groves cut into the cylinder portion of the projectile. The pitch of the groves would have to be experimented with because (correct me if I'm wrong) the steeper the pitch of the groves the quicker the projectile will grab a hold of the air and then spin faster(centrifugal stability) , but in turn it will lose it's inertia quickly, on the other hand a projectile with a less aggressive pitch will take longer to grow in rotational speed but will keep it's inertia for a long period of time. Sorry if I rambled on, I'm just throwing out some ideas.

 

I realize that it's a lot easier to say then do, but if sniper's want to set themselves apart from AEG users, we will have to experiment with these types of new ideas.

 

Edit: It's just easier to show then trying to explain it. It has a 6mm DIA and is 12mm in length.

 

th_BBrender.jpg th_BBrender2.jpg

Edited by coulter

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Another option for hop up units is to make the unit fixed, but have different grades of rubbers. The mildest would protrude the least into the barrel, and the most aggressive would protrude the most. That way, no screw is stretching and distorting the rubber, and the stability of a fixed unit is achieved with the addition of flexibility.

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They wouldn't even have to be different grades of rubber. why not have a bucking with the nub built in, and then you can put in a different bucking with the nub still built it but slightly in or out. Use Snakes design above, and change your bucking if you want to adjust your hop up.

 

Also, if all those o rings were x rings, and there were also x rings on the outside of the inner barrel, that may help as well.

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A different shaped BB while keeping current hop-up is out of question. It needs to be round. Without a round BB we would have no hop-up and therefore no range/lift.

 

The only ways I know of to create such a lift out of a different shaped BB would be to add rifling, a "flatline" type of barrel (LRB), and power. Lot's of power -- to the DANGEROUS level.

 

Soooo... I had an idea that MIGHT work -- an out there one but it would require a LOT of work to get it going.

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