Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ZaCkOX

Does this mean the motor can't pull the spring?

Recommended Posts

I was downgrading my DSG to run a spare red VFC motor. When I pull the trigger the piston goes back but it sounds like the motor stops and then the piston goes forward. I know the ARL is installed. My 35amp fuse doesn't blow and I keep trying to fire semi. I was wondering if the pinion to bevel is too tight. I checked multiple times before soldering the motor wires but everytime I reinserted the motor with soldered wires the bevel seemed to be tight. I have a hidden hole to check the final work.

 

I was running a 11.1 volt 2200mah definitely enough for the motor. I have never seen this behavior before so I wonder if the motor just cannot run in the setup. If the bevel and pinion were too tight I think there would be terrible noise and the piston wouldn't even move. From what I can tell, it is not far enough forward to lock the ARL on a bevel tooth.

 

SHS M170

Low resistance wiring

VFC red motor (used it before in serious setups and the motor performed well)

 

All gears are shimmed, move easily even when I close the gearbox. I always double check.

 

I also reshimmed the bevel according to this motor's pinion. With the old G&P M180 Satan motor the gun had a crisp pull. But I can't fit a big enough battery on the dang gun to run that motor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A good old JG Blue or a Lonex A2 should get the job done very well, and will be more efficient than the G&P motor.

 

Yea except I didn't want to buy another motor... argh. What size battery do those run on? Would a 11.1 volt 20c 2200mah be ok with those? Or better yet would it be better to just keep the Satan motor in and run a smaller voltage? Like a 7.4 volt 20c 5000mah? I am not sure if the voltage matters for efficiency. I know voltage will increase the rate of fire but does the motor run efficiently on amperage and enough volts or the watts altogether?

 

Really I can't find any information on the G&P M180 Satan Motor and it seems very few people run that motor. What would be best to purchase to run tests on it? Amperage is probably 60amp+. I ran my Sig Shorty 556 on a 11.1 volt 20c 5000mah over the weekend and it seems that is what made it efficient.

Edited by ZaCkOX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You just need a li-po that can deliver more than 30 amps really. The weakest batteries I use are 11.1v 56A li-po's, I also have a 7.4v 63A li-po. If the motor won't run properly on a battery like that, then there's either something wrong, the motor is under powered or is just really poorly made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You just need a li-po that can deliver more than 30 amps really. The weakest batteries I use are 11.1v 56A li-po's, I also have a 7.4v 63A li-po. If the motor won't run properly on a battery like that, then there's either something wrong, the motor is under powered or is just really poorly made.

 

If I ran the motor with 42amps and then used a battery that supplied 100amps same voltage and the rate of fire went up then I wasn't supplying enough amperage right? I don't see how I am going to make room for the battery. The small fixed stock is just cramped for space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the thing:

 

You can back yourself in a corner saying "argh I didn't want to buy or use this or that" but the bottom line is you have to do something because your gun won't cycle. The fact that your lipo can't cook off your 35A fuse tells me its basically fried or at the very least its specs were grossly optimistic because even a pathetic little POS buffer tube lipo should be able to source enough A in order to trip that fuse when your motor is stalled (a dead short). So you're on the hook for a new battery regardless. While you're at it you might want to break out the multimeter and see if you have any points of resistance in your system which could otherwise be sapping your performance.

 

As to your motor, it is by every measure unsuitable to run under a DSG. It will produce less peak torque than most neodymium "high speed" motors. It just quite frankly doesn't have a big enough pair of balls to be worth using.

 

So really it looks like you're on the hook for a new battery AND a new motor. Remember you build your gun around your gearbox, not vice versa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here is the thing:

 

You can back yourself in a corner saying "argh I didn't want to buy or use this or that" but the bottom line is you have to do something because your gun won't cycle. The fact that your lipo can't cook off your 35A fuse tells me its basically fried or at the very least its specs were grossly optimistic because even a pathetic little POS buffer tube lipo should be able to source enough A in order to trip that fuse when your motor is stalled (a dead short). So you're on the hook for a new battery regardless. While you're at it you might want to break out the multimeter and see if you have any points of resistance in your system which could otherwise be sapping your performance.

 

As to your motor, it is by every measure unsuitable to run under a DSG. It will produce less peak torque than most neodymium "high speed" motors. It just quite frankly doesn't have a big enough pair of balls to be worth using.

 

So really it looks like you're on the hook for a new battery AND a new motor. Remember you build your gun around your gearbox, not vice versa.

 

Build around the gearbox? The problem is lack of space for a battery. That seems to be totally not gearbox related. I see other people tape the batteries on their front end and stocks but my problem is OCD. I can't stand that.

