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Rethinking The Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process

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40oz,

I like the way you think. Obviously thats going to be a big factor. Haha. But believe me, if we have everything in the world, every last screw and everything bolted down in line, with out properly functioning and consistent mechinisms in this ideally aligned gun, then it still makes no difference, since the gun with still be shooting right one shot and then left the next. We are redesigning the internals and trying to get the ideal performance out of them as possible, before we move on and start working on the other parts. The whole basis of this thread is to really re-engineer and redesign the spring BASR to give us back the edge that our steel counterparts have on the battlefield by actually redesign and by scrapping existing designs to come up with better working mechinisms, like doing away with the slide-bar hop-up for more consitency and having a shorter, fatter cylinder for better air compression. We are trying to eliminate all of the basic vibration and and consistency problems first so that when we have those down, the rest will run like clock-work.

 

I honestly am not sure how far into redesigning this un we all plan to go, but in my opinion we ought to engineer a new stock and reciever and everything else to where we have our own new re-engineered spring BASR. If everyone would just like to work with the internals, I'm still going to incorporate all of these parts and pieces into a new gun with a personally designed stock of my liking and if you guys would like once we have all of these new internals done, I'll post up my design, if anybodies interested to get a whole gun going, if not then I'll just use our parts and mechs that we're working on and design my own personal stock for myself. But if anybody is interested, then I'll start work on incorporating SNAKEs designs into a full-out new BASR gun. If anybody is interested, I don't want to threadjack, even though it really wouldn't be, because its all really for the same principle and gun design, just shoot me a pm and I'l post a new thread that will focus on the externals parts aside from the barrel (since its already being discussed). Mainly preference on the stock and the like.

 

Whats you take on this SNAKE, if you don't mind me asking you directly? I'd like to throw together one full all encompassing gun together using everyone's ideas and your drawn up designs for internals. It'd just be like mechanical drawings and technical drawings of the full gun. Or do you and everyone else want to leave it at the seperate parts like the barrel, hop-up, cylinder and all that we could just mod to our current guns? Its totally up to you guys. I know regardless, once these ideas are kinda finalized (and hopefull become manufactured and prototyped for us), that I'm going to make my own seperate gun that encompasses everything that we've come up with. But, as I've said, I can start drawing up some designs for externals and aesthetics if you guys would like. Again, just shoot me a pm, and we can all start talking about internals here and on a new thread externals for this re-engineered gun giving us our edge that has been so prolonged. :-D :a-grin:

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Still again, not wanting to rain on this parade but your still limited by physics! So what if you design a gun that can shoot 1 inch groupings at 200ft. Your effective range is still 50-75ft above AEG's. Distances that mind you can be easily closed by rapid movement and suppressive fire. Or your accuracy counteracted by an enterprising designated marksman!

Its machined from one piece? I'm not impressed. Not unless you can carry that accuracy consistently above 300ft and further. Then your still playing the guessing game, albiet with a heavier though more accurate rifle. Your BB's are still going to plow into the ground, or your going too need to lob at such an ungodly angle that you might as well just call the US army to shell the damn place.

This might work if you guys start a movement to raise the fps limits, but I doubt you'll have enough support and this will end up being relegated to private skirmishes. At which point why would I buy your expensive cnc machined one-piece body? When I can buy a tanaka and hpa rig then jack the fps to some ungodly power level!

I'll say it again. Unless something is done to improve or replace the hopup. Our primary mechanism for range. All this will accomplish is something along the lines of right-hook fabrication. An expensive, though machined, tackdriver. Who's performance can be replicated for less.

 

Sorry guys, just a sanity check.

Edited by sniperelite7

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Why would we need something that will only out range an AEG by 50-75 feet that is extremely accurate?

 

Do you really need an answer?

 

 

Well here ya go :D consider this an early xmas gift.....

 

If we are out in the field and I am in position watching my objective. I can see people moving around but only have a very small window to hit a certian person. If I am able to hit that person with one bb that is going to save me alot of headache. 1. The possibility of someone hearing the shot is nill. 2. The chance of them finding me ... again is nil. 3. Me being able to get out of the area and take another shot from a different position... very high. 4. The other team seeing one of there leaders take a shot to the head. very high.

 

So why would we not want a rifle that can do this?

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Hahaha. Yes! Woogie, that just made my day. Sniperelite7, don't question the power of the sniper. Haha. I'm trying to come up with something to say thats worth while, but man, Woogie you nailed that one. I love it. Again. Perfect answer, it totally made my day a whole lot better. :a-yesnod:

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Oh. And just another thing I think should be said, Sniperelite7, please don't flame the thread if you haven't even read the darn thing. One piece? Seriously? No. We were talking about the barrel. The gun is going to still be composed of many parts, like the barrel, reciever, stock, bolt, cylinder. Come on man. Before saying your not impressed, read exactly what it is that you think is such a bad idea, and then, after you've thought about the different possibilities that there really are and you still think it is so bad, you may respectfully say so. Just don't come out after reading a snippet of a post on a 3+ page thread and expect you have any honest clue as to what we are really talking about.

 

So, just to let you know what we are really even talking about, I'll give you a little update. There are about 7+ish people that are honestly trying to redefine what it mean to be an airsoft sniper. One who can effectively pull off 150+ yard shots while still maintaing accuracy and not having a worry in the world of having anybody know where the heck you are, and if they do, they are then pressed with the challenge of trying to figure out how the heck to hit a sniper that far away. So, what we have done, and are still effectively working on, is to create the ideal weapon system for a spring BASR. So far, what we have is:

1) We've got several different ideas on how to reduce barrel vibration, either a solid barrel or several types of different density materials as spacers.

2) Another thing is to get the most out of our cylinder. We have concluded that a shorter, and wider cylinder would give us more momentum, speed, and consistency, more or less, in our shots. SNAKE has used MS Paint expertly and come up with a compiled design of our ideas.

