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Tux

Rethinking The Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process

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+1 to tux. hop up is needed to provide back spin.

 

Please share.

 

what if one was to cnc bbs from a polymer? Its been done with metal, and they ended up very expensive...

 

so lets say we design a fixed hop up sniper rifle with a solid outer barrel, re cnced reciever so it matches the cylinder, noobies trigger, a cylinder head with o or even x rings, a bucking with the nub built in with anti blowby rings, and find a perfect bb for it. what else do we need?

 

Realistically, 500ft is somewhat absurd. Lets say we get the max fps up to 650 fps in fields, with an MED of 200. that means that it would take .76923 seconds to get to your 500 foot target. If there is a 1 mph cross wind, that means that wind is flying across at 5280 feet per hour. divide by 60*60, and you can find that and thats how many feet per second it moves across: ~1.5 feet per second. with a 1 mile an hour wind. multiply that by you flight distance, and you get 1.1 feet of movement. with 1 mile and hour wind. and that does not include air resistance, which would decelerate the bb, so it would have a longer flight time, so it would be affected by the cross wind more.

 

A torso is about 18 inches by 24 inches, just a guess. If you are aiming in the center if their chest with a 1 mph crosswind with a 650 fps at 500 feet, you would miss, and that is if you would hit the same exact place on the target every time indoors.

 

Of course, this doesn't take into account inertia, where a heavier bb is more likely to fly straight. But the point is that even the smallest wind will have an effect on a bb that will be noticeable, especially considering the range of weights we would consider (no more than 1 gram, most likely much less than that)

 

My point is that I would rather shoot for torso 9 out of 10 at 400 than try for 500, because torso that much more possible at 400 than of 500.

 

 

 

 

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While I'm no longer a snper to any degree, I did have a few ideas that I wanted to kick around from a while ago.

 

The first is just free floating the outer barrel. I'm starting to realize it would be very dificult to do on the VSR design with te screws where they are and lack of tolerances in the stock.

 

The second is using three buckings instead of one. So there's the original bucking a it's normal spot. Then, there's a second bucking 120 degrees offset somewhere down the barrel. The third is 120 degrees away from the second and also spaced the same amout away. The idea is that it will give the BB a spin similar to a football.

 

Feel very free to shoot these down. They're more random ideas then they are logic and testing.

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Thanks Snake. what does the back half of the piston do? other than stabilization...?

 

Tux gave us a teaser....

 

would making the piston head a cone, and the cylinder head tapered to that cone, improve airflow and maximize the space in the cylinder?

 

the back portion is the one that catches on the piston sear when we cycle the bolt. we can also work a design on an improved "airbrake" designed for a tapered/beveled cylinder head.

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While I'm no longer a snper to any degree, I did have a few ideas that I wanted to kick around from a while ago.

 

The first is just free floating the outer barrel. I'm starting to realize it would be very dificult to do on the VSR design with te screws where they are and lack of tolerances in the stock.

 

The second is using three buckings instead of one. So there's the original bucking a it's normal spot. Then, there's a second bucking 120 degrees offset somewhere down the barrel. The third is 120 degrees away from the second and also spaced the same amout away. The idea is that it will give the BB a spin similar to a football.

 

Feel very free to shoot these down. They're more random ideas then they are logic and testing.

I think spacing them out would cause alot of problems with accuracy. I think the closer the hop up do the actual bb is from the instant it speeds up the better. Meaning if you stuck the hop up at the end of the barrel where it exits it would be 10x less effective.

 

I also think that placing at different degrees wouldnt cause it to spin like a football. if you think about it. if you tilt your gun sideways. then technically thats that same as if your hop up was on the side. it would just cause the bb to rotate in a sideways manner.

 

 

But the football effect was what came to my mind when I was reading all this too. I just have no idea how it would work.

post-61354-1291777224_thumb.png

Edited by Karatekid18

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using 3 nubs might just cause the BB to loose its power faster because it would already use up probably around 8-12% of its power just by passing over 3 different nubs.

 

and no, it will not cause the BB to spin like a football. that is because the ammo we use is not shaped like a football. the added range that a football can achieve over regular round balls is not only coming from the spin when its thrown but also from its shape. in our case, the BBs final spin direction will just be changed by the position of the last nub that the BB needs to pass.

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the back portion is the one that catches on the piston sear when we cycle the bolt. we can also work a design on an improved "airbrake" designed for a tapered/beveled cylinder head.

 

ohhh hahaha fail. brain fart.

 

does the piston spin in the cylinder? If not, then our piston could just be the piston head plus the bottom connecting portion of the piston.

 

3 nubs wouldn't work, as Snake explained well. What happens when you throw a baseball to have football spin? Its called a slider, which is purposely meant to NOT go straight...

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ohhh hahaha fail. brain fart.

 

does the piston spin in the cylinder? If not, then our piston could just be the piston head plus the bottom connecting portion of the piston.

