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Tux

Rethinking The Spring Sniper Rifle Building Process

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Ya Woogie. I'm not sure the circumference, but I simply measured the diameter of the cylinder and just added a 1/4" to that. So, I guess my answer would be to be expanding every point on the cylinder an additional 1/8" away from the center. So ya. 0.125 on each side. If that makes it clearer.

And ya. I completely agree. I was thinking about adding an additional 1/8" or even adding another 1/4" to the diameter. so making it 1/2" wider..I almost think that'd be too much though and would make the bolt too short. And I think if we just use a shorter spring, piston, and guide that it'll work just like a normal spring rifle. Just with the loading point moved back. What do you mean though with the AEG thing? Just like trying to use their parts in our design or what? I'm just a little confused with that. Thanks. Sorry for any confusion that you had with my idea. I guess I didn't really clarify.

Edited by Private Pyle

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No problem...

 

 

Ok look at an AEG gear box. Doesn't matter if it is 310fps or 700fps. They all have the same basic design. What I was thinking is using something like they have.

 

Have an "outter shell" that will contain the cylinder, piston, spring, and spring guide.

The bolt handle will be able to move the piston back about the same distance an AEG piston moves.

The spring would be pre-loaded by around 35-40%, to cut down on the total length.

You can have a spring that will push the cylinder back a little bit, to allow a bb to load.

 

With this type of build you should be able to use an M4 style hop chamber, and also be able to have your mag in the correct place.

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Haha. This is fun. By the time I have posted, its already outdated. Haha. Love it.

And Woogie, Thats great! You think you could help me out with some parts like a reciever and things to start testing out if I supplied the design, material and shipping and anything else?

 

I think that we should start to test different things that we've discussed and start comparing and combining results for different parts and mechinisms. Like Woogie and I could work out a new cylinder design and Snake and Neotyguy could come up with their hop-up design and things? Just a suggestion.

 

Man! This is just getting better and better to me. Thank you all again by the way. I just have to compliment you all. This is the best thread in my opinion for us and our community. Loving it guys, all of you, anybody that has contributed even a single post or idea. Great work. It really is.

 

Oh. And just another thing that I just thought of. Were we just going to keep the trigger mechinism the same? I honestly don't see reason to change on that front. Just thought I'd bring it up. Just keep it like a VSR-10 or Type96 compatible? Seeing as theyre the most common guns out there for airsoft sniping.

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I was thinking about that for the trigger mech. As long as it works, no reason to remake it.

 

I have been drawing things for the past month or so.

 

And as soon as I get my lathe she is going to start turning out some stuff.

 

I already have a place to get some really cheap, but nice, Carbon fiber tubes. So that will be taken care of.

 

 

Hey Pyle, have you ever seen or used a ProWin gearbox?

Have also been trying to find a way to make a reciever/hop chamber the way they do. With one piece. That will greatly take away any chance of air loss in the system.

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Okay here is something that has been brewing in my head for awhile ...

 

post-55210-1292814055_thumb.png

 

Point 1 is where the BB enters the system

Point 2 The cylinder head actually goes over the entry point not into it. You can then use o-rings on the insert piece to seal it.

Point 3 is the adjustment point it is a small plate that has a metal nub the that pushes straight down not at an angle so it would be very precise. (aka Noobie's TDC version 2)

 

The entire chamber is made so that the only the entry of the inner barrel, exit of the inner barrel, and the screw hole are open. If you made the two haves have a joint that was set one inside the other and had a gasket and double o-ringed you would have an air tight chamber. Plus being nearly solid it would be extremely stable.

 

You would need to design a longer rubber sleeve without a nub but hey Noobie has already done that so that it could be o-ring on either side of the opening. This also means the opening would be further down the barrel. Now make all of that to fit dead tight in the outer barrel or maybe with a silicone sleeve around it to limit vibration ,,,

 

Basically an air tight and very stable hop up that would help compression, limit vibration, and increase accuracy .....

