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hunterseeker5

R-hop installation manual (Necro Exempt)

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So... Interesting story for today, Everything was running fine. Had the R-Hop installed in my L85. I thought I had installed it correctly, but apparently not? I noticed a nice increase in range over the flat hop, I was satisfied with it, everything was running great. However, today, in the middle of the day, my gun does something unusual, doesn't fire. I pull the trigger again (didn't hear anything from the gearbox the first time, I figured it was just a misfeed), so I shot again, nothing, on the third shot, I see the first two bbs go flying out, and some other piece of trash. I didn't know where the trash came from, but soon figured out that it was my r-hop patch, as I no longer had hop. The lunch break was soon after, so I opened up the gun, and sure enough, the patch was gone.

 

My gun is putting out 4J, I was using madbull .4g bbs, the barrel is a 550mm 6.03 Prometheus, the hop up window has been cut to use an unmodified r-hop patch, the patch was sanded to fit, the patch was glued to a KWA 2GX bucking. I'm really not sure what happened, so I thought I would report my findings and take any recommendations anyone may have to give.

 

 

YOU SHOT IT OUT THE BARREL. :a-shocked: Holy :pain: I've never heard of that happening yet. 4J is powerful but not THAT powerful. I suppose now is the time I'm supposed to come up with a theory? Ummmmm. Ok first off I'd ask what glue you used? Most CA glue when applied properly will be a pretty permanent connection, and would almost certainly rip the bucking when being pulled out. Anyway its irrelevant because a lot of users don't adhere their contact patches at all and don't have a problem. Ok lets keep theorizing. So how would you get a contact patch down into the barrel? Well if you tried to pull it down at the front of the window you'd get a pinch jam, and that'd probably not move. If it did it'd have to slide down ahead of the bb meaning your entire glue job would have had to fail at one time and somehow drive the patch downward into the barrel at the front. All in all not likely. What sounds more likely to me is that somehow you caught the rearward lip of the R-hop and pulled it into the barrel. Did you radius the edge there? Is it possible you somehow asymmetrically pressed down on the hop to such an extreme degree you caught the lip of the R-hop? :a-confused: I mean I do usually recommend the ER-hop for applications like yours, but I've tested the regular R-hop up to over 8J now no problem. I guess I should congratulate you because not only did you stump me you managed to do the one thing I thought almost couldn't happen: shoot an R-hop out your barrel.

 

I do have one thing to note though for EVERYONE here. IF YOU GET A JAM STOP PULLING THE TRIGGER. NOBODY HAS EVER FIXED A GUN BY PULLING THE TRIGGER. THIS ISN'T ADVICE SPECIFIC TO THE R-HOP, IF YOUR GUN JAMS OR STOPS FIRING DON'T CLEAR IT BY FIRING MORE. Star Folder was just lucky his compression is lousy (or he has a TANK piston) because in most guns that'd cost you at least a piston.

 

And by the way Star Folder because you did something wacky that I'd like to learn about if you ship me the spit out piece of the R-hop along with your bucking to analyze I'll send you a free set of whatever flavor R-hop you prefer. I take problems with my products VERY seriously, and if you have one normally all you need to do is produce whatever you broke and I'll cover you.

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I do have one thing to note though for EVERYONE here. IF YOU GET A JAM STOP PULLING THE TRIGGER. NOBODY HAS EVER FIXED A GUN BY PULLING THE TRIGGER. THIS ISN'T ADVICE SPECIFIC TO THE R-HOP, IF YOUR GUN JAMS OR STOPS FIRING DON'T CLEAR IT BY FIRING MORE. Star Folder was just lucky his compression is lousy (or he has a TANK piston) because in most guns that'd cost you at least a piston.

 

(unless your using a fusion engine)

 

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I don't have the patch, it's somewhere on the field between a few bbs.