3) Again, SNAKE has used MS Paint and given us a great idea for a more consistent hop-up chamber that could be effectively used in a BASR, without any issue. We were contemplating and we were (I was at least) going to test the width and legnth of the hop-up nub [which for us is no longer much of a nub but more of a piece that is attached to a plate that acts in place of the original and standard nub(the piece that actually comes into contact with the bb)] to find the most effective combination of the two when it comes in contact with the bb.

4) This kind of goes along with the cylinder idea really, but we were still in the process of thinking of something to change and update on the piston, like air cushion or something that would help decrease vibrations that could throw the bb of the course of the other bbs.

5) Nobody has yet to respond, but I was thinking of actually serarating the shoulder stock from the reciever area of the stock. I'm wroking on the design at the moment and it is currently on my drafting table. I am using a UTG MK96 as my base and totally revamping it and separating pieces and parts where the vibrations would be most likely to eminate. It kind of resembles Accuracy International's AX 50 to an extent without the "All-Inclusive" RIS rails covering the entire barrel.

 

And guys if I've missed anything at all in there or have butchered something from my lack of understanding of an idea, please feel free to say something. But Sniperelite7, we still have a lot to accomplish. For one, we have to test these things that look wonderful on paper or in text, but might end up to not really be so great in the gun. We're doing this for the betterment of the sniping community, however, if you think that its a waste of time and effort, I do not criticize you, all I have to say is, while you have fun getting torn up by AEGs that have located you inside their limits, we will be enjoying a little laugh as we are able to snipe across the field where we cannot be touched, seen, heard, or fired upon because we spent time to perfect our sniper rifle, that without, we are nothing. And without us, it is nothing. Just saying.. And by the way, in posting this, I in no way meant to flame your post or you. I simply ask that you read and think before saying something. Thanks a bunch.

 

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sniperelite7, we really appreciate your wisdom. having regular reality check is always welcome.

 

let me make it clear though. anybody can correct me if im wrong. we are not trying to redesign the current BASRs for the purpose of shooting every random head that pops out on the field and/or engaging an army of AEG wielders upfront because we want to prove that we are the GODs on the battlefield. we are also not trying to get more accuracy from the rifle to pull out a head-shot-in-between-the-eyes move that many new airsoft snipers are still having wet dreams on.

 

I, for one, want this collaboration to push through to add more realism in battlefield engagements. I think you're misjudging our intention in this thread. we wanted the balance back and just wanted the sniper weapons we are using to simulate its real steel counterparts better.

 

Like I said before, not every airsoft snipers out there know how to play the role. but as far as Ive seen on the people who have posted on this thread, they know what they are talking about. they have an idea on how the role goes. they have recognized what needs to be changed in existing designs to make it better.

 

again, our rifles are just one of the many tools we can use to perform our duties on the battlefield. we just wanted it to be more reliable if the situation will ask for us to use it and take that one shot.

 

 

...now let us go back to topic gentlemen. :a-salute:

Edited by S n a k e™

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on subject of vibration, the biggest source of vibration is the spring. we must remove the spring in order to eliminate most of the vibration. My idea is to design a air spring, that uses compressed air. It will be a drop in upgrade, in which all you need to do is to through out the spring guide. The idea is to make a cylinder, the same dimension as the spring, and a inner piston, thats a bit smaller, that can fit inside the piston. the air spring would eliminate a lot of vibration. to give you a general idea:

 

 

http://airsoft-snipers.com/crosman-nitro-p...any-gamo-rifles

 

my second idea: spring BASR's are modeled after guns that chambers in 7.62NATO (vsr-10, modeled after the remington 700, which is chambered in 7.62NATO, Maruzen type 96, modeled after the AW L96, chambered in 7.62 NATO) As airsoft goes, there is really one major constraint, the dimensions of the real steals. we need them to be practical, and still realistic. Solution: make basr modeled after guns chambered in 30-06 and 338 Lapua Magnum. And we don't have to redesign the wheels here. The L115a1, looks just like a L96, but is chambered in 338 Lapua Magnum. The M24 main round is the 338 Lapua Magnum. to switch calibers, one would just have to remove the long action bolt, and replace it with a short action bolt. The longer cylinder=more compressed air and lighter bolt pull for equal FPS.

 

adjustable hop up idea: single piece CNCed steel, which special alignment clamp, and a screw to adjust the hop up.

 

on another note, I hope to see that all basr sooner or later will incorporate marui's AWS design. magazine in the right place please.

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im asking for the scanned diagram since it easier to understand it than looking at pictures of the trigger in Google. I wanted to see and understand how the BB is loaded on that configuration knowing the mag placement is in the same place as its RS counterpart. but nevermind, ill look for one myself.

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im asking for the scanned diagram since it easier to understand it than looking at pictures of the trigger in Google. I wanted to see and understand how the BB is loaded on that configuration knowing the mag placement is in the same place as its RS counterpart. but nevermind, ill look for one myself.

OHH lol no. the trigger and the loading ramp is completely seperate from each other. your best bet is to look at disassembly guides

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on subject of vibration, the biggest source of vibration is the spring. we must remove the spring in order to eliminate most of the vibration. My idea is to design a air spring, that uses compressed air. It will be a drop in upgrade, in which all you need to do is to through out the spring guide. The idea is to make a cylinder, the same dimension as the spring, and a inner piston, thats a bit smaller, that can fit inside the piston. the air spring would eliminate a lot of vibration. to give you a general idea:

 

 

http://airsoft-snipers.com/crosman-nitro-p...any-gamo-rifles

 

my second idea: spring BASR's are modeled after guns that chambers in 7.62NATO (vsr-10, modeled after the remington 700, which is chambered in 7.62NATO, Maruzen type 96, modeled after the AW L96, chambered in 7.62 NATO) As airsoft goes, there is really one major constraint, the dimensions of the real steals. we need them to be practical, and still realistic. Solution: make basr modeled after guns chambered in 30-06 and 338 Lapua Magnum. And we don't have to redesign the wheels here. The L115a1, looks just like a L96, but is chambered in 338 Lapua Magnum. The M24 main round is the 338 Lapua Magnum. to switch calibers, one would just have to remove the long action bolt, and replace it with a short action bolt. The longer cylinder=more compressed air and lighter bolt pull for equal FPS.

