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JonathanEngr

14.8v Batteries a Benefit?

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Well, I'm well into doing some upgrades to my gun. FPS, ROF and accuracy, and during my never-ending youtube search on rate-of-fire I came across someone using a 14.8v lipo battery... hmmmmm....

 

Back when I first began upgrading, several people told me to beware of high-speed gearsets with stronger springs. These gearsets are more apt to break due to smaller tooth size. Other than the motor speed (swapping for a faster neo motor) and reducing fps by lowering the spring tension, it's about the only way to speed up the ROF. So, a light bulb went off in my head (albeit a very dim one...!)....

 

Hi-torque motors aren't as fast as high speed motors, but high torque has so many advantages. Extremely good trigger response, ability to pull a heavy spring, ability to turn a fast gear ratio, etc., etc., but speed is to some degree their drawback (although many hi-torque motors turn pretty doggoned fast on an 11.1v lipo).

 

I have an extreme fire mosfet rated for up to 18.5 volts. Can neo magnet motors safely take a 14.8v battery? If so, why not make that your base platform for a faster ROF? Let's say you have a 400 fps gun and you want to crank out 40 rps. You'll certainly upgrade the motor, but then what? Change over to a high-speed gearset that is weaker than your curent gearset? Do other parts really matter? I mean--if you crank out 40 rps, does the spring really care if it comes from an 11.1v lipo, neo motor and high-speed gearset versus a 14.8v lipo, neo motor and standard (stronger--assuming the gearset is of the same material) gearset? At 400 fps and 40 rps, the hop-up won't care, the bucking won't care, and would the piston care? I assume the faster trigger response might put a bit more of a load on the piston, but wouldn't it more-or-less be minimal?

 

I have been toying with the idea of going to a 13:1 gearset to up my rof, but wouldn't I be better off with a stronger "standard" gearset (18.72 or whatever), neo motor and a 14.8v battery? Not only could I achieve the same ROF with say, a 120 spring, but if I chose to do so I could up my spring to a 150 or 160 (and yes--I know this would strain my internals a lot more). But my point is, with EVERYTHING being the same in the gun (neo motor, spring, hop-up, bucking, barrel--the works!) except for gearset ratio and battery voltage, would I not be better off using a 14.8v lipo with a higher ratio gearset for strength?

 

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By the way--when we're paying hundreds of dollars for a gun, would an additional $5 matter? I know aftermarket MOSFETs cost a good deal more, but WHY aren't gun manufacturers installing them as standard equipment? Even with NiMH batteries it will *greatly* increase the longevity of the trigger switch. I just don't get it.

Edited by JonathanEngr

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I think your question is asking why don't people use a high torque motor on standard ratio gears to get 40rps at 400 fps and increase durability instead of running 13:1 on highspeed motor and blah blah. WELL to start people do that just 14.8s are not very common in airsoft because you can get 50rps on a good 11.1 lipo. Now as for your durability question about the 13:1 gears if you get a good pair of gears like roitsc (seigetek im spelling that wrong prolly) they wont break so go ahead and use a 40rps at 400 fps, its mostly in the gear quality to be honest what you can run

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Yes--you understood my question perfectly, I think. But... why not use a 14.8 lipo using 16:1 or 18:1 Siegetek gears and get even more durability? I guess my basic question is: can neo-magnet motors safely take a 14.8v power source? If so, using high-ratio gears (from the same manufacturer such as Siegetek) would give you more overall reliability.

 

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Plus, from what I can find, their higher-ratio gearsets (gosh--from my Google search it seems ALL of their gearsets) seem to only come for version 2 and version 3 gearboxes. Do they make any gears for version 6 gearboxes? If not, then it seems you'd definitely want to stay with more standard-ratio gearboxes for strength from other manufacturers, and increase the voltage on the motor for more rpms instead.