 

3 nubs wouldn't work, as Snake explained well. What happens when you throw a baseball to have football spin? Its called a slider, which is purposely meant to NOT go straight...

 

 

 

n474mw.jpg

 

here's my initial design. as suggested, I made the piston more compact. by doing that, I also made the spring guide shorter so it will still fit on the back end on the piston when cycled.

 

for the spring, I made it thicker and wider but spaced out farther from each other compared to the springs we currently use. I imagine this would already give out a rating of around 600fps or maybe more. the reason I made it thicker is to compensate for the short new spring guide. since its thicker its less prone to bend when we cycle the bolt. the sorbo pads installed on the design is more of user preference.

 

this is all I can think of rightnow. please feel free to make corrections and/or suggestions.

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only comment would be to try a tapered piston head and cylinder head, and even possibly a cone sorbothane?

oh, and maybe have the spring go into the spring guide like a hook? or make the spring guide to and cylinder one piece? or both?

 

EDIT: what program are you using?

 

Edit 2: how much does a spring expand width wise when compressed?

Edited by Gunshot

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Your piston is going to slip off of your sear system without a rear o-ring. I would recommend a spring guide stopper with magnetic base as well as magnetic base on spring guide. In addition, spring guide stopper needs to have a fastening screw like that seen in PDI models.

 

Receiver needs to be manufactured to spec of the cylinder -- aka no white/black cylinder guide delrin rings would be needed. This will also reduce play in the cylinder system while bolt cycling, which causes unneeded wear and tear.

 

If it were my preference, cylinder head nozzle base would be slightly padded for reduced metal-on-metal contact noise from cylinder head hitting hop-up chamber when cycling bolt.

Stage 1 and stage 2 cylinders need to be created with ports to account for proportionate barrel volume to cylinder volume amongst different barrel lengths.

 

 

There are loads more... I'm just tired and ran out of ideas.

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n474mw.jpg

 

here's my initial design. as suggested, I made the piston more compact. by doing that, I also made the spring guide shorter so it will still fit on the back end on the piston when cycled.

 

for the spring, I made it thicker and wider but spaced out farther from each other compared to the springs we currently use. I imagine this would already give out a rating of around 600fps or maybe more. the reason I made it thicker is to compensate for the short new spring guide. since its thicker its less prone to bend when we cycle the bolt. the sorbo pads installed on the design is more of user preference.

 

this is all I can think of rightnow. please feel free to make corrections and/or suggestions.

I still think we should just scrap springs all together. remember this thread?

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/compress...at-t199848.html

 

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If I understand the design correctly, that would create so little force...

you have x volume, half that volume, you have double the pressure. Is the inside of the piston pre pressurized?

 

What I have learned from projects I have done is that the simpler it is the more likely it is to work. What more likely to break or have a problem, your car or skateboard?

 

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I'm finding this discusion fascinating. I'm currently looking for a platform to hit reliably out to 200'. Consistency to 100 yards would be icing on the cake and a personal accomplishment.

 

I disagree with the need for a different shaped projectile. We could re-invent the gun if this is taken to the logical conclusion - more mass, more velocity, heavier projectile, shaped and spun for stability, voila gunpowder and lead! LOL

 

But I'm not shooting down the idea. It's fascinating. An airsoft minie ball would be an interesting thing.

 

I'm also going to endorse a short but fat cylinder - you can make a lot more force by moving a large amount of air relatively slowly than a small amount of air fast.

 

An air spring would work fine, but I'd pressurize the gas behind the cylinder to increase the force imparted to the BB. Of course, "would work fine" assumes you can seal the area behind the piston to a higher pressure than in front of the piston. A spring is a simpler technology that can do the same thing - no need for o-rings and seals to contain a high pressure gas, but behaves the same way. And is less afected by ambient temps.

 

But the air spring idea is worth considering - it could be charged like a gas gun and have a valve that opens once it reaches the end of travel and dumps behind the bb, so you'd have the benefits of gas and spring in one. Not much worse a gas hog than a blowback pistol, but potentially much higher velocities than you'd get from a spring or gas alone. I couldn't make it work, but I bet someone at KSC or something would know exactly how to do it.

 

My wish list is the longest practical barrel, the largest volume cylinder, and a tighbore barrel, with no leakage behind the BB. Once you have those, refinements can begin. "Longest practical barrel" is obviously subjective. I would prefer the shortest possible barrel while still hitting my target, but I'm guessing that the "shortest possible" is still longer than I'd say is practical: )

 

Another consideration has to come up - breakage. It does no good to get the maximum power out of a kit if it breaks in the field. There needs to be a way to slow the piston before it smacks the end or you will break the cylinder eventually. Ask me how I know :)

Edited by 40oz

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Anyone ever play with one of those vortex nerf footballs?when you throw them, even a small child, can make that thing soar. It has grooves that force the ball into a perfect spiral every time. It also has a tail to help stabalize it in mid flight. Think if you could add that technology to an airsoft pellet designed for single shot guns. If I can throw a normal football. 100 yards, ican throw that vortex 3-400.