 

excuse the crude drawing I never took drafting in school...

Edited by sounguru

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Ok. I'm going to apologize in advance as I have no massive knowledge of how AEG gearboxes function besides the basics. So, my thing here is, ya the mag will be in the correct place, but how will the reciever fall into place here to keep the realism of the gun and its look intact? I was thinking just a shorter version of what is already existent and just start using like AEG springs. But what do you mean by being pre-loaded? Just like already compressed inside the cylinder?

 

Sounds good to me. Do you think though if I paid for shipping and threw some labor in there for you, would turn me out some pieces based on my designs? It'd really be just simple things (at least I think theyre simple. I don't have any actual experience machining or tinkering with a laith) like a reciever and a piston.. I'm willing to pay you for anything that you need to turn them out.

 

And to be completely honest with you. I had never heard of a ProWin gearbox before your post. But I did some quick 5 minute research on it. It looks like it could be incorporated several ways.. It'd be a very interesting idea to tamper with on the hop-up. I'll have to really think about a design for the hop-up incorporating a one-piece idea. I think itd be great. It'd be somewhat difficult though I'm thinking.. A lot of finer work and tinkering to get whole parts together (but again, I have no experience so I wouldn't really know). But honestly I love the idea! Great way to cut down on air loss in the seal when thinking about the reciever, seeing as there are no seals to worry about. Haha. Great concept actually. Very simple ideaology and the simpler, the better and the less problem-prone things are.

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I'm all for anything that will limit vibrations. And that is so simple, it just has to work. Theres only the one thing that I'd be worried about and that'd be the cylinder slipping over the entry point.. The whole purpose of the cylinder going inside the entry point in your standard airsoft gun, AEG or spring, is to load the bb into the firing chamber. Without it, you are subject to double-feeds and jamming.. Which I'm sure nobodies too fond of. But if we could get around that and have this airtight seal that your talking about and keep bbs from going into the firing chamber whenever, I think it'll work. I think that we could incorporate that flat-nub into Snake's design too. Again. Another great idea. Just how could we go about loading the bbs if the cylinder isn't going to be doing it?

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Ya.. I was thinking the same thing Woogie. Thatd be a lot of lot air. But I don't think it'd be too hard to have the cylinder head to seal it off like all the others. Would it? Maybe just an extension of the nozzle or having the hop-up unit physically moved back to where it is sealed off. But then, I guess you're back to your normal hop-up anyways... I don't know. But hey, Sounguru, if you can come up with a simple way of solving those two issues, I'd love to hear about it. I like your idea.

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What about making the cylinder head longer so it slips past the point where the BB enters , but does not go into the chamber. Then instead of it entering a rubber sleeve it butts up tight against a seal . If that makes sense.

 

I will try and do up a drawing later and take a picture of a VSR hop up and point out all the flaws I see.

Edited by sounguru

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its nice to know that you guys are very talented. not only can you contribute ideas but you can also design and machine the parts we will change. hope I have the same skill as you guys in machining.

 

anyway, im just a bit busy at work today, ill try to make a design of the new hopup nub design you guys wanted together with the cylinder and internals.

 

<AT>sounguru

it would be nice if you can post a pic of the vsr hopup and its flaws so we can work on it.

 

again, great job guys.

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Ok. This kinda needs to come to an end. Really. This thread is no longer becoming enjoyable and informative and is WAY off topic. Ok. Great. Wonderful. We all know that an HPA rig would be great and in most cases better than your typical spring rifle. But if you want to continue talking about how they are better. Please, open your own thread and please, stop flaming our ideas with HPA talk and range talk.

 

I was merely addressing somethings people wanted to know about HPA when it came up in this thread and then acknowledged that this was however the spring sniper rifle thread.

 

Oh, and yes, you have made the point that we don't know what we're doing and are "like 95% of all other snipers and don't use cover and concealmant." Yes. That would be called assuming man.