 

And in my defense, I was unaware that I had jammed. Nothing sounded different when I shot, and my mags are on their way out, so I figured it was just a misfeed. I'll be rebuilding the L85 soon anyway, as you said, it seems I've got a pretty bad compression leak in there some where, my bet is the kwa bucking was leaking. And while we're on the subject, What bucking do you suggest? I've heard you say madbull a lot, but I also know you are using a madbull chamber. Would you still suggest a madbull bucking even with a Prometheus chamber?

 

The glue used was Locktite Super glue. The stuff sets very solidly, It works great for sorbo on a cylinder head, but I'm thinking that it was a bad choice for a flexable hop up chamber. I'm fairly positive that the glue broke down from simply flexing enough times (I probably put 10k rounds through the hop up before this happened). Now that I think about it, only two bbs came out of the gun, that would seem that the first possibly wedged in the chamber, maybe pulling the patch down a little bit. When the second bb was loaded and fired, it pulled the patch out of the window and pushed it out the barrel. I guess that one of those shots was a dry fire like I suspected. It's hard to say, I don't remember clearly, it was in the middle of a fire fight.

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(unless your using a fusion engine)

 

 

No even with the fusion engine. I have a massive gouge in one of my steel barrels to prove it. (thank you Evike for selling Matrix glass bbs which are more egg shaped than round) Thats what I get for thinking "well I can't strip the f*cker so I might as well just fire it out." It was a :censored2: to clear that too FYI.

 

 

And in my defense, I was unaware that I had jammed. Nothing sounded different when I shot, and my mags are on their way out, so I figured it was just a misfeed. I'll be rebuilding the L85 soon anyway, as you said, it seems I've got a pretty bad compression leak in there some where, my bet is the kwa bucking was leaking. And while we're on the subject, What bucking do you suggest? I've heard you say madbull a lot, but I also know you are using a madbull chamber. Would you still suggest a madbull bucking even with a Prometheus chamber?

 

 

The glue used was Locktite Super glue. The stuff sets very solidly, It works great for sorbo on a cylinder head, but I'm thinking that it was a bad choice for a flexable hop up chamber. I'm fairly positive that the glue broke down from simply flexing enough times (I probably put 10k rounds through the hop up before this happened). Now that I think about it, only two bbs came out of the gun, that would seem that the first possibly wedged in the chamber, maybe pulling the patch down a little bit. When the second bb was loaded and fired, it pulled the patch out of the window and pushed it out the barrel. I guess that one of those shots was a dry fire like I suspected. It's hard to say, I don't remember clearly, it was in the middle of a fire fight.

 

Unaware of the jam? Yikes no :pain: you have a big compression leak somewhere. Ummmmm I'm not quite sure about the loctite glue. I'd be surprised if it was flexing alone which caused it to fail, but its possible I suppose. The glue layer should be so thin though that it should flex relatively easily. I'd start pointing fingers at a bad glue joint and/or improper surface prep but that still fails to address my main concern which is that even an unglued patch won't normally be pulled into the barrel. Looking at the inside of the rubber bucking for this reason is a bit anecdotal, since we can see how the glue joint failed but not what actually caused the problem. Thats why looking at wear patterns on the patch is the critical ingredient to diagnosing this problem.

 

I don't recommend madbulls for 4J outside the madbull hop chamber. The chamber itself is specially designed to work with THAT HOP ONLY and allows excellent performance. Since you're stuck in an L85 I'd suggest looking at something like a traditional hard rubber. Firefly and Prometheus come to mind.

 

And also, just as added insurance this time, try radiusing the rear edge of the hop. I'd also push you in the direction of an ER-hop for your setup. If that isn't the gun you'd want an ER-hop for I don't know what would be. Thats not to say that a normal R-hop should fail in this application, because it shouldn't, but your gun is textbook ER-hop. If you tune it right it should also boost power by reducing initial spike bleed-off by reducing the peak pressure.