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Those balls have more momentum. Make them the size of a bb, and they wouldn't work.

Ever tried to fly small paper airplanes? they aren't near as successful, because they have less air to hold them up, just like how tiny footballs would have less air to make them spin, and thus travel.

 

Those footballs basically make it so air resistance does not affect the ball. you do that with a bb, and have no back spin, fire it horizontal, and it would barely go out 200 feet.

 

40oz brings up a good point with the larger cylinder.... that way we can get larger force with a smaller spring, with would mean less force on the sears, I think...

 

if you slow down the piston, then you need an airbrake, which would decrease fps. We cut our air brakes for a reason. However, if we did increase the volume of the cylinder, then maybe we could provide an airbrake.

 

barrel length doesnt effect accuracy as much as the ratio between cylinder and barrel being correct, I believe.

 

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Okay, here is an idea I would like to pass along for a nice consistent hop-up.

 

Instead of the hop-up coming from a bucking, could we put a groove along the top of the barrel to give the BB backspin? Why must the hop-up come from the bucking? I don't see how this would be adjustable, but I just wanted to know why the bucking itself is so important.

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Why a hop up? why not have a clockwise rotation? And is there a weight maximum for bbs?seems like. 43 are the heaviest I can

Find. Sorry new to airsoft,and learning so much from this thread.

 

The reason for hop-up is two-fold.

 

The plastic BB is too light and isn't moving fast enough to carry very far. The backspin - hop-up - gives the BB some lift after it leaves the barrel, you can see it go out then curve upwards before arcing back down. To get a similar range without hop-up you'd have to increase the BB's weight and velocity greatly, which would just hurt people.

 

And the spin gives the projectile a degree of stability in the air. Since the BB is round, it wouldn't automatically have more longitudinal stability if it spun like a bullet or football. But the hop-up spin does reduce the tendency to veer off even when there is no wind.

 

The spin on a BB is similar to that on a golf ball - it gives it lift and helps keep the path straight - it doesn't "want" to deviate from a straight line, but being so light, it can't put up much of a fight.

 

There are a large number of reasons why an airsoft BB isn't as accurate as other projectiles. A bit part of that is just mass. But another huge part is all the variances from the time the BB is fired until it leaves the barrel. And that's not even getting into the way a person uses their gun. It takes a lot of practice to fire a real steel gun accurately and consistently, especially without a support for the gun.

Edited by 40oz

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There are a large number of reasons why an airsoft BB isn't as accurate as other projectiles. A bit part of that is just mass. But another huge part is all the variances from the time the BB is fired until it leaves the barrel. And that's not even getting into the way a person uses their gun. It takes a lot of practice to fire a real steel gun accurately and consistently, especially without a support for the gun.

 

Yeah the biggest limiter is definitely mass. Mass and velocity.

 

Chris

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Hey guys, I'm very new to the forums, but I've been a pretty avid airsoft sniper for the past several years. When I came upon this thread my mind started going insane. The possibilities are endless. I agree with Tux saying that we must keepit from being like its real firing counterpart, so tossing out the rifled barrel. Heres a couple things that I have been very eagerly researching and reading about and in want to share them to everyone here on the forum who I have now come to love based on the plethera of knowledge. So here they are:

 

1. The first obviously being that AEGs have the upperhand to firepower. ya thats just common knowledge. So our biggest issue is accuracy as youahave all mentioned. So, we need a new projectile that the owner of AEGs just wouldn't want to tamper with. My proposal: golfball-like dimpled bbs. There have already been several prototypes, but the biggest issue at the moment is that they are far to small in diameter and people have noticed that their gun sound like it is dry firing when being shot just because the air seal is so poor. If we had a 5.98mm dimpled bb I think it could very largely affect its accuracy. Especially because of the one dimple pattern used on one type of ball where going down the centerline of the bb, there were shallower dimples of a different design than on the outside. This pattern was actually outlawed by the PGA because it effectively decreased the hook and slice up to 75% making it fly far straighter and longer. They, of course would be of a very heavy weight to be effective, obviously because of the already decreased mass due to the dimples. If we could make a .3 gram+ dimpled bb, I'm sure that they would work in our favor.

 

2. My next thing is actually a necessary result due to the dimples. We would have to come up with some sort of new hop-up bucking and nub to evenly disperse the backspin so desperatly needed for our range on our bbs. Otherwise, the nub will come into contact in various places of the bb during each shot completely obliterating our consistency. But if we could come up with something like soft rubber or a durable foam or somthing that would still produce the effect of backspin on the bb to make it more consistant. However, I still like the idea of a various pitch hopup and a changable hopup. What happens when we need to make a shot farther out but our hopup is set too low to produce the range. I know that I personally keep a log of each range that I shoot at and keep my hopup notched to where it is the most effective at what range. SO, after ranging my target, I change my hop-up setting, and take a SWAG and fire.