 

adjustable hop up idea: single piece CNCed steel, which special alignment clamp, and a screw to adjust the hop up.

 

on another note, I hope to see that all basr sooner or later will incorporate marui's AWS design. magazine in the right place please.

 

If removing the spring is so important why don't you guys just use a internal cold shot kit or an external hpa rig?

 

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If removing the spring is so important why don't you guys just use a internal cold shot kit or an external hpa rig?

cuz this thread is only on spring sniper rifles... hence "Rethinking The Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process"

 

although I do agree. I would take gas over spring anyday even though I own a vsr myself. gas has so much advantages over spring... so many.

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cuz this thread is only on spring sniper rifles... hence "Rethinking The Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process"

 

although I do agree. I would take gas over spring anyday even though I own a vsr myself. gas has so much advantages over spring... so many.

Well you were talking about removing the spring in your last post, so I was just throwing it out there for a simple resolution. Good luck guys! I'm free to help as always...

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<AT>sniperx2s--

 

"The only way this can be done, at least in my imagination, is scrapping the hop up, and in that place, we need rifled barrels/finned BB's, which ever method is more efficient."

 

-Stabilized projectiles will give you accuracy at the expense of range. An object of a certain mass, velocity, and ballistic coefficient will always go a certain distance. Rifling will eat up muzzle velocity, and fins will eat up terminal velocity. Considering added range is the goal, attention to homogenous bb construction and maximization of one of the three ballistic factors is really the only solution. In other words, quality bbs without voids, higher velocity, and/or a heavier bb are the only factors that attribute to range.

The hop up trades terminal velocity for added range. The drag-inducing back spin that causes the BB to float can be replaced with muzzle elevation but that will produce no added performance. If the hopup adjustment were replaced with a finer adjustment (worm gear/screw) it would be more stable and (obviously) capable of finer adjustment.

 

<AT>Chris R--

 

"...but if you ask me, I'd say give up on range. You just can't have a safe airsoft gun that can reach out much past 300'. However, if we really work on accuracy, really just push the issue, and come up with a tack driver, an airsoft gun that can just shoot tiny tiny groups, all day long, with no problem, then your effective range will double. "

 

-Spot on there. Accuracy lies in consistency. The harmonics and shock that crash through a spring-powered airsoft gun move everything around each time the trigger is pulled. If the inner barrel, outer barrel, nozzle, scope base, scope rings, or scope move the smallest amount, your point of aim and point of impact have changed. Attention to these problems is key to making an accurate (real) rifle as well. Stop this random movement and make the gun "vibration-proof" if you want accuracy. Repeatability begets repeatability.

 

<AT>sniperx2s--

 

"our game style is what sets us apart from AEG users. we rely on stealth. they rely on firepower. we make every shot count. they spray and pray. as long as your unseen, not even a 500ft capable AEG can take you out."

 

"very well said. while everything you said is true, we are still at a major disadvantage. "

 

-If the element of surprise can be extended past the first shot, a boltgunner can maintain superiority. An idea I have is the use of a muzzle brake. On an airsoft gun, recoil is a non-issue. However, brakes also reflect sound back to the driver instead of toward the target. A quiet bolt gun + good distance + a clean miss = a still unwary target = another chance to shoot. None of this, however, can happen without a solid foundation of applied fieldcraft.

 

"you see the ENTIRE bolt rotation, not just the handle."

 

-This is a function of mechanical interference, not a gas seal. The gas seal in a real firearm is created when the brass cartridge seals against the chamber wall for a split second until the bullet passes the muzzle and the pressure drops. In airsoft, a seamless cylinder and nozzle assembly and a good nozzle/barrel seal will accomplish that.

 

"ahh, the fun part. if we can make a super consistent rifle, it wouldnt be that hard to make a chart, or a program, that can determine where to shoot, depending on environmental variables. I have suggested having something like the advanced ballistics computer for airsoft, but then someone said that airsoft is too inconsistent to utilize it. However, if we do make a gun consistent enough, We can use it to our advantage. "

 

-In "real steel" precision shooting, "recording your dope" is a basic necessity. Your rifle is zeroed at a certain distance, then different ranges and their corresponding elevation changes (in Mils or MOAs depending on the scope knobs) are recorded in an easy-to-access format. Say for example, zero at 50 feet, and have your dope recorded at 60-200 feet in 20 foot increments. You lay down in position, determine your target's range, and adjust your scope according to your pre-determined elevation settings. Theoretically, your BB then hits where your crosshair is.

The next level is finding out what your BBs do in the wind and record that. If you can adjust your elevation for distance, and your windage for a certain wind speed and range, your hit chance goes up dramatically. If you change anything about your rifle, including your BBs, you need to redo your dope.

 

<AT>ZERO WOLF--

 

"The longer the BB is in flight, the more wind and other elements effect it. "

 

-I think when all is said and done, and everything is tried, BB weight will be the do-all performance enhancement. Heavier projectiles buck the wind better. Lighter projectiles get there sooner, giving the wind less time to alter its course. A .308 Win in a 100-yard match will do better with a light bullet. In a 1000-yard match, heavy is better. The path a .3g BB takes is akin to a 175gr .308 Win getting lobbed out 1500 yards. Therefore, an airsoft BB needs to emulate a heavy bullet.

 

<AT>Cheese Man--

 

"What really needs to change, as many have said, is the round that we fire."

