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What happened to Tokyo Marui?

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Just look at the cost of these TM guns.

http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/Tokyo_Marui_...t_Guns_s/76.htm

Make sure to read the last part of each guns description where it states:

"Note: Because of the stock, non-reinforced nature of Tokyo Marui products, we do not recommend using a 9.6v battery in this AEG"

This is comical and proves the impossibility to place TM guns in the category of Elite Airsoft guns just because they charge Elite gun prices.

 

There is just no justification for these prices for what you get.

It's laughable.

Hard - more like impossible- to have a convincing argument to persuade anyone who has ever opened up an AEG gearbox to think that TM provides equal quality to match cost offered by the product.

 

We are not just talking about TM vs China Clones.

TM is out done by almost all the manufacturers out there now.

Even Crossman might pass them by in the years - months- to come.

 

I pretty much agree with most of what you said. TMs may be fantastic guns, but when you consider the value, the cost of the product to the physical product itself, it just isn't worth it. Although I haven't handled the newer versions. However, for that reason alone, ACMs will just keep eating away at the market and keep improving while they do so.

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It's just Tm got a lot of cons that people just don't like

 

Con:

Plastic body

Expensive

Low fps <280 (people think fps is range but it isn't)

 

 

Pro: 1 of the best hop up

Internal is consider one of the best. Can last for years sometimes decades before breaking if maintain properly.

Even through it's low fps, it can pretty much outrange most stock guns right now.

 

On the other hand,

People can buy a cheap Jg(Rebrand of TM) and use the extra $150-200 to pretty much beast out a gun with a lot of good parts. Lonex, shs, etc...

 

The new tm seems pretty good. They made a new motor called Hyper Eg3000 which has insane ROF.... Stock can go around 25-30 ROF or maybe even higher if I remember correctly.

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It's just Tm got a lot of cons that people just don't like

 

Con:

Plastic body

Expensive

Low fps <280 (people think fps is range but it isn't)

 

 

Pro: 1 of the best hop up

Internal is consider one of the best. Can last for years sometimes decades before breaking if maintain properly.

Even through it's low fps, it can pretty much outrange most stock guns right now.

 

On the other hand,

People can buy a cheap Jg(Rebrand of TM) and use the extra $150-200 to pretty much beast out a gun with a lot of good parts. Lonex, shs, etc...

 

The new tm seems pretty good. They made a new motor called Hyper Eg3000 which has insane ROF.... Stock can go around 25-30 ROF or maybe even higher if I remember correctly.

 

You basically mentioned the points I have been saying for a while now. Get a cheaper gun, its more affordable to use from the start, and you can use your money on GB parts, barrels, an R-Hop, Lipo battery, charger, and still come out with more money left than if you bought a TM or other higher quality, higher price model. And it'll perform better as of all the upgrades.

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You basically mentioned the points I have been saying for a while now. Get a cheaper gun, its more affordable to use from the start, and you can use your money on GB parts, barrels, an R-Hop, Lipo battery, charger, and still come out with more money left than if you bought a TM or other higher quality, higher price model. And it'll perform better as of all the upgrades.

 

Unfortunately, 90% of the new player base can't do these upgrades themselves and the 9% that think they can screw it up even more...

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Unfortunately, 90% of the new player base can't do these upgrades themselves and the 9% that think they can screw it up even more...

 

 

This is a good point. We leave out a big portion of players (who probably arent even members to represent themselves on here) who are unable to do the upgrades. It is true that is it's more cost effective to do these upgrades but not everyone has the acquired skill.

 

Buying a used marui to have a reliable gun run for quite a bit until you figure out how serious you want to be with airsoft wouldnt be a bad idea (especially if these used maruis are ranging from $100-170). I'm all for airsoft players learning how to tune up your own gun eventually and learning out the mechanics but it can be discouraging and overwhelming for those who start off.

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Just look at the cost of these TM guns.

http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/Tokyo_Marui_...t_Guns_s/76.htm

Make sure to read the last part of each guns description where it states:

"Note: Because of the stock, non-reinforced nature of Tokyo Marui products, we do not recommend using a 9.6v battery in this AEG"

This is comical and proves the impossibility to place TM guns in the category of Elite Airsoft guns just because they charge Elite gun prices.