 

3. I absolutely love SNAKES proposals and drawings with the piston. So, for my next point, just read SNAKES's posts and diagrams and you've got it. He hit it the nail dead on in my opinion. There are always some tweaks and things to be made, like the biggest to me would be the spring.. This all ties together with my next point of necessity:

 

4. Power. Plain and simple. I 125% agree that we must keep our fps to a effective minimum for safety purposes. To me an ideal range of fps being somewhere in the 500s and very slightly 600s if viewing an extended minimum firing range. Everyone is saying that accuaracy is the most important over range and power for MODs and everything else and just in general. While I agree with that, I still think that power is of vital importance. Accuracy depends on our power. Plain and simple. Feel free to shoot me down here (no pun intended) when I say that. Without power the bb inevitably is far more effected during flight. The faster the bb travels, the less time that wind has and gravity has to take its course and wreck the chances of making our mark. One person has already done the math in an earlier post ( I'm sorry your name escapes me as I spend more time reading the actual informaion than trying to remember who posted them.. D-:) and has done a spectacular job with showing my point.

 

So in my opinion, to wrap this all up, what we need is an ammo of a specific "Sniper-Only" grade that AEG weilders wouldn't tamper with, an effective bb-molding nub for the hop-up, a new design for our pistons (which I more or less have no ideas other than those I have so enjoyed from SNAKE), and a strong enough power system (spring, piston, compression surface area, and speed of the compressed air being releases) to achieve what we really desire, being a fair "Sniper's Advantage" of those who spray and pray. Please shoot down anything that you see fit to do so to in my post. I'm just throwing out ideas and my own personal opinions.

 

Thanks,

Alex

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1. The first obviously being that AEGs have the upperhand to firepower. ya thats just common knowledge. So our biggest issue is accuracy as youahave all mentioned. So, we need a new projectile that the owner of AEGs just wouldn't want to tamper with. My proposal: golfball-like dimpled bbs. There have already been several prototypes, but the biggest issue at the moment is that they are far to small in diameter and people have noticed that their gun sound like it is dry firing when being shot just because the air seal is so poor. If we had a 5.98mm dimpled bb I think it could very largely affect its accuracy. Especially because of the one dimple pattern used on one type of ball where going down the centerline of the bb, there were shallower dimples of a different design than on the outside. This pattern was actually outlawed by the PGA because it effectively decreased the hook and slice up to 75% making it fly far straighter and longer. They, of course would be of a very heavy weight to be effective, obviously because of the already decreased mass due to the dimples. If we could make a .3 gram+ dimpled bb, I'm sure that they would work in our favor.

They have made them, and they didn't work in our favor, according to their tests. There are dimplex" bbs, and they were less accurate than bbbmaxs normal bbs. (links at bottom) Also, inertia (what makes stuff go straight) is strong when there is more mass, so I think that we need as large of a mass as we can use... even if that is .32 instead of .3.

 

2. My next thing is actually a necessary result due to the dimples. We would have to come up with some sort of new hop-up bucking and nub to evenly disperse the backspin so desperatly needed for our range on our bbs. Otherwise, the nub will come into contact in various places of the bb during each shot completely obliterating our consistency. But if we could come up with something like soft rubber or a durable foam or somthing that would still produce the effect of backspin on the bb to make it more consistant. However, I still like the idea of a various pitch hopup and a changable hopup. What happens when we need to make a shot farther out but our hopup is set too low to produce the range. I know that I personally keep a log of each range that I shoot at and keep my hopup notched to where it is the most effective at what range. SO, after ranging my target, I change my hop-up setting, and take a SWAG and fire.

Personally, I aim higher, and always have my hop up and scoped aimed in at 175'. you change your hop up, and your scope is off....

3. I absolutely love SNAKES proposals and drawings with the piston. So, for my next point, just read SNAKES's posts and diagrams and you've got it. He hit it the nail dead on in my opinion. There are always some tweaks and things to be made, like the biggest to me would be the spring.. This all ties together with my next point of necessity:

 

4. Power. Plain and simple. I 125% agree that we must keep our fps to a effective minimum for safety purposes. To me an ideal range of fps being somewhere in the 500s and very slightly 600s if viewing an extended minimum firing range. Everyone is saying that accuaracy is the most important over range and power for MODs and everything else and just in general. While I agree with that, I still think that power is of vital importance. Accuracy depends on our power. Plain and simple. Feel free to shoot me down here (no pun intended) when I say that. Without power the bb inevitably is far more effected during flight. The faster the bb travels, the less time that wind has and gravity has to take its course and wreck the chances of making our mark. One person has already done the math in an earlier post ( I'm sorry your name escapes me as I spend more time reading the actual informaion than trying to remember who posted them.. D-:) and has done a spectacular job with showing my point.

accuracy is hurt by our power oin our current design because more power means more vibration. But we need more power to get our range. The faster it goes, the more vibration there air, etc, and you result in less accuracy. That's partially why you don't your whole airbrake off. There was a maximum ideal amount of energy we should put behind the bb, and in that sense, that ideal force will help velocity if we can achieve it with either less moving parts or parts that cause less vibration. This is why I support the Idea of a wider diameter cylinder that is shorter, because then the spring wouldnt have to be as strong to pump through the air, so there would be less vibrations.