 

-In the Napoleonic era, the British Baker Rifle was a carbine-length rifled flintlock that could hit a man out to 300 yards with a 62 cal. round cast-lead ball. The only difference between this projectile and an airsoft BB is weight. I'd even say the BB wins in the quality factor. Safe increase in BB weight will make a BB that can do all we want.

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Why would we need something that will only out range an AEG by 50-75 feet that is extremely accurate?

 

Do you really need an answer?

 

 

Well here ya go :D consider this an early xmas gift.....

 

If we are out in the field and I am in position watching my objective. I can see people moving around but only have a very small window to hit a certian person. If I am able to hit that person with one bb that is going to save me alot of headache. 1. The possibility of someone hearing the shot is nill. 2. The chance of them finding me ... again is nil. 3. Me being able to get out of the area and take another shot from a different position... very high. 4. The other team seeing one of there leaders take a shot to the head. very high.

 

So why would we not want a rifle that can do this?

 

Huh-huh-huh. Your still limited in range, and at the ranges your shooting at. Assuming you are like 95% of most airsoft snipers and don't use cover and concealment. Your still a liability when the firefight begins and the plastic starts flying. Especially when the engagement distances start to get close.

 

 

Hahaha. Yes! Woogie, that just made my day. Sniperelite7, don't question the power of the sniper. Haha. I'm trying to come up with something to say thats worth while, but man, Woogie you nailed that one. I love it. Again. Perfect answer, it totally made my day a whole lot better. :a-yesnod:

 

Lol what? Perfect in that my point totally blew over his head and that you seem to like to make lengthy posts about how great other members are.

 

Oh. And just another thing I think should be said, Sniperelite7, please don't flame the thread if you haven't even read the darn thing. One piece? Seriously? No. We were talking about the barrel. The gun is going to still be composed of many parts, like the barrel, reciever, stock, bolt, cylinder. Come on man. Before saying your not impressed, read exactly what it is that you think is such a bad idea, and then, after you've thought about the different possibilities that there really are and you still think it is so bad, you may respectfully say so. Just don't come out after reading a snippet of a post on a 3+ page thread and expect you have any honest clue as to what we are really talking about.

 

So, just to let you know what we are really even talking about, I'll give you a little update. There are about 7+ish people that are honestly trying to redefine what it mean to be an airsoft sniper. One who can effectively pull off 150+ yard shots while still maintaing accuracy and not having a worry in the world of having anybody know where the heck you are, and if they do, they are then pressed with the challenge of trying to figure out how the heck to hit a sniper that far away. So, what we have done, and are still effectively working on, is to create the ideal weapon system for a spring BASR.

 

I have been in this thread since the beginning, since you have not realized what I have been saying since before you guys went off on this wonderful tangent. I will reiterate at the bottom. Also bolded what I felt was a critical point in your statement.

 

sniperelite7, we really appreciate your wisdom. having regular reality check is always welcome.

 

let me make it clear though. anybody can correct me if im wrong. we are not trying to redesign the current BASRs for the purpose of shooting every random head that pops out on the field and/or engaging an army of AEG wielders upfront because we want to prove that we are the GODs on the battlefield. we are also not trying to get more accuracy from the rifle to pull out a head-shot-in-between-the-eyes move that many new airsoft snipers are still having wet dreams on.

 

I, for one, want this collaboration to push through to add more realism in battlefield engagements. I think you're misjudging our intention in this thread. we wanted the balance back and just wanted the sniper weapons we are using to simulate its real steel counterparts better.

Like I said before, not every airsoft snipers out there know how to play the role. but as far as Ive seen on the people who have posted on this thread, they know what they are talking about. they have an idea on how the role goes. they have recognized what needs to be changed in existing designs to make it better.

 

again, our rifles are just one of the many tools we can use to perform our duties on the battlefield. we just wanted it to be more reliable if the situation will ask for us to use it and take that one shot.

 

 

Snake I have highlighted in your post what I feel has been the whole point of this thread since the beginning. Congratulations Woggie, Pyle. You have missed the entire point of my posts.

 

You guys are starting on the wrong foot and indeed what I have been trying to point out has not even been considered! My point this whole time is that you guys have not once attempted to address the core of the problem. Range. I hear all this bull about how you guys want to balance the playing field. Bring back the superiority of bolt actions and other high talk nonsense. Well there it is. Aeg's have the same range. Or using some quick maneuvering can get into there effective range. You want to make sniper rifles superior, with real, tangible advantages ? Increase their effective range. Its not that hard to realize this concept and what directly affects range in our guns? The hopup.

 

There you have it gents. Nothing against your little project here, im all for it. Better and higher quality kit in airsoft is always a good thing. However if you think it will give you a major advantage over the status quo. When you consider the grander scheme of things. It won't. Where it counts I feel, is the effective range. Increase that, while using the average fps limits most fields place on snipers. Then you will find your "revolution" in sniping. Until then, keep watching Top Sniper 2. It actually is a great series. You might learn something.

Edited by sniperelite7

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sniperelite7-

You make good points. IMHO, range means nothing if you can't hit what you are aiming at. We know we can get the range with a heavy spring or dumping a ton of gas in one shot. The issue is hitting the target reliably. Which is why this discussion is pushing for increased consistency and accuracy. A bolt action only has one shot. We can't spray ten BB's pout in a shotgun pattern and assume one will hit the target. I know my real steel rifle will hit a target at 100 yrds if I do my part. I don't know my springer rifle will, no matter what I do. That's the part we are trying to change.

 

And everything that leads to better accuracy with BASR will lead to improved accuracy and consistency with AEG's. It's called an "Arms Race" :)

 

***

 

The discussion pertaining to shock and vibration has made me consider that the shock of the piston hitting the end of the cylinder is probably responsible for most of the random deviations in spring-and-piston airsoft guns, AEG's included.

 

Lots of people cut off the air brake in pursuit of speed, all kinds of barrel spacer ideas are thrown out to dampen shocks, etc. Seems counter-productive.