 

My assumption would probably hold true. But your right it likely is incorrect, provided you and the how many other active members in this thread are the majority of sniper's in the whole airsoft community. What I'm saying is that, short of you and the couple of leet dudes here. There is a majority of players. Who do not use a sniper rifle the way it was meant to be used.

 

I would SSSOOO much rather be able to get a 1" MOA at 50 yrds and get a confirmed hit on a SINGLE target, that only be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 150+ yrds. I want accuracy. Yes, range would be wonderful, I agree, but I am not willing to risk the safety of my fellow airsofters enough as to jack up the fps limits. I degraded my spring after I saw that it became embedded under one guys skin at 555 fps. I want to be fun, not be hurtful. I want to instill fear of me for those who get hit by me, but I do not want to instill fear through pain. Im sorry. Its not right to me. I am sorry, but you cannot tell me that an AEG can make a 1" MOA at 50 yrds, let alone, the range my gun is already pulling, 100 yrds.

 

So your assuming that I when I say effective range, I mean broad side of the barn effective and not, straight flat predictable trajectory, effective? Also where the hell was your medium engagement distance when that BB was embedded in that guy's skin? Next up, if you'd pay attention you'd know I've been speaking of an alternative way to increase distance without raising the fps limits. Lastly, I never said anything about an aeg getting 1 moa at 50 yards. Though it would certainly be possible.

 

I like the fps limits right where they are and don't plan on changing them anytime soon.

 

Yay, we agree.

 

And another thing! Please do not attack me directly or anybody else on this forum, as you have already several times. It is simply uncalled for.

 

Who have I attacked? If by attack you mean criticize with constructive alternatives then yes. yes I have. I also make it a point to follow the forum rules in regards to such matters.

 

Dude, seriously, we get your point. You want range superior to that of an AEG as you think that AEGs dominate the field when it comes to range. You also don't care how high you rack up the fps. We understand your point Sniperelite7. If I don't, then please tell us what it is. But I know that again, you missed OUR point to begin with. We want accuracy and if it means hurting other players with huge amounts of power to get range, forget it. If range comes along with accuracy through our tests and things. All the better.

 

Never said I want AEG's to have superior range. I have however said that raising the maximum effective distance for all airsoft guns would really revolutionize the sport. Again, more proof that you merely glaze through my posts. I never said I wanted more power, though I coudn't care as long as meds are followed, Though, the hopup designs I've seen truly seem to raise the the effective distance without the need to raise the power.

 

Don't get the feeling that I'm standing in the way of your precious "revolution". I'm not, my posts are not blocking yours, nor are they stopping you from carrying out your ideas. I am however a critical person, and enjoy finding whats wrong with an idea. I've been saying that consistency is already quite acceptable and that range is what needs increasing. How? through superior hopup. Thats it, no insane power levels, no magical monkeys that fly out your :censored2: and carry the BB at unsafe speeds. That is a point of contention I wouldn't mind discussing. Though, in replying to me you always seem to miss that primary message and instead focus on character flaws and supposed bias.

 

Carry on gents, any new innovation is good innovation.

 

 

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Okay here are the flaws I see in the VSR hop up design...

 

post-55210-1292871883_thumb.jpg

 

Here is an updated drawing of my idea...

 

post-55210-1292873028_thumb.jpg

 

Basically you do away with magazines all together to add more stability and allow you to move the actual load chamber outside of the hop up unit removing that point of air leakage. Plus if you build it right the load chamber and tube would be air tight too ....

 

By making the Hop Up chamber 2 solid pieces that clam shell together and are sealed with a counter sunk gasket you would remove all the air leakage there too. Now also since the nub would travel up and down not at an angle it should in theory give you a more accurate adjustment and a better hop.

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Looks interesting, I like the use of noobies top down conversion for the hop arm. Though I question the need to modify the magazines. That area is not responsible for airleaks unless your airnozzle is not sealing properly against your bucking.

