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Kemp

HPA Rig Vs Upgraded Spring

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So after making my list of everything I need for my heavily upgraded VSR-10, and realizing it's going to total up around $900 not including shipping, I'm starting to wonder. Would a Tanaka be a better choice for a

Starter sniper rifle? Now I live in Central NY, where it can be 40F one day, and the next, you have 2 foot of snow, so I would be fitting it with an HPA rig. The temperatures around here would be awful with regular gas, so HPA is definitely the best choice. I've googled this quite a few times, and looked on a few forums, but no one seems to have a definitive answer. Would a heavily upgraded VSR with a 170SP, M trig, etc, perform on par with a Tanaka (or any other gun outfitted with HPA)? And if the HPA rig set up would be better, which platform would be the best to rig HPA into? I want a rifle that will last me a long time, will perform well, and will be nice to look at. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

 

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Well after putting all that money into any sniper rifle really it comes down to personal choice. In my opinion I love having a Tanaka. Most spring guns just feel too cheap and unrealistic to me after using gas rifles. But with the added realism also comes a loss of realism by having an HPA rig. I run a 12 gram CO2 set up in the cold here in Ohio and have never had any major FPS problems so maybe you should think of doing that if the thought of carrying a tank around bothers you. One more thing is that 2 roy vsr conversions for the Tanakas are hard to find, but I can send you to a guy who will sell you them. The best set up for a Tanaka would be

Tanaka M700 Police model(or other M700 varient) $425

2 Roy conversion ($75)

Nine ball Bucking ($20)

PDI 6.01 554mm barrel ($172)

HPA Rig ($200)

Striker spring and plate ($35)

Extra 29 round mag ($80)

So that would set you at just over $1000 for the best set up. Sounds like a lot but I think it's worth it. You could opt for a cheaper barrel and you don't need the extra magazine. You could also go the KJW route which would set bring the price down and you wouldn't need the 2roy conversion.

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Well after putting all that money into any sniper rifle really it comes down to personal choice. In my opinion I love having a Tanaka. Most spring guns just feel too cheap and unrealistic to me after using gas rifles. But with the added realism also comes a loss of realism by having an HPA rig. I run a 12 gram CO2 set up in the cold here in Ohio and have never had any major FPS problems so maybe you should think of doing that if the thought of carrying a tank around bothers you. One more thing is that 2 roy vsr conversions for the Tanakas are hard to find, but I can send you to a guy who will sell you them. The best set up for a Tanaka would be

Tanaka M700 Police model(or other M700 varient) $425

2 Roy conversion ($75)

Nine ball Bucking ($20)

PDI 6.01 554mm barrel ($172)

HPA Rig ($200)

Striker spring and plate ($35)

Extra 29 round mag ($80)

So that would set you at just over $1000 for the best set up. Sounds like a lot but I think it's worth it. You could opt for a cheaper barrel and you don't need the extra magazine. You could also go the KJW route which would set bring the price down and you wouldn't need the 2roy conversion.

 

Now that you say this, I am leaning more towards HPA then spring rifle. I like the realism of the bolt pull. Not to sound too noobish, but what are the 2roy conversion kits? They help with the hop up somehow? And the Tanaka M700's are nice, but are there any Tanaka L96 variants that would work as well as the M700 Police Model? Or maybe even an M40 variant that is as effective with an HPA rig? I like the more modern, less "hunting" looking rifles such as the Police version, or even the VSR. That's why I like the L96 and the M40A3's. Thanks again death.

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The bolt pull is very nice. The 2roy conversion replaces a part of the hop up allowing it to use VSR compatible buckings and barrels. This is preferred due to the stock Tanaka hop up design not being the greatest and they're aren't many parts available. One thing you need to know is that with an HPA kit you have to tap the magazine. This is relatively easy with simple shop tools (electric drill, tap, drill bit, wrench). Don't let this scare you though as either buying the shop tools or finding a friend who can help is a great learning experience. With Tanaka's there are many variants. The Tanaka M700 AICS is the L96 model, and there is a M40A1 also. With a nice scope and paint job the rifle won't look as much of a hunting rifle. Although the M40A3's and L96's look good I still prefer a hunting rifle style stock for weight/simplicity reasons.

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The best set up for a Tanaka would be

Tanaka M700 Police model(or other M700 varient) $425

2 Roy conversion ($75)

Nine ball Bucking ($20)

PDI 6.01 554mm barrel ($172)

HPA Rig ($200)

Striker spring and plate ($35)

Extra 29 round mag ($80)

 

So with a Tanaka M700 AICS, and all of these upgrades, there wouldn't be anything more that would assist in performance or consistency? If I'm going to get a rifle, I want it to be as good as it gets.