 

I'm thinking of a long and fat cylinder, short but strong spring, and an air brake. Don't try to use all the air in the cylinder. Make it big enough that you don't have to.

 

It seems to me that if the BB left the barrel before the piston hit the end of the cylinder, it wouldn't be affected by that shock.

Edited by 40oz

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It seems to me that if the BB left the barrel before the piston hit the end of the cylinder, it wouldn't be affected by that shock.

 

 

That is not just unlikely, but impossible. Vibrations going through something as dense as brass metal is almost 11,000 FPS (not to mention steel barrels at 20,000 FPS). You will NOT get the BB out of the barrel before the vibrations hit it. The only thing we can do is get the vibrations to be dampened and have less of an effect.

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sniperelite7-

You make good points. IMHO, range means nothing if you can't hit what you are aiming at.

 

Absolutely. Accuracy is the product of several things in an airsoft system. Airflow consistency, Hopup consistency, BB consistency, and a good quality barrel that is solidly mounted. Think about, however. Properly tuned sniper rifles already achieve the above. Spring sniper rifles can hit +/- 0-1 fps readings on the dime. HPA rigs when properly built and sealed can put out the same readings on a chrono all day.

 

Barrels, mounted with spacers are solid and already effectively dampen vibration. If you want to absolutely make a spring rifle not move when fired. Just make it heavier.

 

Hopups require alot of tuning as is. I'd personally love to see a company put out machined metal hopups with super high tolerances. The shape of the nubs these days also ensure the BB's is properly seated. Though it still often needs work.

 

BB's. The need for a proper quality heavyweight cannot be stressed enough.

 

 

We know we can get the range with a heavy spring or dumping a ton of gas in one shot.

 

Marinesgt, one of the finest airsoft tuner's for sniper rifles in the community has a vsr-10. Videos of him hitting the top of a small water bottle at 200feet. Each time. Easily. Accurate. He has also struck targets at 400 feet. Want to know why? His gun is shooting well passed the legal limit of any official field.

 

I'm not scared of high-fps guns. Run a 515 fps dmr myself. But alot of people are. If you can start a movement to raise the fps limits. Good on yah, I'll be cheering you on. Otherwise the necessity of an evolution of the hop/barrel system is necessary for increased range, so we can use the accuracy that is already attainable.

 

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That is not just unlikely, but impossible. Vibrations going through something as dense as brass metal is almost 11,000 FPS (not to mention steel barrels at 20,000 FPS). You will NOT get the BB out of the barrel before the vibrations hit it. The only thing we can do is get the vibrations to be dampened and have less of an effect.

 

My intent was for the BB to leave the barrel before the piston hit the end of the piston. Not for the piston to hit and the BB to then start moving somehow fast enough to beat those vibrations. At 500 fps, the BB exits the barrel just longer than 1/250th of a second (Time required to accelerate through 2 feet of barrel up to 500 fps. And BASR barrels are commonly shorter than 2 feet.). If we can slow the piston so it takes a hair longer than the BB to reach the cylinder end, that shock is a non-issue. The barel spacers are still neede to center and control barrel movement between shots, but aren't required to damp piston shock while the BB is in the barrel.

 

I'm not saying it's possible. But it would seem worth investigating - a long, fat cylinder with a spring that is shorter than the cylinder. So the piston's acceleration stops before it hits the cylinder end. Realistically, there is no reason cylinder pressures need to accelerate at the same rate throughout the piston travel. I think there is always going to be a trade-off between fps and accuracy. The goal would be to over-build the gun so you can give up significant fps and gain significantly consistent accurate shots out to say 300 feet.

 

Gas guns do solve that piston smack issue. I've got nothing against gas guns except buying gas and the way gas is affected by cooler weather. It might be the only way to achieve consistent accuracy, however. It just seems a spring bolt is an elegant and efficent design. That doesn't mean it is automatically the best, however :)

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if we use gas, all vibration will be eliminated. if we are to build a super consistent rifle, gas is the best base. and besides, gas sniper rifles are the only guns that can be "silenced"

 

You keep suggesting this, and the reason we aren't doing that is because of the title:

 

"Rethinking the Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process"

 

We all know gas has a lot more advantages over spring, but there is one advantage that spring rifles have over gas that we need; Winter.

 

If there is a reliable way to keep your mag warm during the winter, then please tell me. I will get a gas rifle immediately in that case.

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You keep suggesting this, and the reason we aren't doing that is because of the title:

 

"Rethinking the Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process"

 

We all know gas has a lot more advantages over spring, but there is one advantage that spring rifles have over gas that we need; Winter.

 

If there is a reliable way to keep your mag warm during the winter, then please tell me. I will get a gas rifle immediately in that case.

 

HPA. All-weather and superior to springs. But your right. this is the spring sniper rifle thread. Though if we all switched to gas that would solve our problems with improving the springssniper rifle :P

Edited by sniperelite7

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Absolutely. Accuracy is the product of several things in an airsoft system. Airflow consistency, Hopup consistency, BB consistency, and a good quality barrel that is solidly mounted. Think about, however. Properly tuned sniper rifles already achieve the above. Spring sniper rifles can hit +/- 0-1 fps readings on the dime. HPA rigs when properly built and sealed can put out the same readings on a chrono all day.

 

Barrels, mounted with spacers are solid and already effectively dampen vibration. If you want to absolutely make a spring rifle not move when fired. Just make it heavier.

 

Hopups require alot of tuning as is. I'd personally love to see a company put out machined metal hopups with super high tolerances. The shape of the nubs these days also ensure the BB's is properly seated. Though it still often needs work.

 

BB's. The need for a proper quality heavyweight cannot be stressed enough.

 

 

 

 

Marinesgt, one of the finest airsoft tuner's for sniper rifles in the community has a vsr-10. Videos of him hitting the top of a small water bottle at 200feet. Each time. Easily. Accurate. He has also struck targets at 400 feet. Want to know why? His gun is shooting well passed the legal limit of any official field.