 

 

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hmmm, I may just break down and get the Madbull chamber because 1. I have lots and lots of madbull rubbers, and 2. I want something easier to adjust on the field without bruising my fingers. My L85 takes standard 1 piece hop up units, and I'm not opposed to modifying the gun/chamber so they fit happily.

 

I'll happily give it a second shot, with the ER hop this time. The more I think about it, the more I think that this was the result of some install error. This was my first install, second patch, I think it was more of a lucky shot than a good, solid install.

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With a stubby killer barrel, (190mm) I think, if it would be paired with the rhop would it be possible to get decent groupings (man size) at around 200 or so ft.

 

Barrel length has very little to do with with range or accuracy. What matters more is your hop up, velocity, and bbs that you are using. With the original G-hop, (what the R-hop was based off of) I heard that you could reach 200ft with a 1J gun using .28g bbs (~330fps with .20g bbs) I would assume that your gun is shooting hotter than this, meaning you can use heavier bbs, so yes, you should be able to achieve a 200ft shot with the R-hop.

 

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I'm using an ER-hop in some cheap seven (maybe less even) barrel. Yeah you'd be amazed what you can do with a short barrel. Remember though not to over-volume your system because THAT can mess with your accuracy.

 

Sorry to be a little off topic, but what kind of effects on accuracy would you see with an over volume system? Is there a general effect or is it situational?

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If I'm not mistaken, over-voluming can cause a decrease in fps (sometimes people see an increase, but I assume that's because they have a leak somewhere) and because there is too much air, the bb has exited the barrel before the piston hits the cylinder head. Because of the excess air, the bb doesn't completely "settle" inside the barrel. Something to that extent.

 

Basically, it's no bueno. That's really all you need to know :)

 

I think that's right, someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by Stealthmaster14

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I actually messed this up on my ICS Sig552 the other day; I didn't cut the groove quite like I needed to and ended up making it so it made a flat mound in the hop up chamber instead of the proper BB upside down U-shape to conform to the BB's top half. Even so, I was able to fling .25g ammo(heaviest I have atm) much farther than I had with my previous nubs; I'll practice some more and then try it with my MP5-J; I was always looking to increase the effective range of my smaller guns - looks like this is just the thing I was hoping for.

 

I'll be ordering some more soon and making barrel windows a little longer to accommodate full sized normal R-Hops, I want to try using .30's soon since my gun fires ~400fps w/.2's and I haven't even touched the gearbox yet. After compression fixes and such I'm hoping to hit ~420fps so I have one patch left to try to get it good with .25's and then just adjust the hop up when I get .3's.

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I actually messed this up on my ICS Sig552 the other day; I didn't cut the groove quite like I needed to and ended up making it so it made a flat mound in the hop up chamber instead of the proper BB upside down U-shape to conform to the BB's top half. Even so, I was able to fling .25g ammo(heaviest I have atm) much farther than I had with my previous nubs; I'll practice some more and then try it with my MP5-J; I was always looking to increase the effective range of my smaller guns - looks like this is just the thing I was hoping for.

 

I'll be ordering some more soon and making barrel windows a little longer to accommodate full sized normal R-Hops, I want to try using .30's soon since my gun fires ~400fps w/.2's and I haven't even touched the gearbox yet. After compression fixes and such I'm hoping to hit ~420fps so I have one patch left to try to get it good with .25's and then just adjust the hop up when I get .3's.

 

 

Honestly my findings are that length of contact is more important than area of contact (the perfect U) so while it may be more desirable to have the U, especially with heavier rounds, the primary advantage of longer effective range will still be present with a relatively "flat" contact.

 

Sorry to be a little off topic, but what kind of effects on accuracy would you see with an over volume system? Is there a general effect or is it situational?

 

Your question seems simple, but is actually rather complicated. Over volume can have a variety of effects, some desirable some not, on your system. It all depends on your optimization and tuning. To give you the short version of a long answer, over-volume will bleed off power so your gun will shoot less powerfully than its spring is rated for, will induce muzzle turbulence which can destabilize rounds as they exit the barrel reducing accuracy, and in essence you should avoid doing it.