So in my opinion, to wrap this all up, what we need is an ammo of a specific "Sniper-Only" grade that AEG weilders wouldn't tamper with, an effective bb-molding nub for the hop-up, a new design for our pistons (which I more or less have no ideas other than those I have so enjoyed from SNAKE), and a strong enough power system (spring, piston, compression surface area, and speed of the compressed air being releases) to achieve what we really desire, being a fair "Sniper's Advantage" of those who spray and pray. Please shoot down anything that you see fit to do so to in my post. I'm just throwing out ideas and my own personal opinions.

 

Thanks,

Alex

 

great read, good points. I highlighted my comments for each section.

 

The "press release"

The tests.

I personally think that the reason the dimplexs don't work and were never released if because the hop up did not work for them. I also think that using them would make it more complicated, and from an engineering perspective, there are less problems the more simple it is.

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Yeah the biggest limiter is definitely mass. Mass and velocity.

 

Chris

 

 

Crap! The last paragraph should open with: "There are a large number of reasons why an airsoft BB isn't as accurate as other projectiles. A big part of that is just mass."

 

I was trying to convey that the small mass of the projectile is the major reason for inconsistent shooting. Thanks for seeing that :) My typo implied the opposite.

Edited by 40oz

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Gunshot.

I definetly agree with you on the mass. We should always use the greatest mass for accuracy. Except to a point where sparing just a tad, could effectively get better accuracy and range results.

And just out of curiosity and in no way do I mean this rudely or spitefully, what was the point of those links? Because after reviewing them, It seemed to me that the results were increased fairly dramatically and enough to have a positive effect in our favor.

Also, If I have the time to set up and know where my target is and already have all of my notations written down, then why not use them to your advantage instead of simply aiming higher. I like to be as realistic as possible and have engaged in multiple MilSims and am a very stong believer in a logbook. Heres my process for taking down a target that I'm sure is not going to move (like a heavy machine gun emplacement), and with a lot of practice, I have gotten this down fairly well I might add. 1) I first range my target using my mildot system in my scope. I have a printed sheet of distances already so I just simply cross-reference them and get my range. 2) I then evaluate the wind. I spend very little time and if I simply think there is enough wind I just tune my scope accordingly based off of just practice and guessing. 3) I then using my range check my logbook for that distance and adjust my scope and hop-up to the settings that are written down for those conditions that I have previously come across. 4) So now my scope is set for the distance along with the wind and my hop-up for my best chance at hitting my mark. My system takes a lot of time to really master and I myself am just becoming fluent with it. However, when the target might only be presented for a short period of time, I agree and do use my good-old kentucky windage guess. Its just my personal preference that I think brings a new and more enjoyable aspect to the game for me.

And as for your last point, I absolutely agree with the piston, and it is actually my 3rd point above with SNAKES's diagrams and postings. There was a lot of talk about the shorter and wider cylinder and I honestly think its a great idea. It makes a ton of sense having the piston work for you, instead of against you. However, when you say power causes the object to become less stable due to the more vibrations I must respectfully disagree. I do agree that it might have effect while still in the gun and barrel itself because of the vibrations in the gun caused by the long cylinder, however I don't think it has as much effect once in the air, but your statement does have much credibility because the direction once in the air is effected by its vibrations while traveling out of the barrel. I think the faster it goes, the less time wind has to take its course and blow us off of OUR course of impact.

I agree that keeping it simple keeps problems down, as in the case with our automatic counterparts, they have many moving parts and their accuracy is inevitably faltered. However. I don't think that the hopup issue would be all that difficult to fix. Just have some sort of memory foam-like nub to come in complete contact with the bb and eliminate the inconsistencies. But I personally have limited knowledge with the hop-up system, so in all honestly, Im not too sure it would be all that easy, and im sure there would be other drawbacks than that. Its just a thought.

Thanks

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Gunshot.

I definetly agree with you on the mass. We should always use the greatest mass for accuracy. Except to a point where sparing just a tad, could effectively get better accuracy and range results.

And just out of curiosity and in no way do I mean this rudely or spitefully, what was the point of those links? Because after reviewing them, It seemed to me that the results were increased fairly dramatically and enough to have a positive effect in our favor.