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Well a good scope of course. But yeah that's a fully upgraded Tanaka for you. Doesn't look like much, but you don't have to replace so many parts with gas rifles like you do spring rifles. The only thing I left out is the G&G rubber set. With the 2roy conversion you can only use one part from the rubber set and it's really not worth it in the end. If you need a parts list for the HPA rig or installation help you can just PM me.

 

Edit: One more thing. With the 2roy kit you'll have to make a new hop up nub. Not the hardest thing to do, but you want it perfect. Just a file and some minor cutting will do it fine.

Edited by deathfromamile

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Well a good scope of course. But yeah that's a fully upgraded Tanaka for you. Doesn't look like much, but you don't have to replace so many parts with gas rifles like you do spring rifles. The only thing I left out is the G&G rubber set. With the 2roy conversion you can only use one part from the rubber set and it's really not worth it in the end. If you need a parts list for the HPA rig or installation help you can just PM me.

 

Edit: One more thing. With the 2roy kit you'll have to make a new hop up nub. Not the hardest thing to do, but you want it perfect. Just a file and some minor cutting will do it fine.

So with all these upgrades, what results could I expect? I know the HPA rig offers adjustable FPS, but how does it perform distance wise? Is accuracy on par with a heavily upgraded VSR? Thanks again death, your insight is appreciated.

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So with all these upgrades, what results could I expect? I know the HPA rig offers adjustable FPS, but how does it perform distance wise? Is accuracy on par with a heavily upgraded VSR? Thanks again death, your insight is appreciated.

 

BB quality, barrel quality, rifle stability, and fps consistency is what will determine your accuracy. The first two are up to you to purchase. Stability is a given with gas rifles as we don't have heavy moving parts slamming into other things and vibrating the entire rifle and barrel (VSR spring pistons) thus negating the need for barrel spacers. Fps consistency is handled by the HPA/Co2 rig. When broken in it's not uncommon to see +/-2 fps, something that even spring rifles don't always reproduce. Distance? You can push the rifle into the 700fps range with a twist of an allen key. This will also depend heavily on your choice and weight of bb's.

 

Also note that there are cheaper alternatives to the build. The Spartan Doctrine VSR conversion is fairly new and looks like a clone of the 2roy kit while running around $38. Deathfromamile used a premium regulator for his build. There are cheaper alternatives like the CP regulator which have a good history behind them and half the price. And of course you can go with an Edgi brass barrel at half the price than the PDI but you sacrifice toughness (PDI is stainless steel while Edgi is brass and more susceptible to scratching with hard long term use).

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BB quality, barrel quality, rifle stability, and fps consistency is what will determine your accuracy. The first two are up to you to purchase. Stability is a given with gas rifles as we don't have heavy moving parts slamming into other things and vibrating the entire rifle and barrel (VSR spring pistons) thus negating the need for barrel spacers. Fps consistency is handled by the HPA/Co2 rig. When broken in it's not uncommon to see +/-2 fps, something that even spring rifles don't always reproduce. Distance? You can push the rifle into the 700fps range with a twist of an allen key. This will also depend heavily on your choice and weight of bb's.

 

Also note that there are cheaper alternatives to the build. The Spartan Doctrine VSR conversion is fairly new and looks like a clone of the 2roy kit while running around $38. Deathfromamile used a premium regulator for his build. There are cheaper alternatives like the CP regulator which have a good history behind them and half the price. And of course you can go with an Edgi brass barrel at half the price than the PDI but you sacrifice toughness (PDI is stainless steel while Edgi is brass and more susceptible to scratching with hard long term use).

Thank you brainplay, as from what I understand, your the expert of gas and HPA rifles around ASF. Now the field I want to play at has a limit of about 550 FPS for bolt action rifles, so ca nyou explain the whole regulator thing to me? Reading your HPA installation guide, it said that the regulator keeps the FPS between safe limit? And is the regulator separate from an actual tank? If so, what size and what brand tank would be good? I'm hoping to be able to keep the HPA bottle in my pocket, or on the ground next to me as I stalk. And how many shots would I get out of a bottle that size?

Edited by Kemp

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Yeah a regulator is a purpose item that bleeds gas until a certain psi. Once the psi level is hit the regulator seals itself off. We use paintball regulators which are run at 30 or more cycles a second. Tank size is up to your own preferences. I use a 12gram quick changer that uses disposable 12gr Co2 caplets. I can get a good 50 shots from one caplet and it's small enough to fit into a pouch on the gun stock. You can either go with a larger Co2 tank or a similar sized HPA tank if you want more shots per fill.