 

I checked the resistance multiple times before installing the motor and after. It is not the problem. There is no short in the line. Even the endbell was modified to fit the motors without creating a short.

 

As for why the fuse didn't blow, I think I didn't hold the trigger long enough. If I hold the trigger oh yea it will blow a fuse. From what I saw the motor spun but stopped and then the cycle went in reverse. I pressed the trigger 5 times with the same behavior every time. The distance it traveled was quite short.

 

Multimeter says .4 for resistance overall. I checked everything individually and that was the same number I got earlier.

 

Well money has to be spent so what is the best route? Lonex A2? And then what battery so I can compare dimension. Just trying to weigh my options... new battery might not even supply the G&P Satan efficiently.

Edited by ZaCkOX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Build around the gearbox? The problem is lack of space for a battery. That seems to be totally not gearbox related. I see other people tape the batteries on their front end and stocks but my problem is OCD. I can't stand that.

 

I checked the resistance multiple times before installing the motor and after. It is not the problem. There is no short in the line. Even the endbell was modified to fit the motors without creating a short.

 

As for why the fuse didn't blow, I think I didn't hold the trigger long enough. If I hold the trigger oh yea it will blow a fuse. From what I saw the motor spun but stopped and then the cycle went in reverse. I pressed the trigger 5 times with the same behavior every time. The distance it traveled was quite short.

 

Multimeter says .4 for resistance overall. I checked everything individually and that was the same number I got earlier.

 

Well money has to be spent so what is the best route? Lonex A2? And then what battery so I can compare dimension. Just trying to weigh my options... new battery might not even supply the G&P Satan efficiently.

I run a Lonex A1 on an 11.1v 1200mah 20c (buffer tube lipo, I hate battery bags etc) and 13:1 gears on an m120 motor. It goes 2.3k rounds before the battery drops to dangerous levels.

I also run a Lonex A2 on a DSG (m190 spring 14:1 DSG) and use that same buffer tube lipo and do 45-50 rps. Lonex A2 even on low power has the means to use any battery, really. I'm only buying Lonex motors now. I sold all my old systema magnums (laugh if you want) and all of my g&p m180's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When in doubt, get a Lonex A2, it WILL pull your setup, even with a moderately powered li-po. If your li-po can provide 30A or more, it will easily pull it.

 

I wonder how the new Titan A2 performs compared the old one that you guys have. It seems like the specs of the old A2 is similar to the new A3

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I measured the space available in the fixed baby stock including with the mosfet being in there:

 

100mm by 40mm by 20mm

 

Yea... shopping a lipo for that available type of space... sucks. According to the data on the new Titan A2, it uses 35amps-ish? Or maybe I don't know how to read the data sheet.

 

http://clandestineairsoft.com/index.php?ma...products_id=272

 

Even then honestly I am still screwed on space. Suggestions on a lipo for that space?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lefse, I love that brand of battery. I have a couple and that size seems perfect. I wonder if that is enough amps to run the Satan motor. I would rather just run that crazy thing instead of a Lonex. The trigger response and sound is so crisp, never heard anything like it.

 

I wonder how many shots I can get out of that. The power down is 10.1 volts. I need to run a clamp amp meter and see what amperage is used.

 

JGM, the gun is a M4 stubby. G&P externals.

 

Edit: Lefse, is this HobbyKing place for real? The lipo price is unbelievable. I could buy multiple ones, even a 66amp discharge that is almost the same size and Turnigy brand!! I didn't think the size was even possible.

Edited by ZaCkOX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lefse, I love that brand of battery. I have a couple and that size seems perfect. I wonder if that is enough amps to run the Satan motor. I would rather just run that crazy thing instead of a Lonex. The trigger response and sound is so crisp, never heard anything like it.

 

I wonder how many shots I can get out of that. The power down is 10.1 volts. I need to run a clamp amp meter and see what amperage is used.

 

JGM, the gun is a M4 stubby. G&P externals.

I can run a G&P m180 (my motor) on either my 11.1 1200mah 20c or 11.1v 1300mah 25c (both buffer tube lipos) no mosfet. haven't melted the contacts yet. It may be power hungry, but not like xcylone motors...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can run a G&P m180 (my motor) on either my 11.1 1200mah 20c or 11.1v 1300mah 25c (both buffer tube lipos) no mosfet. haven't melted the contacts yet. It may be power hungry, but not like xcylone motors...