 

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One last edit... I'm not sure if you meant that 14.8v lipos are uncommon on airsoft supplier sites. I have to say that if you buy "airsoft" lipos, DON'T! I also do radio-controlled airplanes, and recently bought two 11.1v 2650 mah lipos with hard casings for $19 each. Airsoft sites waaaaaaaaaaay overcharge for their lipos. It's the same battery, and on RC sites you can get lipos all day long up to 40 c and 22.2 volts:

 

http://www.hobbypartz.com/skylipo40c.html

Edited by JonathanEngr

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People have been using high torque motors coupled with high speed gears for a while now and without issue. Don't buy into the hype that high speed gears are weaker or whatever crap some people are spewing.

 

You absolutely can us 14.8v batteries if you want. The trick is finding other parts that can keep up with that. When you increase the voltage, you increase the wear on everything. You have a good MOSFET that can handle it, but what about your wire and motors. Those can burn out. 40rps is achievable on a 11.1v and is done quite regularly. 70rps id achievable on a 11.1v and DSG (Dual Sector Gear). So when going for high speed, you have to ask yourself, is it worth going up to a 14.8v, or maybe switch over to a DSG.

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Don't buy into the hype that high speed gears are weaker or whatever crap some people are spewing.

That would be me :a-salute:

 

and it's not really disputable.. try running an M150+ on anything but Siegetek highspeed gears. It's not that they're "weaker," it's that the load on the gears is drastically increased because they have to do the same amount of work in significantly fewer motor revolutions, and so they can't reliably pull the same springs that standard ratio gears can. It's the reason lower-ratio torque gears were invented, right?

 

With that said, 400fps is no problem for an SHS 13:1 set.

 

 

You absolutely can us 14.8v batteries if you want. The trick is finding other parts that can keep up with that. When you increase the voltage, you increase the wear on everything. You have a good MOSFET that can handle it, but what about your wire and motors. Those can burn out. 40rps is achievable on a 11.1v and is done quite regularly. 70rps id achievable on a 11.1v and DSG (Dual Sector Gear). So when going for high speed, you have to ask yourself, is it worth going up to a 14.8v, or maybe switch over to a DSG.

This is mostly true, but personally, under absolutely no circumstances would I suggest that anyone at a beginner (or even some intermediate) level of airsoft tech experience go within 10 miles of a DSG.

 

There are 2 things you need to consider here:

 

1) you're going for higher speed, and with great speed comes great responsibility :a-laugh: ... but seriously, I don't recommend venturing very far beyond 35rps unless you have some good experience under your belt. This is because of the physical forces involved in moving the piston/geartrain at those rates of fire. You'll recall that f=m*a, so as the rotational velocity of the sector gear increases as it's striking the piston each revolution to draw it back, the force curve is not linear... it's parabolic. That is why people correct AoE, swiss-cheese their pistons, ditch ball-bearings, and reinforce their gear racks in high speed setups - to keep the piston or gears from blowing up!

 

2) yes the motors can run on 14.8v or even 18.5v batteries (as long as your wiring/MOSFET can handle it), but it WILL stress the hell out of that motor and shorten it's life. This is for 2 reasons: 1: We're talking about brushed motors here, so the charring on the brushes and comm will be exaggerated, and 2: Excessive heat kills magnets, and neodymium are particularly vulnerable. Now, it's unlikely that you'll hit the curie point and lose all magnetism, but it's definitely possible to reach up past maximum operating temperatures, at which irreversible losses will occur. How much additional wear and stress depends largely on your usage (don't empty entire mags all at once, etc...) and how strenuous your setup is.

 

Generally, people who know how to take their motor apart to clean it and keep it nice and fresh, and know how to use it such that it's not overly stressful can get away with using batteries like that, but degradation will occur sooner as a result.

Edited by buppus

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So, in short, increasing the voltage to increase ROF (as opposed to using high speed gears) isn't necessary since high speed gears are actually durable enough to withstand the load...? Then yes--why shorten the life of your motor for no reason. Then again, you can buy 4 SHS or Element high-torque motors for the price of a single Siegetek gearset, and you don't have to break open the gearbox to do a lot of work. Kind of seems like it would be a personal preference?