If I understand the links correctly, at longer ranges the dimplex bbs have a larger spread then the normal bbbmax bbs

Also, If I have the time to set up and know where my target is and already have all of my notations written down, then why not use them to your advantage instead of simply aiming higher. I like to be as realistic as possible and have engaged in multiple MilSims and am a very stong believer in a logbook. Heres my process for taking down a target that I'm sure is not going to move (like a heavy machine gun emplacement), and with a lot of practice, I have gotten this down fairly well I might add. 1) I first range my target using my mildot system in my scope. I have a printed sheet of distances already so I just simply cross-reference them and get my range. 2) I then evaluate the wind. I spend very little time and if I simply think there is enough wind I just tune my scope accordingly based off of just practice and guessing. 3) I then using my range check my logbook for that distance and adjust my scope and hop-up to the settings that are written down for those conditions that I have previously come across. 4) So now my scope is set for the distance along with the wind and my hop-up for my best chance at hitting my mark. My system takes a lot of time to really master and I myself am just becoming fluent with it. However, when the target might only be presented for a short period of time, I agree and do use my good-old kentucky windage guess. Its just my personal preference that I think brings a new and more enjoyable aspect to the game for me.

You have to adjust both your scope and hop up accordingly. I just have to adjust my scope.

And as for your last point, I absolutely agree with the piston, and it is actually my 3rd point above with SNAKES's diagrams and postings. There was a lot of talk about the shorter and wider cylinder and I honestly think its a great idea. It makes a ton of sense having the piston work for you, instead of against you. However, when you say power causes the object to become less stable due to the more vibrations I must respectfully disagree. I do agree that it might have effect while still in the gun and barrel itself because of the vibrations in the gun caused by the long cylinder, however I don't think it has as much effect once in the air, but your statement does have much credibility because the direction once in the air is effected by its vibrations while traveling out of the barrel. I think the faster it goes, the less time wind has to take its course and blow us off of OUR course of impact.

Agreed with the latter. But inside the barrel, the vibrations cause inconsistent bb movement from the time before, which cause an inconsistent shot.

I agree that keeping it simple keeps problems down, as in the case with our automatic counterparts, they have many moving parts and their accuracy is inevitably faltered. However. I don't think that the hopup issue would be all that difficult to fix. Just have some sort of memory foam-like nub to come in complete contact with the bb and eliminate the inconsistencies. But I personally have limited knowledge with the hop-up system, so in all honestly, Im not too sure it would be all that easy, and im sure there would be other drawbacks than that. Its just a thought.

The memory foam style idea could work, but it would decrease your fps...

F=ma

a=v/t^2

the softer it is, the larger t is, the smaller a is, the smaller force is.

Thanks

 

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Oh. The way I understood them they had a smaller spread at 10m than the normal bbs and they had about 10m's length over the normal bbs with normal hop-up and without it. And ya. I just like having the capability and so I like to use. Haha. Again, its just personal preference. And ya. To your last two points, I totally agree. Thats why I like the idea of the wider and shorter cylinder like you do, to reduce these vibrations. And thats why I think that we need something besides memory foam and something harder. I agree is decreases the force by a lot. Its just another idea.

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I'll just drop off my comments, since I'm not really a spring sniper kind of guy but I do spend WAY too much time researching this stuff:

1. As for the cone/tapered cylinder head, someone on ASR smoothed out the cylinder head in a lathe and saw an increased FPS.

2. Back to what you mentioned, Tux, about a LRB similar to those seen in classics ... there was someone again on ASR shimming a VSR clone barrel to give it a curve -- replacing the hop up. I do not believe he ever released complete results but I thought it was promising.

 

I think the idea of the fixed hop up is one that is a long time in coming -- basically it just means that airsoft snipers will need to make a range card, just like in actual ballistics. Because the hop up will stay exactly where it is supposed to, the airsoft sniper will just use the same skill set used in RS -- ranging shots and adjusting scopes much in the same way. To adjust trajectory, simply adjust the ammunition weight or compensate according to your range card.

 

EDIT: Also as for free floating the barrel -- I'm not sure if the natural frequencies in a spring BASR in airsoft are really going to make that much difference -- I would be more concerned with the strength of the materials these barrels are made out of. I suspect free floating would actually lead to your barrel (outer and thus inner) bending downward under it's own weight.

Edited by laxweasel

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Before I say anything, I want to make it clear that I'm not a sniper, nor do I own any bolt action spring or gas rifles... but I've found this thread very interesting, and I've learned a lot from this discussion. I'm just posting some of my opinions and observations, so please take them as such.