 

I'm not scared of high-fps guns. Run a 515 fps dmr myself. But alot of people are. If you can start a movement to raise the fps limits. Good on yah, I'll be cheering you on. Otherwise the necessity of an evolution of the hop/barrel system is necessary for increased range, so we can use the accuracy that is already attainable.

LOL my field runs 550 FPS with .25's.. its crazy high... I wonder how he tuned his vsr-10 to be so accurate

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I have been trying to figure a way to put a "Gas Ram Piston" into a sniper rifle here for a while. I have used a few pellet rifles that have them inside, and they are great. The one draw back is that the ammount of force needed to draw the piston back can be quite large.

 

Snipe7...

 

You really shouldn't bunch everyone on these forums with the Newbies that just want to hide all day and don't know what they are doing. Because all that does is make you sound like a fool ;) You should probably do a little bit of research and find out what people are using and doing before making a blanket statement like the one you made above.

 

I have personally used BASR that were only putting out 400 fps, but I was able to get extremely accurate shot placement. So the rifle, along with my ghillie, and my coms I was able to be a very effective tool for my team. I have been not even an arms length away from people durring this same game, and that isn't a one time thing. I was able to get many knife kills on the other teams due to the fact that they didn't know where I was through out the game. If a sniper knows what he is doing then all is fine. Playing this role doesn't mean that when you see a group of 20 AEG'ers coming at you that you try to start picking them off. If you can't get one or two shots off with out getting hosed, just stay in your cover and let them pass. Then see if you can figure who the one is in charge, and see if you can take him out, if possible. If not, just let them go and move on.

 

Not all places are good with an HPA rig.... Up here in my area they suck. I had a few gas rifles that had nice regs on them and they were still shooting all over the place. And yes everything was installed propperly and was running right. When you play in games where the temp can get down to -20 - -30 degrees, it isn't always the answer. I have a few friends that play in other climates and it does the same thing to them. But in certian areas yeah I will agree that HPA can be a great thing, but in others not so much. It all depends on where you are and what envrioment you are playing in.

 

 

I still think that we would be able to make something along the lines of what we are talking about. It will just take a bit of time, money, and resources. Just need to start of small and work from there. And the only real way to get something like this going is to just start on it.

Edited by woogie_man

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You really shouldn't bunch everyone on these forums with the Newbies that just want to hide all day and don't know what they are doing. Because all that does is make you sound like a fool ;) You should probably do a little bit of research and find out what people are using and doing before making a blanket statement like the one you made above.

 

 

I don't, and have never made such a claim that every person who walks into this forum is a kid with a skewed vision of what snipers actually do. Though you have to admit there is quite a bit of players that seem to want to be a sniper. I also respect the skill that goes into the usage of a bolt actions and make the distinction between those who have it and those who don't.

 

 

 

I have personally used BASR that were only putting out 400 fps, but I was able to get extremely accurate shot placement. So the rifle, along with my ghillie, and my coms I was able to be a very effective tool for my team. I have been not even an arms length away from people during this same game, and that isn't a one time thing. I was able to get many knife kills on the other teams due to the fact that they didn't know where I was through out the game. If a sniper knows what he is doing then all is fine. Playing this role doesn't mean that when you see a group of 20 AEG'ers coming at you that you try to start picking them off. If you can't get one or two shots off with out getting hosed, just stay in your cover and let them pass. Then see if you can figure who the one is in charge, and see if you can take him out, if possible. If not, just let them go and move on.

 

I'm glad you play the role of the sniper properly. Then alot of my posts are not directed at you.

 

Not all places are good with an HPA rig.... Up here in my area they suck. I had a few gas rifles that had nice regs on them and they were still shooting all over the place. And yes everything was installed propperly and was running right. When you play in games where the temp can get down to -20 - -30 degrees, it isn't always the answer. I have a few friends that play in other climates and it does the same thing to them. But in certian areas yeah I will agree that HPA can be a great thing, but in others not so much. It all depends on where you are and what envrioment you are playing in.

 

High Pressure Air is unaffected by weather. It isn't a gas and thus is not subject to any complications due too temperature. AEG's suffer consistency problems in the cold as do springers and anything else I assume with rubber in them. The issue being that the o-rings are not as flexible and cannot form a good seal because of the cold. Thats what I've read in my own searching on the topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Sniperelite7,

Ok. This kinda needs to come to an end. Really. This thread is no longer becoming enjoyable and informative and is WAY off topic. Ok. Great. Wonderful. We all know that an HPA rig would be great and in most cases better than your typical spring rifle. But if you want to continue talking about how they are better. Please, open your own thread and please, stop flaming our ideas with HPA talk and range talk. We are perfectly aware of what we are talking about. If you haven't read ANY pf my posts, please do so. Because, I have been talking about accuracy. Would range be better? Of course it would. I don't think that you realize, what we have been trying to do is to get our shot to land exactly at the point that we intend it to. Point, why I liked Woogie's comment about you trashing our talk about having an accurate rifle.

 

And again. You consider us all kids that are just "Want-to-be" Snipers. You need to stop assuming so much. If you haven't realized, it makes an ":censored2:-" out of "u-" and "me." We know that infantry men that carry full automatic weapons can easily out gun a single sniper. That is why we only take people out, when we have a good chance. Yes, I will agree, there are those who do shoot at everything that crosses their scope and thus, are found, and easily flushed out. But come on. Everyone on here has proven that they do know what they are talking about and deserve respect, no matter if theyre a teenager, 20, 30, 40, or older. Who cares if they have some insight. Ideas aren't restricted to the elders and sometimes, the younger are the ones who have a lot of the great ideas. I sometimes wish I still had some of the ideas that the "kids" in the sport have. My point is, don't flame the post because one or two people had an idea and were brave enough to speak their mind. Oh, and yes, you have made the point that we don't know what we're doing and are "like 95% of all other snipers and don't use cover and concealmant." Yes. That would be called assuming man.