 

There is just no justification for these prices for what you get.

It's laughable.

Hard - more like impossible- to have a convincing argument to persuade anyone who has ever opened up an AEG gearbox to think that TM provides equal quality to match cost offered by the product.

 

We are not just talking about TM vs China Clones.

TM is out done by almost all the manufacturers out there now.

Even Crossman might pass them by in the years - months- to come.

But this is intended. You don't need those batteries in a TM - they're built to be all stock for their market (Japanese). A TM MP7 AEG with its little 7,2v NIMH is almost as fast shooting as a Well MP7 AEP with lipo mod (7,4v LIPO). Their stock internals are bar none when it comes to the local restrictions in their intended market (1j limit). TM is best at what they do, but what they do isn't always what people outside Japan want. See the difference? TM is clearly best at their thing, but most of us don't want their thing - we want higher m/s (FPS is for colonials only, sorry chaps), steel and wood furniture.

 

Hence this discussion of "best" is moot. Because there is nothing "best" in general, it's subjective and depending on your premises and needs.

 

So, it's intended that they're "taken over" by others outside of Japan.

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But this is intended. You don't need those batteries in a TM - they're built to be all stock for their market (Japanese). A TM MP7 AEG with its little 7,2v NIMH is almost as fast shooting as a Well MP7 AEP with lipo mod (7,4v LIPO). Their stock internals are bar none when it comes to the local restrictions in their intended market (1j limit). TM is best at what they do, but what they do isn't always what people outside Japan want. See the difference? TM is clearly best at their thing, but most of us don't want their thing - we want higher m/s (FPS is for colonials only, sorry chaps), steel and wood furniture.

 

Hence this discussion of "best" is moot. Because there is nothing "best" in general, it's subjective and depending on your premises and needs.

 

So, it's intended that they're "taken over" by others outside of Japan.

 

FPS is one part of many in the equation.

You could simply remove the higher FPS from the equation and other manufacturers are still leaving TM in the dust in quality, durability, performance, and price. Does anyone who has been in airsoft for at least couple of years and not a newbie really care about FPS that much?

FPS really only matters so much as having what you need for your own specific performance goal.

 

It's normal for almost all who are new to the sport / hobby of airsoft to think of FPS as the ultimate performance stat.

It is not long before most realize this isn't the case, and often far from it.

 

I realize TM's importance to the world of airsoft as the originator of the aeg.

I also understand who their niche market is.

The fact is TM is behind the Curve in the market that they created.

They simply haven't progressed and where they have, they are way late arriving in an increasingly over-crowded market.

Their reflection is getting smaller and smaller in the rear view mirror of the market place.

I do wish them well for the future, though.

 

 

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You could simply remove the higher FPS from the equation and other manufacturers are still leaving TM in the dust in quality, durability, performance, and price.

Could you site examples of TM products which you own, used for a while or at the very least have looked into that you found unsatisfactory and brought you to that conclusion?

 

Unless you're looking at 2nd hand guns that have been thoroughly enjoyed and possibly abused since 2002, TM now makes out of the box:

-high ROF AEGs on a measly 8.4V battery

-AEGs with recoil, blow back, and firing stop feature

Edited by renegadecow

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Could you site examples of TM products which you own, used for a while or at the very least have looked into that you found unsatisfactory and brought you to that conclusion?

 

Be glad to answer you question.

ZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOO TM guns have I owned.

 

I have a friend and another guy I have rolled with many times who own TM guns.

To hold and to shoot them is unimpressive at best.

Now, their guns are very old. I think 8 years or so.

They are heavily used and basically completely worn out.

This is probably not the best example of the brand, but these are the ones I have shot.

 

To be honest with you, given the prices TM charge for their AEG guns for what the consumer gets in return, I would just not buy a TM.

I would consider buying a used one maybe, but that is a reach, for me at least.

For those that know the ins and outs of working on airsoft guns and can simply build and assemble exactly what you want for a fraction of the cost, buying a AEG gun such as a TM doesn't make a lot of financial sense.

 

Now may I ask you a question?

How much money have you spent on TM guns in your arsenal?