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And now I have a question for all you.

 

 

I'm getting some resistance from people regarding the ER and IER hops, and thats because most people don't have the tools/skills/confidence/whatever to cut a barrel themselves. As a result they'd have to ship the barrel to me to modify it, I'd then modify it and ship it back. This extra shipping step adds cost and wastes time.

 

I'm not prepared to start stocking barrels because there are so many choices and everyone wants their own thing blah blah blah. That said if everyone could get together and just decide they want a barrel re-cut for the ER-hop now I could do a batch order of barrels, negating the cost of shipping one way. That way you get exactly the brand and length barrel you want, and you get it without the extra shipping cost and step. Is there any interest in this?

 

(also I might throw on some kind of discount for cutting the barrel because, presumably, I'd be doing a batch of them rather than doing them one at a time)

Edited by hunterseeker5

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if I didnt already have my barrels I would love to do this lol

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And now I have a question for all you.

 

 

I'm getting some resistance from people regarding the ER and IER hops, and thats because most people don't have the tools/skills/confidence/whatever to cut a barrel themselves. As a result they'd have to ship the barrel to me to modify it, I'd then modify it and ship it back. This extra shipping step adds cost and wastes time.

 

I'm not prepared to start stocking barrels because there are so many choices and everyone wants their own thing blah blah blah. That said if everyone could get together and just decide they want a barrel re-cut for the ER-hop now I could do a batch order of barrels, negating the cost of shipping one way. That way you get exactly the brand and length barrel you want, and you get it without the extra shipping cost and step. Is there any interest in this?

 

(also I might throw on some kind of discount for cutting the barrel because, presumably, I'd be doing a batch of them rather than doing them one at a time)

 

 

I'm definitely interested in purchasing the barrel. I am currently running a PR-15 with a 509mm Prometheus 6.03, moundless systema bucking+h nub, and my accuracy is decent, but I'm only able to reach out to about 220ft accurately. I also would like to purchase some R Hop patches from you, however, I was having trouble using the ASM site. Apparently, I'm not allowed to send PMs.

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I'm definitely interested in purchasing the barrel. I am currently running a PR-15 with a 509mm Prometheus 6.03, moundless systema bucking+h nub, and my accuracy is decent, but I'm only able to reach out to about 220ft accurately. I also would like to purchase some R Hop patches from you, however, I was having trouble using the ASM site. Apparently, I'm not allowed to send PMs.

 

 

Yeah only members who have a certain number of posts can send PMs. Either post more there, or shoot me a PM here. :)

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Ok quick post everyone. I really don't want to discuss this product run in this thread because its just not the right place for it. This thread is for install questions and I don't want to derail it.

 

I hope I'm not breaking the rules here, but here is a link to the thread where I'd appreciate people with input and interest discussing this limited run of barrels I mentioned a few posts up. Thanks everyone

 

http://forums.airsoftmechanics.com/index.p...390.0;topicseen

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Robin-Hood's version of how to install an R-Hop.


Have you've your lovely *R-Hop patches just arrived in the mail? Are you sitting, looking at a contact patch thinking, great, so what now? If so then you (might) have come to the right place! That is assuming I'm not crazier than Dr Nick and that you've already got a suitable de-bumped hop bucking to use. :)

So pick a contact patch to use. Go on, pick one. See, that wasn't so hard was it. :o

RH01.jpg

Now you'll realise it's just far too long for your hop window! This is terrible news, right? So you're going to take a knife to it! Yay, sharp things. Okay so before you go dancing around with a sharp blade in your hand I want you to measure up your hop window.

RH02.jpg

Once you know how long you need your contact patch to be, you'll need to take your choice of cut related instrument and, as it says on the the tin, cut! Cut the contact patch down so it's short enough to fit in your hop window. It's okay if you err on the side of caution, it's better to take off too little than too much.