 

Yea I ran it too but if a fuse was used it would always trip. For example, 42amp discharge, put 35 reset fuse, blowing. Besides that, not safe to run non-fuse protection. I even tripped a 50amp blade fuse with my big Turnigy lipo running 100amp. I am pretty sure the amperage is above 50 somewhere. This is why I messaged G&P asking for motor information.

 

Over the weekend game I removed fuse protection because I didn't have a higher amp fuse. Nothing bad happened and same with running my Tenergy small lipo. However if the fuse is blowing it proves amperage is running high and something bad could happen to the lipo. I would rather run good protection and the right one. The stock is opened by a flat head screw driver and closed that way. It would be a bomb trap if something bad were to happen so I need to protect the electrical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yea I ran it too but if a fuse was used it would always trip. For example, 42amp discharge, put 35 reset fuse, blowing. Besides that, not safe to run non-fuse protection. I even tripped a 50amp blade fuse with my big Turnigy lipo running 100amp. I am pretty sure the amperage is above 50 somewhere. This is why I messaged G&P asking for motor information.

 

Over the weekend game I removed fuse protection because I didn't have a higher amp fuse. Nothing bad happened and same with running my Tenergy small lipo. However if the fuse is blowing it proves amperage is running high and something bad could happen to the lipo. I would rather run good protection and the right one. The stock is opened by a flat head screw driver and closed that way. It would be a bomb trap if something bad were to happen so I need to protect the electrical.

 

If you're tripping a 30A fuse, there's something wrong, some resistance somewhere (electrical or mechanical). I have a 20A fuse in my P90 and a mag dump with a 14.8v does not trip it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yea I ran it too but if a fuse was used it would always trip. For example, 42amp discharge, put 35 reset fuse, blowing. Besides that, not safe to run non-fuse protection. I even tripped a 50amp blade fuse with my big Turnigy lipo running 100amp. I am pretty sure the amperage is above 50 somewhere. This is why I messaged G&P asking for motor information.

 

Over the weekend game I removed fuse protection because I didn't have a higher amp fuse. Nothing bad happened and same with running my Tenergy small lipo. However if the fuse is blowing it proves amperage is running high and something bad could happen to the lipo. I would rather run good protection and the right one. The stock is opened by a flat head screw driver and closed that way. It would be a bomb trap if something bad were to happen so I need to protect the electrical.

I've been running all of my guns on 11.1v lipos ever since I started airsofting. (started out on a g&p moe m4) and I've never had anything short or ruin my motor. I never run fuses. Not even on my 14.8v set-up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you're tripping a 30A fuse, there's something wrong, some resistance somewhere (electrical or mechanical). I have a 20A fuse in my P90 and a mag dump with a 14.8v does not trip it

 

Yea I always thought so myself. However I inspected the motor and couldn't figure out why. Remove the fuse and nothing bad happens. Resistance still reads ".4" through the entire line. Maybe something is going on with the motor but both G&P Satans I have do it. All other motors can't even blow 10 and 20amps fuses even with my same lipos. I shim all the guns the same. The strange thing is it won't blow immediately and other times it does. I could be shooting 10 bursts before the fuse will blow or immediately. I really thought the motor was demanding a lot from the battery somehow.

 

There is no mechanical resistance at all. I can even show in a video there is not. The motor is gapped from the bevel and placed into position with slight teeth movement. Shoot the gun, ROF is a little slower than normal, adjust the motor a tiny bit higher, ROF increases because it is the right position. I even tried the motor at different positions with more free movement and closer non-free movement.

 

I went from terminal connectors to screw-in terminals to soldering the wires. All wiring is low resistance. I even heat shrinked all areas within the gearbox and dremeled out space to stop any clipping. All connections are deans. I want to agree with Blotto and just remove the fuse protection entirely but it doesn't make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
is this HobbyKing place for real? The lipo price is unbelievable. I could buy multiple ones, even a 66amp discharge that is almost the same size and Turnigy brand!! I didn't think the size was even possible.

Yes, hobbyking is a great place, I have ordered from there several times and never had a problem. The shipping is a little expensive though if you need stuff from the hong kong warehouse.

Edited by unlimitedRA1N

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maybe you can try with lower spring ?

 

I tried, but still fuse goes off then my spring bent from the SHS crap piston rack.

 

Edit: See the strange thing is the condition only happens to my Satan motors and in both guns I run them. They both show same problem. Even pinions were changed. I did multiple tests and eventually I just removed all fuse protection. But I still don't feel that is safe. Maybe the amps doesn't go up to 100amp and that is why my big battery doesn't have a problem. I am too afraid to run my small ones without fuse protection. I am totally baffled by the whole thing because I work on a lot of guns, lots, and this is the first time I ever had a problem with using fuses. The whole reason why I thought downgrading would make it go away. Something could be wrong with the motors and I have no idea.