 

Unless you're looking at 2nd hand guns that have been thoroughly enjoyed and possibly abused since 2002, TM now makes out of the box:

-high ROF AEGs on a measly 8.4V battery

-AEGs with recoil, blow back, and firing stop feature

 

I hope the best for the brand and hope they do well in the future.

Hopefully TM's price scale will parallel what they produce in the future, and not what they imagine they should charge for their products.

 

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Be glad to answer you question.

ZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOO TM guns have I owned.

 

I have a friend and another guy I have rolled with many times who own TM guns.

To hold and to shoot them is unimpressive at best.

Now, their guns are very old. I think 8 years or so.

They are heavily used and basically completely worn out.

 

Now may I ask you a question?

How much money have you spent on TM guns in your arsenal?

 

Well there you have it. You're comparing brand new china guns to TM guns nearly a decade old. Hold those against acm specimens of the same age and see the difference. To be honest it may be difficult to even find one that old that's still running. Newer ones maybe as they're generally built better but the cyma and JG back then were real bad.

 

For TMs I've bought, they weren't all too expensive in the past so I'll put down the year, model and price at the time:

2003 AUG LE (rail) $260

2004 AK47 $315

2006 Standalone M203 $170

2006 Uzi $266

2007 Detonics Combat Master $133

2010 FN 5-7 $160

 

Through the years I've also handled and serviced (I'm a part time gunsmith) pretty much every model TM there is except the the recoil shock models and that oddball Type 89 rifle. Comparing those to pretty much every acm model there is that I've also serviced, handled and even some own, I could say that TM really do make them better.

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Don't have much experience with AEGs, but in terms of their GBBs not many other companies can compare. They are superior to many in accuracy, range and durability. They have gone up in prices recently but the value of a product varies for different people. I personally think TMs come at a great value for what they are.

 

I personally am a fan of the TM G17. Stick a PGC kit on it and it will last forever.

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Be glad to answer you question.

ZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOO TM guns have I owned.

 

This makes you a double expert on TM guns vs other brands!!

 

 

Now may I ask you a question?

How much money have you spent on TM guns in your arsenal?

 

2004: TM P90 Reddot ($150, bought used. Upgraded to 400 FPS in 2005, still shoots 385-387 accurately, haven't opened it since it was upgraded in 2005)

2005: TM VSR-10 ($180, came with Scope mount and spare magazine. Upgraded it with everything (550 FPS), then sold it in 2007)

2012: TM M3 Shotgun ($75, short version) Was so beat up it looked like it was falling apart after 4 years of use from 3 previous owners. Still solid as a rock, NEVER malfunctioned despite running into walls with it, all 7 shells feed flawlessly, and sold it for $120 when I got tired of CQB. (Also out ranged any other shotgun on the field, proven in games)

2012: TM 4.3 HiCapa ($75. Used, and came with upgrades already (tightbore, spring guide, etc)

2012: TM VSR-10 (Have the itch to snipe again. $235 for a fully laylax'd out rifle shooting 500 FPS)

 

Every single one of those guns still works and performs flawlessly. (Even the shotgun, which is the most abused)

 

Comparatively:

2003: UHC NBB USP P8 ($45) bough ti, reapired it with a springer when it broke, threw it out when it broke again.

2003: KWA G26C. ($140) Blowback unit shattered the piston from itself due to pot metal and gas pressure. Kept the magazines.

2004: KSC G19 fully upgraded ($220) worked fine until lost at a game in 2010

2010: JG 614 ($140) bought used and gave to my girlfriend. Solid performer, but was fully upgraded by the same man who did my P90

2011: G&G Femme Fatale ($150) worked great the one time I used it. Gave it to a friend as a cool collector piece. Now belongs to his sister since my friend died in a car accident 5 week ago.

2011: JG Ika Zuchi ($100) bought used, had to spend more than $100 upgrading the gun to be a CQB beast (Using budget parts, SHS and such) Was a nightmare to work on.

2011: WE Tech SCAR with 4 Magazines ($225) Was a problem child from day 1. Sold for what I purchased it for because it was such a headache.

2011: Self Built M16 ($160) works fine, built myself

2011: Self built M4 with 2 uppers ($400) works great

2011-2012: 6 or 8 KWA Glocks. ($45-100 each) Always had issues with these. Sold all of mine before they became too difficult to fix due to poor aftermarket support. Some I picked up just to sell since people pay ridiculous prices for them.