 

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Looks interesting, I like the use of noobies top down conversion for the hop arm. Though I question the need to modify the magazines. That area is not responsible for airleaks unless your airnozzle is not sealing properly against your bucking.

 

Correct, plus most people have a good 2-4 magazines. We would need to replace a WHOLE bunch of them...

 

So instead of using a screw to put pressure on the hop-up, we are going to try different styled plates?

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Correct, plus most people have a good 2-4 magazines. We would need to replace a WHOLE bunch of them...

 

So instead of using a screw to put pressure on the hop-up, we are going to try different styled plates?

 

Different styled plates would be hard to implement. While im open to the idea. I see no advantage over an adjustable tdc system that has been fitted with a tight tolerance.

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Not a bad concept there soung, looks alot like the desgin from the Ares WA2000..... Though it could honestly be made with a solid piece of material.

 

I have thought about trying the tube to normal mag, in the probber position. Kind of like the TM L96 is, but you don't have an arm that pushes the rounds though the tube, but the spring follower in the mag.

 

 

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Different styled plates would be hard to implement. While im open to the idea. I see no advantage over an adjustable tdc system that has been fitted with a tight tolerance.

 

I can see three immediate ones:

 

1. Better consistency due to no moving parts.

2. Don't need to drill your outer barrel.

3. Less parts means it could be easier and cheaper to manufacture.

 

Now I never used a TDC hop-up, but from what I can tell it gets it's advantage from less moving parts. In my perspective, since the plates wouldn't move at all, then it would be an advantage over it.

 

EDIT: Can anyone send me a CAD file for the stock hop-up? Or some drawings? I'd like to get some precise measurements before I send it over to the 3d printer.

Edited by Neotyguy40

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I like sounguru's diagram of that hopup. with sounguru's permission, can I try to incorporate the positive points on my own design?

 

also, just some question;

 

-how will the BB travel from the magazine through the feed tube and on to the hopup?

-what material(s) are we going to use on that air-tight seal?

-I know this might sound dumb but, why would we need an O-ring at the end on the inner barrel? is that going to be used to center the inner barrel to the outer barrel? cause I don't think there will be an air leak there even if we use a ported inner barrel.

 

thanks in advance...

 

 

 

Edited by S n a k e™

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I can see three immediate ones:

 

1. Better consistency due to no moving parts.

2. Don't need to drill your outer barrel.

3. Less parts means it could be easier and cheaper to manufacture.

 

Yet if the chamber was machined too very high tolerances...? Since everyone here is keen on building a no-expense-spared sniper rifle. A hop chamber of high quality and tolerance wouldn't be out of the question.

 

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I can see three immediate ones:

 

1. Better consistency due to no moving parts.

2. Don't need to drill your outer barrel.

3. Less parts means it could be easier and cheaper to manufacture.

 

Now I never used a TDC hop-up, but from what I can tell it gets it's advantage from less moving parts. In my perspective, since the plates wouldn't move at all, then it would be an advantage over it.

 

EDIT: Can anyone send me a CAD file for the stock hop-up? Or some drawings? I'd like to get some precise measurements before I send it over to the 3d printer.

 

Actually the plate does move but that and the screw is it see comment below about what I forgot in the drawing.

 

I like sounguru's diagram of that hopup. with sounguru's permission, can I try to incorporate the positive points on my own design?

 

also, just some question;

 

-how will the BB travel from the magazine through the feed tube and on to the hopup?

-what material(s) are we going to use on that air-tight seal?

-I know this might sound dumb but, why would we need an O-ring at the end on the inner barrel? is that going to be used to center the inner barrel to the outer barrel? cause I don't think there will be an air leak there even if we use a ported inner barrel.

 

thanks in advance...

 

Sure go ahead....

 

-Take the top of a VSR mag and the same system that is already present in the hop up chamber and just move it to it's own housing. The tube would have a spring with a nub that would push the BB forward until all were used. You might even be able to just make a housing and still use VSR mags.