 

As for me, I used 40 rps as an example. I did some very minor upgrades to my gun (mosfet, 11.1v lipo and a magnum a to z) that yielded me 32 rps. I have to say that (to me) any rof higher than that is just wasting bb's. Unfortunately, the Systema last all fo two days, and I just recevied my replacement (Element Ultra Torque) int he mail. Major9 estimated I'd get 25-28 rps with it, and primarily wondered if I could get the extra 5-8 rps by using a 14.8 lipo as opposed to breaking into my gearbox.

 

I do still have one questions that I don't think was answered. All of the high-speed Siegetek gearsets I have seen are for version 2 and 3 gearboxes. Do they make any high speed sets for version 6? Or are there any suppliers out there that make high speed chrome-moly sets for a version 6 gearbox? And recommendations on manufacturers?

 

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Buppus--you mentioned ditching the ball bearings in the gearbox for high-speed setups. I always thought ball bearings increased the gb reliability, and the larger the bearings the better (my gs came with 8mm... and I think you can find 9mm now..?). If they dump the ball bearings, what do they use in its place?

Edited by JonathanEngr

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Use solid bushings. They are much more durable than bearings. Also, the 9mm bearings really aren't 9mm. The bearing is the same size as the 8mm, but they increase the race size so it measures at 9mm. You get no additional load handling capability with them, and have very few replacement options.

 

RiotSC does make V6 gears, and so to several other companies. If you look around on Ehobby Asia, you should be able to find some.

 

Buppus, perhaps I should have made a disclaimer. I know it would be a really bad idea to run a M150+ on HS gears. I was more getting at the fact that you can run a 400fps and even a 450fps setup on HS gears without an issue. A lot of people seem to think that you can't have high FPS and high ROF.

Edited by airborne101

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Kinda, sorta off topic here, but got the Element Ultra Torque Long type motor installed and gave it a quick test on Audacity. Dead-on 28 rps with stock gears and an 11.1 Lipo battery currently at 11.43 volts. I have the fps selector screwed out to roughly 1/3 of minimum fps (which, from videos I've seen, changes the fps from 360 to 410 with a stock spring, so probably around 375 to 380'ish fps). I am tickled, yes I am!

 

Speaking of AoE, on a few of the reviews I read G&G actually send this gun out with the second tooth removed for clearance. One would assume that maybe they corrected for AoE (or why would clearance be an issue?), but I really have no idea if they put the spacer in the cylinder ( If Star Folder sees this, or anyone else who has opened the gear case, maybe they'll know if it comes with correct AoE). That's one thing I have not done to date--open the gearbox. You can, however, see the gears perfectly when the motor cage "swings" out, and from visual inspection, I can't imagine getting the gears any more in line than they are right now.

 

So--RiotSC makes good gears? I really want a minimal improvement. So if I drop from 18.72 to 16.0, my rate of fire should be ((18.72/16) * 28), or roughly 32-33'ish rps? That would be just perfect. The good thing is I can adjust my rof easily by popping in a 7.4v lipo if I feel I'm just wasting bb's in any particular scenario. I've even toyed with the idea of getting a few smaller (1100 mah) lipos--one at 11.1v and one at 7.4v--and mounting a selector switch. I cut out much of the internal webbing, so my battery compartment is *huge* (a 2650 lipo 30c fits in with room to spare). Pretty unnecessary, I know, but I love to tinker :-) Heck--with 1100 mah lipos I could just about fit a 7.4, 11.1 AND a 14.8.

 

Anyway, one last note. I've tried to use the adjustment screw with the motors to make sure the gears mesh well. Witht he Systema the whole assembly just sounded rough. I know I had the gears set well enough, so maybe it was the motor? I installed the Element motor, made a few adjustments, and this thing just sounds so smooth. Even more-so than the stock G&G. Are Element motors quieter, or did I perhaps not have the other motors adjusted correctly to mesh with the gears? LOVE the way the gun is sounding and feeling.