 

Woh, finally found something: http://forum.mnairsoft.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=28181

 

Maybe I should take out that G&P motor and just get a Lonex A2 Titan.

Edited by ZaCkOX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can highly recommend the A2. I can dump entire 330 round hicaps in one trigger pull with mine with a 63A 11.1v li-po, and it barely even heats up. G&P motors are good, but Lonex motors are amazing. It has also never tripped the 24A polyfuse I've installed. I haven't really had any issues with Hobbyking. There was a slight issue with the payment of my latest order, but they took care of it when I inquired about it, so nothing bad to report. And yes, their prices are amazingly low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
is this HobbyKing place for real? The lipo price is unbelievable. I could buy multiple ones, even a 66amp discharge that is almost the same size and Turnigy brand!! I didn't think the size was even possible.

 

You did not know about HobbyKing the whole time? lol. Anyway, buy the ones from the US warehouse so you don't have to wait over 2-3 weeks to get your battery, 2-3 days instead :)

 

 

 

Maybe I should take out that G&P motor and just get a Lonex A2 Titan.

 

^^ This ^^ . I was gonna say that the culprit is the motor because it draws too much current. That shows how inefficient it is

 

And I always run fuses in my gun JUST IN CASE something goes wrong, usually 24A. I have seen a lipo catching on fire during a game, it is not pretty. I'd rather pop a $1 fuse instead of losing my face, plus with PTC fuses you really have no reason not to run one. That goes for you blotto ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmmm...

 

My Lonex A2 definitely heats up when I shoot it, be it from just semi auto. Running RiotSC 14:09 ratio gears too.

 

It runs warm, but no where near as hot as the SHS high torque.

My A2's will get warm after prolonged use, but my KA high torque motors (SHS rebrand I think) got really hot after prolonged use. Made the grip nice and warm in the winter though hehe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea I think I'm going to try a Lonex Titan A2 and a new lipo. I would rather dump a magazine then have increased ROF and something bad happen to my lipo. I really think there is something going on with the Satan motors. I am going to take one to a friend and run some other tests if possible. It was the only motor I wouldn't run a fuse and that really means something is not right.

 

Yea I didn't know about HobbyKing. I was talking to one of my close airsoft friends and he didn't even mention that site when I was talking about getting a new battery. He said he forgot. I don't know how I never seen it before. I been in and out of battery threads many times. I don't ever remember that site mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, the best way to get high ROF from what I've seen and done tech work on some of my friend's AEG's is just to install a Lonex A2 and then install a MOSFET with the ability to program the motor to run at 100% speed on semi, but have the motor run at 100% on full auto for only a fraction of the second then break off to like 60% motor speed to still get the ROF down to stock levels (23-25 RPS).

 

I don't see why you wouldn't want high ROF though, from what I've experienced high ROF = less BB's consumed. For instance:

 

-Guy at 150 ft.

-Shoot 20 RPS

-BB deviation makes BB's fly everywhere, no hit

-Guy runs off and you have now wasted X amount of BB's depending on trigger pull

 

-Guy at 150 ft.

-Light him up with a gun shooting 30+ RPS with a fraction of a second trigger pull

-BB deviation takes place, but one BB hits him

-Effectively taking him out, no BB's potentially wasted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know, the best way to get high ROF from what I've seen and done tech work on some of my friend's AEG's is just to install a Lonex A2 and then install a MOSFET with the ability to program the motor to run at 100% speed on semi, but have the motor run at 100% on full auto for only a fraction of the second then break off to like 60% motor speed to still get the ROF down to stock levels (23-25 RPS).

 

I don't see why you wouldn't want high ROF though, from what I've experienced high ROF = less BB's consumed. For instance:

 

-Guy at 150 ft.

-Shoot 20 RPS

-BB deviation makes BB's fly everywhere, no hit

-Guy runs off and you have now wasted X amount of BB's depending on trigger pull

 

-Guy at 150 ft.