RH03.jpg

Now you'll be able to put your R-Hop patch in your hop window, yay! Well don't get too excited yet, you'll notice the patch has decided to start playing awkward buggers and is too tall for the hop window!

RH04.jpg

So now we have to remedy this. How you ask? Well it's easy, you have to lop his feet off! So get your slicey thing ready Dr Airsoft, it's time to play operation. :eek: This bit can be a little tricky, I've tried a few different ways of doing this and frankly they are all pretty much as awkward as the others so just do what feels best for you, of course be careful not to cut yourself and make sure the base of the 'legs' stay as horizontally flat as possible. Again, it's best to err on the side of caution here and go slowly. Don't rush it and take too much off. Just take enough off so that it's perfectly flush with the barrel all the way round.

RH05.jpg

Now you have cut the R-Hop patch down to size you're probably giving sighs of relief and thinking about how easy that was. Well HAH! You're not done yet, Mr R-Hop has decided he's eaten to much cake and it's gone straight to his hips. If you look down you're barrel you will see the inner diameter is far too small and the patch is protruding significantly into the barrel.

RH07.jpg

Now you're going to have to give his fat *** some liposuction. The best way I find to do this is to use the chainsaw sharpening bit on your Dremel. I like to keep it at a relatively low speed. I have also found no better way so far to hold the contact patch during the process than to simple do exactly that, hold it. It's awkward, he wriggles, he flexes, he tries to jump out of your fingers and escape because he doesn't like getting carpet burn on his ***. Well you're just going to have to hold him down firmly and hope for the best. Some people like to keep the patch in the barrel and dremel it out from the inside, this just feels all kind of wrong to me but it is an option if you feel up for it. You can also use a hand file, I suggest either a rat-tail or round parallel file. You could also use a larger rounded needle file but the process will be somewhat slower. Make sure it's fine otherwise you will tear up the patch.

This is the difficult stage, keep checking the inner diameter in the barrel until it's basically flush. Then you'll just have to start assembling your barrel group and test firing, then repeat tuning & slowly removing material until it's where you want it to be. Your surgical skills had better be top notch here otherwise you're starting over! At this point you are ready to 'glue' the contact patch and bucking in and make things permanent.

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As always thank you SO MUCH for posting that up. I forget whether or not you PMed me your address (on AM) to get some free schwagg to say thank you. I'm also going to steal all your pictures in case your image hosting goes down at least on AM where I'm a mod I can edit your post and put them back in or at least copy your post and give credit where its due. I like your manual better than mine.

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I will soon be posting up a guide on how to do this on a VSR-Styled Hop Up. Thanks for the great guide, Robin Hood...I laughed my way throughout it. Clever humor always makes someones day.

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Ok guys I am having a problem. I can cut down patch to fit in the window but when I start cutting from the bottomw to be flush with the outside of the barrel thats when the problem starts. I get to the point where I cut so much off that the patch is thin enough to fall in the barrel from the window but it still protrudes from the top. I only have one patch left so I want to get it right this time. I am college right now so I cant post a pic till I get home but any help is accepted.

 

Thanksz

 

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Ok guys I am having a problem. I can cut down patch to fit in the window but when I start cutting from the bottomw to be flush with the outside of the barrel thats when the problem starts. I get to the point where I cut so much off that the patch is thin enough to fall in the barrel from the window but it still protrudes from the top. I only have one patch left so I want to get it right this time. I am college right now so I cant post a pic till I get home but any help is accepted.

 

Thanksz

Get a friend with a smartphone to shoot a picture of your problem, because even the second time through it still doesn't make any sense. Your barrel has physical thickness, so your contact patch should sit on the edges of the barrel. The bucking and CA glue when you've got it right should hold it in place.