 

 

 

 

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Several companies remove the second tooth on the piston but none of them put a spacer in to correct AoE.

 

Your ROF conversion seem correct. RiotSC doesn't make 16:1 gears, however SHS does. They are cheap and work well.

 

It is a common misconception that a motor is a drop in upgrade. It is not. You really need to reshim your gun when you change motors. This is to get the pinion/bevel gear mesh right. Adjusting the motor height only does so much. The Element motor probably has specs that make it fit much better with your current shimming than the Systema did.

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Glad you've got good results with the Element, the smoothness is likely just luck - the pinion gear really likes the shimming of your bevel gear :)

 

I've never seen a stock gun come with AoE pre-adjusted, but it's actually pretty common for manufacturers to leave the 2nd tooth off of their piston molds these days - more because it's unnecessary and can cause clearance issues relating to compatibility with upgrade parts, and because they are starting to realize that a lot of people do the AoE mod, so why not save some plastic?

 

I believe the G2010 takes standard v2/3 gears even though it uses a v6 box, you should double check that though. For your purposes, I would just buy some SHS 16:1 gears, it's really only worth it to go Siegetek if you really want to go high speed and high fps. Personally I would personally only go for his 10:1 set, even though there are applications where other sets are appropriate.

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Well, I definitely need to buy a shim set. You see severalsets that comes with 0.15mm and 0.3mm, but I guess it's best to buy a kit with 0.1mm shims. Now--it would seem to me that a shim is a shim, but I thought that about a *lot* of things and was wrong. Is there any material type and/or manufacturer that makes the best ones?

 

I guess my fear with shimming is the "wobble". I've watched several shim jobs on Youtube, and they have so much wobble while being out of the case that it amazes me they can get them straight. I assume once you've shimmed from the motor gear and continued through the remaining gears, you place shims on the other shafts to the opposite casing. This also worries me, as if you put entirely too many shims, sure--your gearbox won't close very well. But if you don't place enough shims, the gears could get out of alignment very quickly. Is there a way to press on the shaft outside of the gearcase to make sure the shaft doesn't move? (I never really paid attention before).

 

So--the only time to *really* go with hardened gearsets is when you really drop in ratios (like the 10:1). But other gears like SHS 16:1 sets will hold up well to... what? 400 fps at 40 rps? Buppus--I think I saw where you had a setup with an fps of 460'ish and a rof of 40'ish. Any insights on how you got there?

 

I did notice the discussion on the dsg's. My concern with them is spring return. Would the piston have time enough to return before it engages the pistion again? I assume this is where short-stroking comes into play?

 

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Any advantage to the gearsets that come bracketed together?

Edited by JonathanEngr

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Just push on the gearshaft with a thin screwdriver to check the sideplay or "wobble". I can vouche for the strength of SHS gearsets, my 18:1 set is the only gears I haven't been able to break, so I would think they are pretty strong.

 

It doesn't really matter what brand of shims you buy, just buy one or several sets that contain various sizes. Gluing the bushings to the GB shell might also be a good idea, to prevent them from rotating in the shell and widen the hole.

Edited by Lefse

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When you shim, make sure you close and screw the gearbox shell together. This will help you determine if there is too much play or if you shimmed to tight. It isn't hard. Just tedious and time consuming. There is a guide in my sig that shows you how to do it properly.

 

With a DSG, you have to remember that it has 2 sets of 8 teeth. Not the normal 15 or whatever. This means it is effectively short stroked already. I have yet to hear of a pre-engagement issue with a DSG because of this, as well as the fact that you have to use a more powerful spring to make up for the power lost due to the short stroked piston/sector gear.

 

 

Are you talking about the Modify ones that come preshimed and all you do is drop them in? No. Those things aren't very good. You should always shim the gears yourself. You will do a much better job. Modify gears suck to begin with anyways.

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