 

I'm not sure about the fields/ops you guys play, but here in Texas, all the major ops follow TASO (Texas Airsoft Organization) rules of engagement... which include strict FPS guidelines for each type of player. Rifleman velocity is 400 fps with .2g, which is a hard limit, and a 20' MED. Snipers have a 550 fps with .2g velocity, also a hard limit, with a 100' MED. This seems to give a sniper or designated marksman a decent advantage over assault or rifleman players... if their rifles are up to the task. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like 550 fps is a good starting point for a sniper rifle. Not to mention, how accurate can you get at distances over 100' with a 400 fps AEG? With a finely tuned sniper system, that would give you a 200' advantage over assault players. Granted, it would take a lot of work (and money) to get a sniper system accurate out to 300' at 550 fps, but it seems feasible.

 

All the issues you've discussed still apply, such as wind and vibration causing accuracy issues... but real snipers have to deal with similar issues, only at longer distances. I've always thought that a big part of sniper training is calculating your shot... taking distance, wind, and other environmental variables into account before taking the shot. It's the same thing with airsoft, just at shorter distances. Even with assault rifles, effective range is out to 100 yards, whereas AEGs are typically accurate out to 100 feet... at least following TASO ROE. Of course, you can squeeze out more accuracy with specific upgrades and heavier bbs, just like you can with sniper systems... but the gun is only a tool, it's up to the operator to make it work to it's potential.

 

I agree that snipers don't have much of an advantage over riflemen, that's very true. But, as you've said, it's becoming easier and easier to upgrade your system to it's maximum potential... and it's only going to get better over time. With guys like you, and more manufacturers experimenting with different parts targeted at sniper systems, I think the platform is going to explode in the next few years. However, if the sniper platform leaps too far forward, you would end up with a huge advantage over assault players. Pushing 200 yards effectively against someone with a max range of 150 feet would be crazy, although more accurate to real snipers compared to infantry.

 

Personally, I see a sniper as more of a recon/support player... scouting the area and reporting back to command, providing cover for teammates during assaults, and taking out sensitive targets where possible. This style of play isn't the most exciting, and takes a lot of patience and dedication to become proficient in it. This is why most new players who start with sniper systems end up giving it up to play roles with more action, once they realize they might only get a couple of shots per game (if that.) Most new players are attracted to the sniper role because of Hollywood romanticizing it, and as long as newbies are buying BARs and ghille suits, manufacturers are going to keep making weapons and upgrades for that market, improving them with every new release.

 

Again, these are just some observations and opinions from someone outside of the sniper/designated marksman circle... so please correct me if I'm wrong, and take it for what it is. I'm not trying to start any kind of flaming or argument, just throwing in my $.02.

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you actually hit the jackpot there bro. very nice insight and observation.

 

TASO ROE is actually great. it gives the much needed balance between the assault and sniper roles. the same cannot be said where I live though. sniper's here needs to put up with an ROE of 450-480fps (20ft MED) for AEGs and STRICTLY 550fps (100ft MED) for BASR users. we are actually struggling to keep the balance between both roles. people here would rather be shot by a 480fps, semi-auto weapon from 20ft rather than being shot once by a 550fps BASR 100ft away.

 

with the ideas everyone is sharing here, im sure we will be able to come up with a better design not only to provide a more realistic advantage of the role from a shooting perspective but also maintain the balance between the two roles in the process.

 

 

--------------------------

EDIT:

 

2vvj1ht.jpg

 

this is the updated diagram. not much have changed. I just added the magnetic spring guide stopper that Tux suggested and the 90o trigger system. ill do some more research on the 90o trigger system so I can finish the diagram. ill then add the suggested new hopup design by you guys.

 

DISCLAIMER:

this is not the final design and it is not my own design. im just visualizing everybody's suggestions

Edited by S n a k e™

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Love the ideas in the thread. But wishing to be the one who initiates the sanity check purely because some of the comments here smack of bolty elitism. When it comes to long range engagements a decent dm can easily best most "snipers". So aeg's are theoretically just a touch more inaccurate than a bolty. So? I'll fire three BB's to your one and score that hit while your still trying to overcome the inherent inaccuracy that a spherical projectile has combined with its vulnerability to slight external factors. Thats why the emphasis on the reconnaissance and stealth part of the role is always so emphasized because when it comes down to a firefight a sniper rifle(notice I said rifle) is more of a liability than an asset. Purely my opinion having not seen a sniper turn the tide of whatever in my 5 years of airsofting.

 

There is also a selfish tone in this thread. Sounds kind of like "any major improvement in the ballistics of our sport will be the sole property of snipers for the sake of our need to play enemy at the gates". I say bull. That the improvements found by the sniping community will eventually proliferate around the sport as a whole leading to increased engagement distances and more accuracy for everyone.

 

Finally, my contribution to the thread as I felt this was a particularly significant improvement to the hopup system of our sport and that this has the most potential out of any of the suggestions here. Comical however, that it originated from the aeg side of things.

 

Apologies if this was already posted as I've been kind of out of the loop. The principle behind it is that essentially the "nub" is extended allowing the BB to have more time to contact the rubber. Still in its infancy, and not durable(being homemade) for high fps. But the more people that are working on improving this innovation. I feel. The better.