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I recommend using a quick changer like brainplay mentioned. I've been testing mine in the 20 degree ohio winter an have had excellent results.

Here's a review showing a co2 quick changer rig. That's the coldshot unit(no longer in production) which may or may not have better results than a rig you build. But that shows CO2 12 gram capability in freezing temperatures.

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I recommend using a quick changer like brainplay mentioned. I've been testing mine in the 20 degree ohio winter an have had excellent results.
Here's a review showing a co2 quick changer rig. That's the coldshot unit(no longer in production) which may or may not have better results than a rig you build. But that shows CO2 12 gram capability in freezing temperatures.

 

Here is an example of a single stage CO2 rig that uses 12g pellets. I included a 12g pellet in the picture for a size reference.

DSC03764.jpg

DSC03770.jpg

 

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A little thought regarding the aics (l96) stock.

 

I recently purchased a m700 aics and ended up selling it for a tanaka m24 the aics stock is perfect if you plan on sitting in 1 spot but even then it is heavy. Being a sniper in airsoft you already put yourself at a disadvantage, the extra weight will add to that. The aics stock looks nice but it is really a m700 action on the stock, the bolt isn't the same as a l96 and the barrel looks a bit funny because it is tapered. Don't get me wrong I LOVE thumb hole stocks and the but the looks couldn't justify the extra weight.

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A little thought regarding the aics (l96) stock.

 

I recently purchased a m700 aics and ended up selling it for a tanaka m24 the aics stock is perfect if you plan on sitting in 1 spot but even then it is heavy. Being a sniper in airsoft you already put yourself at a disadvantage, the extra weight will add to that. The aics stock looks nice but it is really a m700 action on the stock, the bolt isn't the same as a l96 and the barrel looks a bit funny because it is tapered. Don't get me wrong I LOVE thumb hole stocks and the but the looks couldn't justify the extra weight.

I was actually thinking about that, but I think it'll be worth it. I love the thumbhole stocks, and I'm looking forward to buying it. Is there any advantages of running CO2 instead of HPA? Another question though. What do I need for the HPA rig? Any recommendations on brands for regulators, lines, and other parts I will need? I want to get a good tank and regulator. I do think I want to run HPA, but any input you guys have is appreciated.

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Advantage for a CO2 rig compared to HPA is not having to carry a tank everywhere. Also, you can buy the 12 gram caplets from almost any store with a sports section (ex: wal-mart) rather than having to get the tank filled up. Here's a parts list for a CO2 set up.

Quick Change

Search CO2 quick change on ebay. you should come up with something like this quick change for $5-15

 

ASA adapter

Goes on top of the quick change. Same deal with the quick change. Search ASA adapter on ebay. Should look like this asa adapter Only one though.

 

1/8" npt Nipple(goes from asa adapter to regulator)

search part 4549K512 on mcmaster.com

 

Regulator. This is the one I got, but you can get them for much cheaper.

It's the AKA 2 liter. (first on the page). aka 2 liter

 

1/2 to 1/8 female converter. ( goes on top of regulator)

50785K184 ( on mcmaster)

 

1/8 " npt pipe to hose adapter. Goes from converter to hose.

5225K712

 

Hose ( the minimum amount is 25 feet but it isn't expensive anyways and you have plenty of room to cut to your wanted length.)

5140K234

 

Hose to female pipe adapter. Goes from hose to socket.

5225K604

 

Socket. From pipe adapter to magazine.

9414K19

 

Male socket. Screwed into magazine.

9414K62

 

Now to measure the psi you will disconnect the hose from the socket contraption and hook it into the following parts.

 

Another male hose adapter. Goes from hose to T fitting

5225K712

 

T fitting

4429K259

 

Pressure gauge goes into one hole of T fitting

3793K14

 

Drain :censored2: to release pressure. Goes into another hole of T fitting.

4921K32

 

So what you'll do is hook your hose into the T fitting. Screw a CO2 caplet in and adjust the regulator up to the pressure that you want on the gauge. Should be around 80-90 psi. Then release pressure with the drain :censored2: and make sure the pressure gauge goes back to the same place. All these parts seem like a lot but it's actually quite simple when you have it all put together. Everything will need to be sealed with tfe tape too. Hopefully this all makes sense.

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Lol, the possibilities of those few parts (drain :censored2: to release pressure LOL). ANYWAYS, I have a CO2 BB gun pistol, and have noticed it does perform well in the cold, but is it the same principle with a rifle? Will it get the same ranges and perform the same as an HPA rig? The only thing is the buying of the CO2. It seems to me that I wouldn't get as many shots with CO2 as with HPA. I like the idea of one tank that I could carry in my ruck sack and just switch mags, instead of carrying multiple tanks. But, performance is my main concern. Thanks to everyone for their feedback. Eventually, I'll be able to post pics of my rifle... And I look forward to that day.