-I would use some form of rubber that the cylinder would have to push up against. (not an expert on rubbers and that is the one point I'm still not sure about doing.)

-O rings on the bucking act as anti blow by but the one on the end of the barrel are more for centering and to accommodate different sized diameter inner barrels.

 

On a side note the thing about Noobies hop up is that the arm is still anchored at the rear so as pressure is applied the arm still moves at an angle downward not directly down. If you made the plate that my nub is on (which sits in a channel so it can float up and down) to where it could hold a standard nub then people could swap it out to what ever the prefer. I would prefer an all metal SCS style nub that is actual part of the plate so no slipping or misalignment in any way.

 

Snake I now have to do a drawing of that plate area because there are 2 little springs in there I forgot which is why it needs to still be a two piece design. Not to mention if you ever blow the bucking it will need to be replaced.

 

Here was a concept drawing of a gun that was to use the loading system I was thinking of. The tube under the barrel is where the BB is loaded would hold about 70 rounds.

 

post-55210-1292893932_thumb.jpg

Edited by sounguru

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For the tube you could honestly just use an old inner barrel ;)

 

Why not have an end cap just infront of the trigger mech. With a small enough spring you would be able to keep pressure on the ammo while still allowing for easy loading. You would only have to carry a speed loader into the field for easy loading. That and to be honest, you shouldn't need more than 70 rounds anyway ;)

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For the tube you could honestly just use an old inner barrel ;)

 

Why not have an end cap just infront of the trigger mech. With a small enough spring you would be able to keep pressure on the ammo while still allowing for easy loading. You would only have to carry a speed loader into the field for easy loading. That and to be honest, you shouldn't need more than 70 rounds anyway ;)

 

That is one way of doing it. Sometimes I run as the DM and will go thru more rounds so I was trying to make it to the point I don't have to carry a speed loader. The spring to fit the assembly I have already found.

 

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I measured the entire cylinder volume. From the cylinder head, all the way back to the slit where you're talking about. I wanted an idea of what it would look like in a gun and if it could still look realistic with the design, and it definetly does.. I guess I should also measure from the piston and its farthest point back too, that way I could get an idea of how far the other piston would have to be pulled back and I could find out what sort of spring I could use.. I was kind of hoping that an AEG spring might work, but I'm not really sure about the outer diameter of those. Anybody on here know?

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This might sound totally rediculous, but its just an idea that popped into my head. Since everyone on here seems to like the idea of having the magazine in the same place as their RSC, then why not fashion a tube, like the one that Sounguru has proposed and have it leading from the mag, to the entry point. So, we could have the mag in the same place, then once we slide it into the catch, the feed can slide into the tube and the bbs could load up into it and on down it to the entry point into the barrel. We could use like a small mid-cap M4 mag (with an extended spring, so modded of course so that it can push the bbs up into the tube.) and make a catch system directly in front of the trigger, that has the feed tube right over the feed from the mag. So, it'd be kind of like an external mag, feeding a short several round internal mag. This would mainly just be for looks, but that way, we could start to incorporate Sounguru's ideas into the gun, while also keeping it realistic looking. Feel free to pick it apart. The only part that I see could be faulty is the loading of the internal tube, keeping the bbs up inside there.

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If we are able to get the cylinder down to a really small, but useable size, then we could move the hop up back and not have to worry about the feed tube.

 

I have been working on an idea to just do that.

 

Just need to get a lathe, then I can get working on it :D

the reason we have a big cylinder is that the spring doesnt need to be super stiff to get a decent FPS. of course, we can have a sniper rifle with a small cylinder, but the spring would be a pain to pull back. the tube idea is proven by the AWS, so I would stay to that.

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I have been playing with a cheop shotgun, and the basics of that would make a GREAT sniper rifle! Mags go in the propper place, and there is little to no feed tube.

 

Going to be picking up another one here in a week or so, and us that as a parts gun, to try and make the rifle I have been thinking of ;)

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