 

Quasar Hopup Mod

Edited by sniperelite7

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I'm already testing this theory and will have some enlightenment soon enough.

 

Likewise, I feel the balance has been offset long enough with the disadvantage bolt-action users have. I don't see anything wrong with sticking our heads together to innovate our guns to a point where we have a significant advantage.

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I'm already testing this theory and will have some enlightenment soon enough.

 

Likewise, I feel the balance has been offset long enough with the disadvantage bolt-action users have. I don't see anything wrong with sticking our heads together to innovate our guns to a point where we have a significant advantage.

 

 

When did you start testing it? I personally have tried it myself but saw no improvement. Digging deeper into the thread I posted shows alot of very useful info and even the link to where the mod originated from. When you do complete the modification, could you post a video with with the proper measurement of the distance?

 

Personally what I've been hoping for was a linear increase in range correlating to the fps and weight of the BB. The problem however as has been said is that it is not durable enough for anything above, I think it was 450fps.

Edited by sniperelite7

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Haha. SNiper Elite, I love your comment about how we are being selfsish. I must agree. We snipers to do be selffish about things that could finally give us our break seeing as AEGs tend to have an unending plethera of upgrades and add-ons available to them. We snipers simply want something that could finally even the odds a little. Granted, a truly great sniper (notice I said sniper and not sniper rifle) does not really need these advantages over an AEG. However it is very nice to have them. Haha. WE are just seeking a little bit of a break in the lopsided battle of snipers vs. AEGs. Thats all. I don't mean to flame that statement by any means. Personally, as I've already said, I agree, but were just jealous and zealous that you can achieve that which we can, when we should be able to double this achievement, is all. Thats just how we are. And I think I speak for 99.999% of people that have added their $0.02 to this thread, when I say that all of us are trying to reach a means of re-rotating this. But of course, thanks for adding this, as it does hold water. :-D

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Snake: your most recent design looks great, except I still think we need conical piston and cylinder head. Also, what program do you use?

 

Sniper Elite: has a tdc style hop up made it around the sport? Also, I don't think we should change our ballistics shape, but its weight. Are you ever going to see a rifleman using a .35 bb? I honestly don't think that what we do will change anything with AEGs, because its a whole other playing field. Why would an AEG get rid of the ability to use hi caps for a minimal gain? Why would the hundreds of already designed, successful guns completely switch to a much more expensive design? Whatever we do will not be in the budget of AEGs. we are talking about 1000 dollar plus rifles.

 

 

EDIT: Private Pyle: that is correct at 10m, but at the longer distances it switches.

Edited by Gunshot

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I agree with what you said sniperelite7. more and more people are going for the role of the sniper thinking thay they would be able to do what they have seen in the movies. there are but a few who really understands how the role should be played. sad but true...

 

the main purpose of this thread, AFAIK, is to revolutionize the design of existing sniper weapons to bring the balance back in the game. in real life, no assault-type weapon has more accuracy and range over a sniper rifle. with the multitude of upgrades available for an AEG to increase accuracy and range, the balance is starting to deminish. the best way, IMO, to bring the balance back is to either have a universal ROE like the one by TASO (which is pretty much next to impossible) or re-design the sniper weapon system we use to even out the odds.

 

EDIT:

<AT>Gunshot - ill cook up a design of the tapered cylinder head and coned piston that you requested. ill post it soon as I finish it. btw, Im just using MS Paint. (thats all thats available for me here in the office)

 

 

Edited by S n a k e™

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I'm sorry for being so ingorant, but I'm lost as to what TASO and ROE stand for. Could someone please fill me in if its not any issue?

And SNAKE, the design looks great thus far, far better than I could do with just Paint at my disposal (I'm more of a pencil and paper drafting kind-of guy..). I can't wait to see the conical cylinder and piston. This is really what we need here. Just fixing a few small and minor issues like the size and shape of things like the cylinder that could possibly give us a better edge. Great work to all of you. I'm going to continue to add in my thoughts and tid-bits, but I must tip my hat to all of you. This is really great work.

Now, can I please ask, how can we go about implementing these new designs and MODs into our current gun(s)? We are throwing a lot into all this (when I say we, I mean all of you. I think I'm just more of enjoying the ride(-: ) and it would be an awful waste of time and talent if none of this came to avail. SO, does anyone have any ideas that won't break the bank on any of us and could become maybe even marketable? I mean, I know this is looking a little ahead of things, but if we find that these things that look great on paper are also great in person as well, with a prototype that someone with money on this forum goes out and gets machined, what then? If anything is going to become an inovation it must also become available to the public or to fellow snipers in the market.. I was just wondering. It doesn't by any means need to be discussed now, or even later if this thread is only just that, a thread.

Again, Thanks to all of you.

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