Edited by Kemp

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Lol, the possibilities of those few parts (drain :censored2: to release pressure LOL). ANYWAYS, I have a CO2 BB gun pistol, and have noticed it does perform well in the cold, but is it the same principle with a rifle? Will it get the same ranges and perform the same as an HPA rig? The only thing is the buying of the CO2. It seems to me that I wouldn't get as many shots with CO2 as with HPA. I like the idea of one tank that I could carry in my ruck sack and just switch mags, instead of carrying multiple tanks. But, performance is my main concern. Thanks to everyone for their feedback. Eventually, I'll be able to post pics of my rifle... And I look forward to that day.

Yeah it's almost like being a plumber with all these parts. The difference between HPA and CO2 would be extremely minimal in cold weather. In hot weather there basically are none. You get around 50-100 shots with one CO2 caplet and they're extremely easy to change out quickly. With an HPA tank you have added weight to your kit and a longer line which personally I don't like. Basically all those parts are the same for an HPA rig so you could go with CO2 first and then maybe further on switch to HPA.

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Yeah it's almost like being a plumber with all these parts. The difference between HPA and CO2 would be extremely minimal in cold weather. In hot weather there basically are none. You get around 50-100 shots with one CO2 caplet and they're extremely easy to change out quickly. With an HPA tank you have added weight to your kit and a longer line which personally I don't like. Basically all those parts are the same for an HPA rig so you could go with CO2 first and then maybe further on switch to HPA.

Well, I do like the idea of HPA more, because I should be able to fill the tank with my air compressor. But death, do you have any idea what parts I would need for a normal HPA rig?

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You won't really be able to fill an HPA tank with a basic air compressor. Most basic ones max out somewhere around 150-200psi, where an HPA tank holds in the thousands of psi. So, unless you have a more specialized compressor, like one you'd fill scuba tanks or something, you won't be able to get to the necessary pressure levels for it to really be worthwhile. Just checking to make sure you realize that because most people don't have those sorts of filling stations (and I'm assuming you don't), as they are very expensive, if I recall.

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You won't really be able to fill an HPA tank with a basic air compressor. Most basic ones max out somewhere around 150-200psi, where an HPA tank holds in the thousands of psi. So, unless you have a more specialized compressor, like one you'd fill scuba tanks or something, you won't be able to get to the necessary pressure levels for it to really be worthwhile. Just checking to make sure you realize that because most people don't have those sorts of filling stations (and I'm assuming you don't), as they are very expensive, if I recall.

I thought I read that somewhere. Mines just a normal compressor, for like mechanics and other stuff. But I still like the idea of HPA. Where would I go to find the parts to make an HPA rig?

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I thought I read that somewhere. Mines just a normal compressor, for like mechanics and other stuff. But I still like the idea of HPA. Where would I go to find the parts to make an HPA rig?

For an HPA rig the parts list would be the exact same as what I posted except maybe one to two parts. I'm pretty sure you just buy an HPA tank instead of a co2 quick change then put the asa adapter on the tank instead of putting it on the quick change.

Edited by deathfromamile

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For the HPA rig you need an HPA tank and another regulator specifally for getting the hpa pressure from 3,000(yes that is three thousand) PSI down to about 800 psi (about what co2 is in the tank).

This will cost you about $140, more than the rest of the kit combined, even with that aka, top of the line, regulator.

 

Alternatively you can get a 12gram quick changer, $15 and 12gram bomblets, $35 for 50, a buck a bomblet for about 20.

 

It is up to you which you want. I have a purse (yes a purse, I said it) that I store my CO2 12 ounce tank and rig in, and I tell you it is a pain to deal with, I am looking at buying the quick changer to mount this thing on the gun.

 

Just for you pick of gas in cold weather propane is liquid at -40C, CO2 as a liquid is stable at -80C, and N2(most of what is air) will be gas at bellow -100C. You may notice a performance increase with HPA of CO2 if you play in temperatures in the teens F.

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There are some alternatives to large HPA tanks. They've taken a number of 20oz tanks and made them HPA specific (you cannot use Co2 with these anymore or it ruins them). Google 48 ci tanks. Guerrilla Air makes some decent versions that include a reducing regulator with a set pressure at 850psi and go for around $40-$50. Ironically, the smaller you go, the more expensive they become. There are some very small 13 ci tanks made by Ninja and Guerrilla that will still give you plenty of shots but they run between $60 - $90.