2012: KJW 1911 MEU ($130) had to replace the entire upper slide and all components with TM/PDI to make it work well with green gas. Only KJW part left on the upper is the rear sight and screw.

 

 

I started playing airsoft back in 2003 in high school. My first AEG was a TM P90 Reddot bought off of a friend for $150 used. 9 years later that AEG still shoots beautifully. I quit airsoft in 2007 due to poor fields and games in my area at the time. (Norcal) I sold my TM VSR-10 for cash since I didn't care for it at the time, but kept my P90 and KSC G19. Picked up airsoft again in September 2010, got a JG 614 for only $140 with a battery and 2 HiCaps at a airsoft swap meet. Works great still, even been fallen onto (The weapon dead stopped 180lbs of me falling on the stock with the tip in a rock without breaking). The ONLY reason it didn't break is because the fellow who upgraded my P90 and this gun epoxxied the upper receiver down.

 

Since I got back into airsoft I've literally spent a few thousand dollars on guns and games. The above list isn't comprehensive. For example, I've owned at least 3 Grenade launchers (2 M203's and a EGLM) that aren't on that list. In my experience of buying guns, selling guns, fixing guns, and playing with guns on the field (I play at LEAST once a month, minimum), I love 2 kinds of guns the most. The ones I've built myself from scratch, picking every component, and my Tokyo Marui's I love my self built guns because I know I've trouble shot all of the problems out of them. This isn't always true, and they sometimes break on me, then I fix them. (My $400 self built M4 has broken at least twice and been inoperable) Comparatively, my TM's have never failed on me for any reason other that something silly happening. (Losing the butt plate to the P90 then the battery ripping the tamiya connector off)

 

 

So after over a hundred rated BST transactions on this forum, handeling more airsoft guns than most people see on fields (I also tech on sniper rifles at the local shop, and I do AEG's and GBB's when things are slow), and spending a few thousand dollars, TM's get my vote as one of the most reliable airsoft guns under normal use.

 

 

BTW, Being a shop tech, I can say with 100% truth that TM's come in for repairs the least compared to other brands. I always see TM clones though.

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FPS is one part of many in the equation.

You could simply remove the higher FPS from the equation and other manufacturers are still leaving TM in the dust in quality, durability, performance, and price. Does anyone who has been in airsoft for at least couple of years and not a newbie really care about FPS that much?

 

TM still definitely has the quality, durability, and performance. Price is a hit or miss depending if you find a bargain or absolutely need to buy it new. Price was never a problem for me obtaining maruis (with the exception of the recoil shocks) and they were worth more than the value I paid for.

 

I've owned a slightly higher number of maruis than clones/other companies (more like 65/35) but from my experience, marui guns were much more consistent in reliability and performance. I would have a random jg g36c that would last equally as long in some cases but thats after going through a handful of them. It's really a random hit or miss; however the correlation does exist for a reliable marui. The only thing I hate about maruis (like a decade ago) are their previous m4 models with barrel wobble, broken tabs, etc but that's no longer a problem with their new lineups. FPS can leave one wanting more sometimes but the trade off are three other characteristics mentioned.

 

Also, I can never grasp my hands around the fact that other companies are "beating" tokyo marui. If you think about it, clones (and even sole companies) are pacing with marui. Clones will continue to do with they do (mass produce whatever TM will bring out) and recently, KWA is copying the recoil shock model (the TM sopmod was released in 2008) and still taking time to bring it out to this day.

 

Yes, TM made the first aeg back in the 90's and that's the only thing anti-TM advocates would credit them for. One aspect that is often neglected is their R&D going forth. No company has the same amount of R&D as marui has done for the airsoft world (and continues to do). We see a rising tide against marui because there are MULTIPLE COMPANIES (jg, kwa, G&G, vfc, etc) we aggregate together to make the comparison to one company. If you take one company and compare it side by side, you'd be hard pressed to make an affirmative case. The extent of their catalog and offerings surpasses what any company solely can do now. Where else can you find a psg1, uzis, full metal m4s, variety of outstanding pistols, sniper rifles, hi cycles, scars, GBB SMG (new mp7), hk416 (coming out soon!), and shotguns all in one company?