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here is a pic

 

IMG_0107.jpg

 

I know the camera has a horrible focus.

the only better way I can think of explaining it is that the wall thickness of the patch seems to be much greater than the window of the barrel itself so by the time I cut it down enough to be flush with the window

 

I barely have any contact patch to come in contact with the bb.

 

 

Plus yet again another spoonfeed question here:

 

what is the easiest and painless way to turn the bucking inside out without the lips doing so , so I can install the bucking back on the right way????

 

 

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here is a pic

 

IMG_0107.jpg

 

I know the camera has a horrible focus.

the only better way I can think of explaining it is that the wall thickness of the patch seems to be much greater than the window of the barrel itself so by the time I cut it down enough to be flush with the window

 

I barely have any contact patch to come in contact with the bb.

 

 

Plus yet again another spoonfeed question here:

 

what is the easiest and painless way to turn the bucking inside out without the lips doing so , so I can install the bucking back on the right way????

 

 

Ah ha I see your problem...... you're cutting the contact patch too small. You want the contact patch to sit the full width of the window and to sit flush with the barrel. The key to a great R-hop install is the make it fit on the OUTSIDE first. Once you do there'll probably be too much protrusion into the barrel for the weight ammo you're using (this isn't necessarily true, but you've got to have a seriously high power rifle and be shooting some heavy stuff to need the maximum barrel intrusion) so from there you tune from the inside. Basically Robin hood's and my images show PERFECTLY what it should look like from the OUTSIDE. Focus there first, since that seems to be your problem. Once you have that right you just take material off from the inside to get ideally LESS than the necessary amount of hop for your minimum ammo mass. From there you increase hop with your hop unit dial. In essence make it look like this:

Perfectly flush outside THEN inside. When you get good cracking one of these out with a rotary tool is no problem. The #1 source of issues is people going too far too fast as it appears you've done.

 

How to flip the bucking inside out but leaving the lips right side out as seen in this vid?

 

Yeah you do that by starting at the OPPOSITE side from the lips and basically "rolling" it back on itself. It helps if you have something running inside the bucking like a rod or bolt or something to stabilize it. You'll definitely need both hands, and be careful not to tear the bucking.

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I see exactly what your saying. and that is what I have been trying to do. ( watch both vids a dozen time haha).

 

I believe if I can get you some better pics I can explain the problem. I will just start my last patch for now cutting it to fit in window and then take pics to show you my dilemma. thanks for all the help and I can guarantee youll see my pics shortly haha.

 

 

also is there anyway I could buy like 3 inches of the contact patch material. if not I understand.

 

I have scrapped my original plan of using my m14 for my first r hop build instead I am pulling out either my m4 or my custom MAKR-9( ak and m4) to do this too.

 

LET ME KNOW ABOUT THE CONTACT PATCHES I REALLY WANNA BUY THAT MUCH ( Hopefully for a bulk price cuz im a cheapo)

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Just take a file and ten minutes to make your barrel window deeper.

 

Only smart way to do that is with a mill and some to deblu with. I have neither and don't wanna mess with a tight bore. Plus hs5 has done plenty of r hops with shallow windows

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I've done it with a good file and it works fine. You just have to take something and clean the edges of the barrel window once you're done (I used an really sharp knife).

 

Just lay the file across the window so that it is taking the same amount of metal off both sides.

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LET ME KNOW ABOUT THE CONTACT PATCHES I REALLY WANNA BUY THAT MUCH ( Hopefully for a bulk price cuz im a cheapo)

 

It doesn't come like that. I do however offer bulk discounts if you want to buy lots of contact patches. PM me for the price breaks.

Edited by hunterseeker5

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kind of off topic here but for precise work like youll need for the r hop

 

check out the dremel 220-01 rotary tool station. Not going to post a link as im sure its against the rules. It is a nifty little tool though and at least in my mind looks like it would save money buying it over a drill press.

Especially for any precision machining pertaining to airsoft though, it holds the dremel for you so you can hold on to the item in question.

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