 

These were more intended for pump action paintball guns that ran at 600psi-800psi and only gave between 150-400 shots per fill. Because of this, they weren't that popular and there have been cutting prices on these for a while. For airsoft where we run at much lower pressures (80psi - 120psi) we should get triple the number of shots per fill at the minimum.

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If you go with HPA, I would invest in a scuba tank + fill station.

 

Considering local fills at a paintball field around me runs about $5 for each tank, or getting a scuba tank filled for $7, it's kinda like using a propane adapter vs. green gas cans. Sure the propane adapter is more expensive at first, but after a while, the cost will pay off.

 

Just make sure the scuba tank you buy has been recently hydro'd/visually inspected. Last thing you want is for it to explode when it's being filled.

 

It's going to cost around $100 ($80 for a used tank + $20 for a fill station) to set it up, but considering that you can fill up your tank 9+ times from a scuba tank, it will pay itself off in 2-3 scuba fills.

 

Also, you can bring your scuba tank around in your car, so when you go to events, you can still use your HPA gun.

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For the HPA rig you need an HPA tank and another regulator specifally for getting the hpa pressure from 3,000(yes that is three thousand) PSI down to about 800

 

800 psi? Are you crazy? 200psi gives you around 700fps... You wont be able to even get a shot of if the G&G striker spring was twice as stiff as it is now on that kind of a pressure.

 

My regulator goes from 0- 3000 psi... I use it at around 190 psi, giving me 200ms (around 700fps)

 

 

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800 psi? Are you crazy? 200psi gives you around 700fps... You wont be able to even get a shot of if the G&G striker spring was twice as stiff as it is now on that kind of a pressure.

 

My regulator goes from 0- 3000 psi... I use it at around 190 psi, giving me 200ms (around 700fps)

You need the another regulator because a normal regulator can't get you down from 3000 psi by itself.

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The palmers stabilizer (male, std 0-700 psi) is rated <AT> Max input psi: 1800 (High pressure format 3000). If you have a higher input pressure, you can put a screw in reg. on your tank like the ninja air HPA reg, which brings the pressure down to 600 psi I believe.

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The palmers stabilizer (male, std 0-700 psi) is rated <AT> Max input psi: 1800 (High pressure format 3000). If you have a higher input pressure, you can put a screw in reg. on your tank like the ninja air HPA reg, which brings the pressure down to 600 psi I believe.

 

Well, I have a standard paintball HPA tank at 200bar (3000psi) and a standard Palmers HIGH pressure regulator. Wouldn't that mean that the output pressure from the tank is 3000psi and the regulator regulates it form 3k psi down to a psi of my choice. 0- say 600?

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Well, I have a standard paintball HPA tank at 200bar (3000psi) and a standard Palmers HIGH pressure regulator. Wouldn't that mean that the output pressure from the tank is 3000psi and the regulator regulates it form 3k psi down to a psi of my choice. 0- say 600?

 

That's how I understand it works too. I don't know why they say 1800 psi max input 3000 psi in high pressure format. I have the same regulator, how do you like yours? I thought about getting the low pressure spring kit, but I don't know if it will be worth it... std is 0-700 and low pressure is 0-300 or 0-200.

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That's how I understand it works too. I don't know why they say 1800 psi max input 3000 psi in high pressure format. I have the same regulator, how do you like yours? I thought about getting the low pressure spring kit, but I don't know if it will be worth it... std is 0-700 and low pressure is 0-300 or 0-200.

 

There are no HPA tanks that have a 3000psi output except for replacement tank bodies. All HPA tanks sold come with a primary regulator that reduces the 3000psi to something manageable. This is almost always 800-850psi and is NOT a precision regulator. Without that, you really cannot fill the tank unless you have a direct on/off switch and a station operator crazy enough to fill it (the regs also have the pressure gauge). 3000psi is the maximum pressure to which the tank is filled. The difference between a HIGH pressure regulator and a LOW pressure regulator is the output limits which are 0-800psi (high) and 0-300psi (low). Paintball markers will run at 800psi but very few can run on pressure as low as 300psi, hence the distinction in what the regulators are called.

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Thanks for the explanation, now that I think about it it makes sense. I guess what I was saying about the LP kit for the stabilizer is whether it is more consistent than the HP one. All regs have a sweet spot, where it will be the most consistent.

Edited by rdjorge

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About the Spartan VSR kit.

 

2Roy was the real producer of the kit, no King Arms, and 2Roy are the same guys than Pax Armamentia (Korean based). Spartan is the new Pax Armamentia guys brand. Ergo....2Roy and Spartan are the same kit.

 

 

My 2 cents.

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