 

To say they are in the dust is far from truth.....

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I think this comes down to what each player wants and both the real TM and the ACM's have important roles in the airsoft community now. My first real airsoft gun was a TM S-System which I still own. I bought the gun about 6-7 years ago. The gun had a low FPS, but looked pretty good with the quad rails and such. Had the gun worked on and systema internals put in. I recently fielded the gun after I serviced the gearbox and it shot really well. When my boy wanted to start playing, I wasn't sure if he was going to be into this so I bought him a D-boys M4. Did some homework on the gun and found it was a decent gun, but it was how the gun was put together was the problem.

 

When the gun came in, I had a local shop tear it apart and reshim/regrease the gun. They also changed out the spring and we took it to the field. The result was that his Dboys gun was a performer with a little more work put into it. Over a year later and the gun is still working great and many players with expensive guns come up and check out his aeg. This gun allowed me to buy an AEG for him that had decent specs that didn't cost an arm and a leg. I recently moved up from that to a custom made G&P Zombie Hunter AEG.

 

Bottom line is both have their places and to each their own. I have moved on myself from TM based guns to G&P's and polarstar HPA guns.

 

But it all had to start somewhere. That's why both TM's and the chinese made AEG's are important to the sport.

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There is just no justification for these prices for what you get.

It's laughable.

I also understand who their niche market is.

So, you understand the niche market they represent, and it's fairly obvious you are not in that market. Perhaps you should just stop applying your own personal preferences to everyone else's. Price is not the only metric by which products can be looked at. And, also it seems like you're taking their basic AEG products and making the generalization across all of their products, including gas guns, which have been mentioned a couple times already to be some of the best on the market. In any case, you seem to be almost dead set against TM as a whole (and seem to be glad about it), so regardless of whether you actually understand who their market is, it would be hard--more like impossible--to get you to truly understand purchasing criteria from the point of view of someone in that market.

 

 

To be honest with you, given the prices TM charge for their AEG guns for what the consumer gets in return, I would just not buy a TM.

 

Hopefully TM's price scale will parallel what they produce in the future, and not what they imagine they should charge for their products.

Another factor you guys are missing is the Exchange Rate. Yen to USD now is 80 to 1. Back in the early 2000's it was 120 Yen to the USD...TM were far cheaper and thus more plentiful back then. Not to mention there were very few Taiwan/HK AEG's and UTG just popped on the market with their first craptacular MP5

You seem to be harpping on the price constantly. TM charges the same price they did over 10 years ago. Apparently, back in about 2002, the exchange rate was up in the 130s in Yen to the dollar. It stayed above 100 until mid 2008. It is now hovering just below 80. http://everything-airsoft.com/blog/2012/01...neup-2000-2001/ shows the prices they were advertising back in 2000-2001. Compare them to the prices on their website now http://www.tokyo-marui.co.jp/products/electric/standard/ . The ones I checked were all the same prices. So don't just blame the company for charging high prices. I recall back around 2007 or 2008 the price of TM AEGs from a reputable domestic retailer at about $200-210 with free shipping. Now, since TM themselves don't distribute outside of Japan (to my knowledge), the retail price fluctuates with however much it costs for a retailer to buy the product (in their own currency with whatever the exchange rate is) and give it a retail mark up. The used market better reflects what the perceived price value is. The domestic retail price is kind of moot, going back to what this thread was originally about, given the very limited domestic retail availability of TMs.

 

But hey, they've been around for this long and are still introducing new products, despite increasing amounts of much cheaper (and according to you, vastly superior) alternatives. I think their price model is working just fine for them.

 

 

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Owning a lot of different brands, I have pretty high respect for TM. Any gun breaks really especially if you push them beyond what they are made for. Take a TM MP5 insert a powerful motor with a M120, what is going to happen when you do very long bursts? Plastic bushings go bye bye and catastrophic failure at some point. The gun wasn't made for that. Not always is a JG gearbox better, seen them cracked as newer versions. But just like pointed out earlier, if you take down a TM and a JG, the TM is a little better. I would rather build off a TM unless it was a money issue then JG is decent enough.