-Light him up with a gun shooting 30+ RPS with a fraction of a second trigger pull

-BB deviation takes place, but one BB hits him

-Effectively taking him out, no BB's potentially wasted

high rof is fun. thats why we do it. I own several gbbr's and I prefer high rof aeg's any day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You did not know about HobbyKing the whole time? lol. Anyway, buy the ones from the US warehouse so you don't have to wait over 2-3 weeks to get your battery, 2-3 days instead :)

 

 

 

 

 

^^ This ^^ . I was gonna say that the culprit is the motor because it draws too much current. That shows how inefficient it is

 

And I always run fuses in my gun JUST IN CASE something goes wrong, usually 24A. I have seen a lipo catching on fire during a game, it is not pretty. I'd rather pop a $1 fuse instead of losing my face, plus with PTC fuses you really have no reason not to run one. That goes for you blotto ;)

Never (:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know, the best way to get high ROF from what I've seen and done tech work on some of my friend's AEG's is just to install a Lonex A2 and then install a MOSFET with the ability to program the motor to run at 100% speed on semi, but have the motor run at 100% on full auto for only a fraction of the second then break off to like 60% motor speed to still get the ROF down to stock levels (23-25 RPS).

 

I don't see why you wouldn't want high ROF though, from what I've experienced high ROF = less BB's consumed. For instance:

 

-Guy at 150 ft.

-Shoot 20 RPS

-BB deviation makes BB's fly everywhere, no hit

-Guy runs off and you have now wasted X amount of BB's depending on trigger pull

 

-Guy at 150 ft.

-Light him up with a gun shooting 30+ RPS with a fraction of a second trigger pull

-BB deviation takes place, but one BB hits him

-Effectively taking him out, no BB's potentially wasted

 

For reliability reasons the gun was going to be made doing burst fire anyway. The trigger pull is very light and response is insane. You see the gun pointed at you but cannot dodge it.

 

Easily shoots 65-70 RPS. With the A2 I'll probably drop down to 55?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not necessarily, depends on the gear ratio and such. Exactly what is the gear ratio in your setup?

 

14.09:1

http://clandestineairsoft.com/index.php?ma...products_id=112

 

Spring is M170

 

I already bought a Lonex Titan A2 and a 56amp Turnigy Discharge Lipo. I am going buy a Watt's Up Watt Meter too. I cut down the shaft of the VFC red motor and put it in my Ares G36. It fit perfect with a Guarder pinion so maybe it was meant to be.

Edited by ZaCkOX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to my calculations the ROF should be about the same. I'm not sure how much stress a half stroked M170 does compared to an M120, but based on the ROF my A2's do with an M120 full stroke, the ROF will theoretically be 74rps. I doubt the ROF will be quite that high, but I would expect it to go past 60.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
According to my calculations the ROF should be about the same. I'm not sure how much stress a half stroked M170 does compared to an M120, but based on the ROF my A2's do with an M120 full stroke, the ROF will theoretically be 74rps. I doubt the ROF will be quite that high, but I would expect it to go past 60.

 

So we are considering the G&P M180 ROF to Lonex Titan A2 to be about the same? I know price doesn't mean everything but I would expect the A2 to be blown out of the water. I just purchased a Watt's Up so I guess I'll be the first to compare them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know there is a slight possibility that with the Lonex motor you're paying for the actual motor and not the brand? The Lonex A2 is a VERY strong motor, some people over on ASM have apparently pulled M150 springs on 10:1 full stroke setups with them. Copied directly from a post in a thread about Lonex motors: "45 rps on m150 with 10:1 gears and 11.1v 30c 3000mah on my A2." So an M170 on 14:1 half stroke gears should be a piece of cake. What exactly is it that would make the G&P M180 superior really?

 

Here's a link to the thread if you have an ASM account: http://forums.airsoftmechanics.com/index.p...pic,8128.0.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know there is a slight possibility that with the Lonex motor you're paying for the actual motor and not the brand? The Lonex A2 is a VERY strong motor, some people over on ASM have apparently pulled M150 springs on 10:1 full stroke setups with them. Copied directly from a post in a thread about Lonex motors: "45 rps on m150 with 10:1 gears and 11.1v 30c 3000mah on my A2." So an M170 on 14:1 half stroke gears should be a piece of cake. What exactly is it that would make the G&P M180 superior really?

 

Well I was thinking torque, speed, efficiency, and response. I knew I was paying for the brand but I was just looking for the best motor overall. The G&P M180 should be that but we know higher cost doesn't always = better. I doubt the Lonex Titan A2 will beat the Satan but if it comes close or does then I'll be the first to state the Satan isn't worth sh*t.

 

The biggest beef I had with purchasing a Satan was I knew information about the motor wasn't available.

 

How many techs are running a Watt Meter to measure amperage off motors? And then include that they have a Satan M180? G&P might not of listed the numbers because they are not that great. But any new product considered to be one of the best should have information.

 

If the A2 is really that amazing, $45 is a steal. So many motors are priced that range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...