 

And ok. yes you have highlighted a point that I will gladly revise for you. I would SSSOOO much rather be able to get a 1" MOA at 50 yrds and get a confirmed hit on a SINGLE target, that only be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 150+ yrds. I want accuracy. Yes, range would be wonderful, I agree, but I am not willing to risk the safety of my fellow airsofters enough as to jack up the fps limits. I degraded my spring after I saw that it became embedded under one guys skin at 555 fps. I want to be fun, not be hurtful. I want to instill fear of me for those who get hit by me, but I do not want to instill fear through pain. Im sorry. Its not right to me. I am sorry, but you cannot tell me that an AEG can make a 1" MOA at 50 yrds, let alone, the range my gun is already pulling, 100 yrds. I love Neotyguy's signature. Please read it. It puts thing into perspective.

 

In my opinion, range is simply a perk that is nice to have, but still means nothing to me, if I can't hit what I'm shooting at. That is why I have been going back and forth with many other dedicated people to improving the effect of vibrations. I want a gun that can hit a small target at 100 yrds. I would love a gun that could hit 150, as long as I didn't have to trade a cm of accuracy. If I had the choice of maximum range and max power to achieve accuracy or superior accuracy and minimal range, I would choose the latter everyday bar none. If you want to go rig up an HPA to some ungodly power and get great accuracy and range at the expense of safety and pain, by all means, be my guest. I simply don't know of anybody that would want to play against in essence, an airgun that will lodge bbs in their skin because you've jacked up the fps. I like the fps limits right where they are and don't plan on changing them anytime soon.

 

And another thing! Please do not attack me directly or anybody else on this forum, as you have already several times. It is simply uncalled for. Yes, I do like to make lengthy posts about how great the people on this forum are. Is there anything wrong with wanting to compliment and make people feel good? If there is, I must have been raised wrong, because at no time was is acceptable to myself just to not compliment people when they truly deserve it. I think that these people that try to make a difference in our community are great people worthy of my resepct, so I shall continue to make that aparent. and don't try to deny that you said this: "Lol what? Perfect in that my point totally blew over his head and that you seem to like to make lengthy posts about how great other members are." Dude, seriously, we get your point. You want range superior to that of an AEG as you think that AEGs dominate the field when it comes to range. You also don't care how high you rack up the fps. We understand your point Sniperelite7. If I don't, then please tell us what it is. But I know that again, you missed OUR point to begin with. We want accuracy and if it means hurting other players with huge amounts of power to get range, forget it. If range comes along with accuracy through our tests and things. All the better.

 

And yes. We want our rifles to be more like their RSCs but we simply don't want to hurt people to get there. Thats the reason I have simply settled for less range and a very large advantage in accuracy. An AEG can't touch 1"MOA at 75-100 yrds. No way unless you have dumped an insane amount of money into it. And again. You ASSUME that if we even fire a shot that we are going to be found, spotted, and flushed out. Thats called being a SNIPER in the first place. I personally am well aware of what it takes in the art of fieldcraft to be left unseen and nonexistent. You assume that we cannot take a shot without being taken out ourselves. Another part of being a sniper is moving after 1-3 shots so we DON'T get found and flushed out. If I am within an AEG's range, so what if they are continuing to be hit from different directions from somebody that they can't see. Its just how to play the role right.

 

SO, again, back on topic.

 

 

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I have been trying to figure a way to put a "Gas Ram Piston" into a sniper rifle here for a while. I have used a few pellet rifles that have them inside, and they are great. The one draw back is that the ammount of force needed to draw the piston back can be quite large.

 

the force on a gas ram piston wouldnt it be that great. take the remington nitro piston for example, same FPS, lower cocking force and lower vibration. We don't need a "gas ram piston" what we need is a gas ram spring. it should fit inside the piston we are already using, following similar dimensions as the normal springs. all we need is to scrap the spring guide.... although the low volume of compressible air inside the ram would be a problem...

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Jason, the other differnce is that the muzzle velocity of the guns back then, as they were guns, was far higher than what we can safely achieve out of our airsoft guns today. The issue that we must face is that we have to stay under 550 feet per second, and still increase effective range and accuracy.

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Let me reorganize this thread into what we need to start discussing for working on the BASR's accuracy:

 

1. Vibrations

2. Hop-up consistency

3. FPS consistency

 

We had a few ideas for vibrations:

 

- Wider, shorter piston cylinder and different cylinder head styles.

- Full length multi-material barrel spacers

- One-piece barrel

 

We also had that great idea for using fixed plates for hop-up consistency.

 

We didn't talk very much about FPS consistency, because that is pretty good as it is, but I think it was Snake who was talking about a wider and thicker spring with some sort of new spring guide?

 

Let's try and put together some new ideas, make our current ideas better, and also try to put some of these ideas into testing.

 

 

Consistency > Accuracy > Range > FPS in a BASR.

 

Unless it consistently misses... XD

Edited by Neotyguy40

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yep, thats right. but I designed the thicker spring so it would minimize the bending when we cycle the bolt since the spring guide will also be shorter. Im thinking maybe we could get away with the current size of the cylinder and piston if we'll use a thicker spring and a bit heavier/denser material for the piston.

 

not really that sure. just sharing some ideas since if we'll make the cylinder and piston bigger, we would need to redesign the receiver and stock as well...

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if we'll make the cylinder and piston bigger, we would need to redesign the receiver and stock as well...

 

Yea, let's try and stay away from that route.

 

Here is a question, could we use half-strength springs instead of one strong thick one? That would keep the air pressure the same (same FPS), while also keeping the consistency as good like your wider spring design. I'm not sure how this would work out, but I just think it would be easier to use two springs that are already in the market than a new custom spring.