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So, you understand the niche market they represent, and it's fairly obvious you are not in that market. Perhaps you should just stop applying your own personal preferences to everyone else's. Price is not the only metric by which products can be looked at. And, also it seems like you're taking their basic AEG products and making the generalization across all of their products, including gas guns, which have been mentioned a couple times already to be some of the best on the market. In any case, you seem to be almost dead set against TM as a whole (and seem to be glad about it), so regardless of whether you actually understand who their market is, it would be hard--more like impossible--to get you to truly understand purchasing criteria from the point of view of someone in that market.

 

 

 

 

You seem to be harpping on the price constantly. TM charges the same price they did over 10 years ago. Apparently, back in about 2002, the exchange rate was up in the 130s in Yen to the dollar. It stayed above 100 until mid 2008. It is now hovering just below 80. http://everything-airsoft.com/blog/2012/01...neup-2000-2001/ shows the prices they were advertising back in 2000-2001. Compare them to the prices on their website now http://www.tokyo-marui.co.jp/products/electric/standard/ . The ones I checked were all the same prices. So don't just blame the company for charging high prices. I recall back around 2007 or 2008 the price of TM AEGs from a reputable domestic retailer at about $200-210 with free shipping. Now, since TM themselves don't distribute outside of Japan (to my knowledge), the retail price fluctuates with however much it costs for a retailer to buy the product (in their own currency with whatever the exchange rate is) and give it a retail mark up. The used market better reflects what the perceived price value is. The domestic retail price is kind of moot, going back to what this thread was originally about, given the very limited domestic retail availability of TMs.

 

But hey, they've been around for this long and are still introducing new products, despite increasing amounts of much cheaper (and according to you, vastly superior) alternatives. I think their price model is working just fine for them.

 

I would reserve your comments unless you actually did import some TM's back in 2003. Because MSRP does not mean what you can get them for via a HK distributor. Back then, with the exchange rate at roughly 120 yen to the dollar and with no other alternatives on the market other than ICS and CA. TM's were not that expensive for 280.00 for a MP5, shipped.

 

Also other items were not that as expensive or as restricted as today...I wiwh I saved my older order requests for posterity. But, here is one from a supplier that was not my best supplier in pricing:

 

T.M.C.MESSAGE

 

Hide Details

FROM:

TOKYO MODEL COMPANY

TO:

ehbiker@<PLEASE DO NOT POST YAHOO ACCOUNTS IN YOUR MESSAGES>

Message flagged Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:58 AM

Country: USA

 

To: Chris

 

Thank you for your E-mail to Tokyo Model Company. Please follow the total for your order.

 

Order:

2 TM SOCOM M14------$538(USD) 2pcs

6 TM Tracer Units--------Sorry out of stock

6 Bottles of G&G Tracer BB's----------Sorry we don't sell G&G

KSC USP .45 Full Size Taiwan--------$93(USD)

2 Spare Magazines-------$53(USD) 2pcs

Guarder M3 Tactical Illuminator----------Sorry we only have G&P and King Arms. G&P is cheaper is $41(USD)

 

Can you get any of the Poseidon Resin Kits?---------Sorry stop production

Do you have any Marushin 8mm Shot Guns?---------Sorry only the Marushin Shot Gun M1887 8mm BB Guard's Gun is it ok for you?

 

Thank you very much.

 

From: TOKYO MODEL COMPANY.

15-7-2007

 

++++++++++++++

 

Yeah...that's 269.00 each for a TM SOCOM...that just came out...and 983.00 each for KSC USP's with FULL trades...and again...this was from my tertiary supplier...

Edited by Guges Mk3

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Wow! :a-shocked: this topic gives me a headache. At any rate TM is still developing new products and going strong in teh land of the rising sun. There just isn't a demand for their products in other parts of the world. Particularly the USA where FPS and full metal makes newbs jism jasm in their pants. They could never appreciate a TM gun or a 400cc motorcycle. That's why we don't have them in the USA. :a-grin:

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The strong Yen vs the Dollar has made it hard to sell TM stuff. Taiwanese guns on the other hand are great value for money if you are running a shop. We can sell a VFC gun for $400 vs $600 for a TM. When we started selling TM guns they where in the $200-$300 range many years ago.

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