 

I'm not sure what the side effects would be, so please nitpick this.

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On the topic of a shorter and wider cylinder:

 

I did some quick calculations on the volume of a standard UTG MK96 cylinder to find out how much shorter it would make a cylinder it we only increased the diameter by a 1/4". I was very impressed. For the same volume of the ~9" UTG Mk96 cylinder which has a 3/4" diameter, we would get about a 4" reduction of the cylinder length for just adding a single 1/4" to the diameter. Check my math if I'm wrong, but that still looks very realistic and I think that it would make our performance a lot better. Instead of having a very quick "slam" of the piston it would be a lot more controlled and forceful since it would be forcing out the same volume of air in a much more deliberate motion that the quick and forceful long and skinny cylinders. I kind of got the impression that it'd be like comparing the momentum of a ferrari and a semi. Which has the most momentum when going the same speed? Haha. If I'm wrong in thinking that, just say so. But thats kind of how I think about it myself anyways.

 

And ya. I forgot about the spring thing that SNAKE brought up. SNAKE if you could give us some more info on what you were thinking there, I think it'd be great. I really think that the biggest difference in our performance is going to come from our cylinder and whats inside of it.. So please, anybody with any ideas, let them be known.

 

Also, SNAKE, since Neotyguy brought it back to my attention (thanks by the way. Haha.), is there anything new with your hop-up design? I'd like to know anything new with that.. I really like that idea with the interchangeable plates. I think that we need a more locked-in abd unmovable hop-up design and that fits the ticket in my mind. It was real simple and looked affective. But we do need to visist the amount of time that the bb is in contact with the nub, how long an/ or wide the nub should be. I think that the longer the nub is, the more affect it will have on the bb and the longer that it could travel and the more consistent it would be since it would have more time to correct and issues feeding wise and force vibrations wise from the slam of the piston. I think it could make it more stable and less amp to take on to the vibrations if it was being forced and pinched downward during that time the vibrations are strongest throughout the gun. If I'm making any sense. Any input would be great. We really, I think, just need to test different lengths and widths to see what works best.. I don't know if theres really a wealth of knowledge on that front out there. Haha.

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Snipe7

 

Hey no harm done man.... I know what you mean. So no harm no foul.

 

I am very familiar to how HPA rigs work, heck I use them in a few of my air rifles that I hunt with. And even thought the gas is inert there are still parts inside the rifle that will ruin that. When it gets really cold your bucking will being to stiffen up and will throw off your shots. I have also blown many an o-ring due to cold weather. So yes while HPA is great for the FPS constant... there are other parts in a rifle that are affected with the temp. Thus why nobody up in my area will use them.

 

 

 

A gas ram doesn't have a spring in it. A gas ram is like that of the shocks, or is it the struts, on your car. It is basically a cylinder filled with nitrogen, and a piston compresses it. When the trigger is pulled the nitrogen will "depressurize" so to say, and expell the piston forward. The one down fall with this type of system, atleast in pellet rifles, is that the recoil can be quite large and will destroy a non air gun rated scope really quick. Though some of these systems are spitting out a 28 grain .22 cal pellet at 800-900 fps.

 

Now we wouldn't need anything near this fast. So the problem will then come from trying to find a system that will get us the fps that we need. And once you have the sytem there really isn't anyway to adjust the fps of the system. One of the upsides, is that it will give an extremely consistant fps time after time.

 

 

Private...

 

I was thinking about that for a while. Now when you are saying .25" are you talking to each side? or total, so .125" each side?

And think about it, if we can get everything smaller, we could have everything in the propper spot.

I have also been looking at trying to get a system like an AEG uses. The same style of piston and what not. The one thing I have been trying to figure is how to draw the piston back while still allowing a bb to load.

Edited by woogie_man

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I actually may be able to make that hop-up design, since I have access to a 3d printer. Of course, the metal plates would need to be ABS plastic (3d printer = no metal).

 

Could anyone create a CAD (preferably Inventor) file for the hop-up design and 2-3 different plate styles? If so, I may be able to test it (although I possible may not be able to.).

 

If it works out better than the stock hop-up, then I will see if I could get my machinist friend to help out.

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AS I've posted earlier, Im working already on a design for a new cylinder/reciever/ and stock. It resembles Accuracy International's AX 50. I'm basing it off that rifle for a couple reasons: 1. Definetly the most important in my opinion. Haha. I think its the prettiest rifle ever designed. 2. The stock-reciever weld is very minimul, reducing the amount of vibrations that could potentionally travel back that way 3. Its got a great area around the reciever that is easily played with and moved around, fitting whatever needs I have to fit certain things (like a new reciever ad barrel.) 4. The area in front of the mag-well is relatively short allowing the barrel to dissapate its own vibrations without eminating and handing them off back to the stock as well.

 

I've already started work on a new cylinder design, and honestly it wouldn't be that hard to modify our pistons with some diferent O-rings and some faucet-kit parts to fit the new diameter. Yes, the new reciever would be a serious pain, but not very hard to re-design and manufacture. Actually, since its just a junction point, it could probably be made from a hard-wood as a prototype.. I think I'll just have to give it a whirl. I'll upload some diagrams and drawings as soon as there more complete and understandable. I kind of play it by ear and design and build and test all at once. Haha

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I am selling both of my rifles right now, so with that and the money that I have tucked away, I am getting another lathe. So I can mill up some parts if needed.

 

Was thinking of using a basic simple square bar and then milling a nice hole in it for the piston. Can make them to a very tight tollerence. And to make everything flow a lot better, getting some small ball berrings and have them set inside of the receiver.

 

 

With the inner barrel vibrations, have been looking at that since it was mentioned. Why not look at it like people do over in the real steel side of things? Alot of shooters will actually try to tune there barrels, much like a tuning fork. That way the barrel will act the same way every shot. Why not look at doing something like this for our airsoft?

Edited by woogie_man

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