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Tightbore vs. widebore?

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Alright, so I've done a lot of searches and messaging, but have still not gotten a solid conclusion on this, so I dare ask which is better at long range accuracy: tightbores or widebores? I have heard so many things such as tightbores are most commonly used and are able to guide the bb on a much straight path, while widebores allow the bb to flow on a cushion or air and the width of the barrel does not disrupt the bbs hop up implicated spin. The orga is brought up many times as the best, but I have also been told not so much being it is brass(which is very troubling to me) and uses outdated tech flat hop tech.

 

My opinion here? I honestly want to go with tightbores because the tightness of the barrel allows for much faster and precision stability of the bb, and a tight barrel for better precision dates back to muskets during the american revolution. Is it not basic physics that a wider barrel would allow room for the bb to move in the barrel, bounce around and not be put on a precise track? hence why real steel shotgun buckshots are ridiculously inaccurate! But even if real steal physics cannot be applied, if wider barrels really are more accurate, then why arent stock jg 6.07 and 6.08 barrels ridiculously accurate? and why on earth is the orga considered so great when its made of brass! Brass oxidizes without even being touched, so your barrels quality decreases each day. This orga barrel honestly sounds like an overpriced wider stock barrel, and uses flot hop technology? really? Correct me if im mistaken, but doesnt most stock guns come with flat top hops? this does not even conform to the shape of the bb like that of v teeth or PCS nubs(which personally I think are the best)

 

Still even after all these thoughts, I am torn by the facts that tightbore barrels can interfere with the spin of the bb, and the orga has gotten massive amounts of good reviews, so someone please set my mind straight here.

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Alright, so I've done a lot of searches and messaging, but have still not gotten a solid conclusion on this, so I dare ask which is better at long range accuracy: tightbores or widebores? I have heard so many things such as tightbores are most commonly used and are able to guide the bb on a much straight path, while widebores allow the bb to flow on a cushion or air and the width of the barrel does not disrupt the bbs hop up implicated spin. The orga is brought up many times as the best, but I have also been told not so much being it is brass(which is very troubling to me) and uses outdated tech flat hop tech.

 

My opinion here? I honestly want to go with tightbores because the tightness of the barrel allows for much faster and precision stability of the bb, and a tight barrel for better precision dates back to muskets during the american revolution. Is it not basic physics that a wider barrel would allow room for the bb to move in the barrel, bounce around and not be put on a precise track? hence why real steel shotgun buckshots are ridiculously inaccurate! But even if real steal physics cannot be applied, if wider barrels really are more accurate, then why arent stock jg 6.07 and 6.08 barrels ridiculously accurate? and why on earth is the orga considered so great when its made of brass! Brass oxidizes without even being touched, so your barrels quality decreases each day. This orga barrel honestly sounds like an overpriced wider stock barrel, and uses flot hop technology? really? Correct me if im mistaken, but doesnt most stock guns come with flat top hops? this does not even conform to the shape of the bb like that of v teeth or PCS nubs(which personally I think are the best)

 

Still even after all these thoughts, I am torn by the facts that tightbore barrels can interfere with the spin of the bb, and the orga has gotten massive amounts of good reviews, so someone please set my mind straight here.

 

The answers are out there, I am not going to reinvent the wheel explaining everything again. In a nutshell:

 

Brass is a self-lubricating metal, very low friction coefficient of drag and if "hardened" it lasts a very long time and does not oxidize very quickly.

 

There is no such thing as "Widebore". This implies a oval barrel...these do not exist.

 

TM's are stock with 6.08mm and are by far the most accurate "stock" AEG on the market. JG barrels are poorly made. You can't compare a barrel made on material alone...that is a very limited vision on how things work. You want a barrel with no ripples, striations or "irregulariteis". Hold up a barrel to a light and it should look like glass...

 

V Hop, Split Hop, Shark....are all packing based. SCS is a gimmick making one think it replicates a V-Hop, which it doesn't.

 

If the bb is too tight it acts as a plunger and has to push air out the barrel. What air that does slip by causes turbulence...the side to side motion you reference. Maintain a bb gap of .08mm and your good.

 

Welcome to the boards...and now I am old and must take my nap.

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So you believe that we are using "smooth bore musket" physics? We aren't. We are using blow gun physics. On top of that, range and accuracy are OVERWHELMINGLY determined by the back spin on the bb. So with that in mind, if the bb touches the barrel, the barrel will impart a force on the bb, which can change the axis of spin as well as bleed energy from the bb.

 

There is a sweet spot in barrels. It is generally accepted that there should be a 0.08mm gap between the bb and the barrel. This allows air to move around the bb and create the cushion you were talking about, which will help keep the bb from hitting the barrel. At the same time, it is tight enough that the blowby from the gap isn't excess ive and bleed speed.

 

If you are shooting bbs that are 5.95mm, you would want a 6.03mm barrel. If you are shooting bbs that are 5.98mm, then you would want something more like a 6.05mm barrel.

 

The reason JG (or any stock) barrels are not accurate is because the consistency of the bore is horrible. This is another large factor in bb accuracy. Good tight bores vary very little in their actual bore diameter. Stock barrels are not made to that precision, hence why they are inaccurate. You already covered why brass is a poor choice for a barrel, so get a good stainless steel or aluminum/teflon anodized barrel such as Prometheus or Madbull.

 

No stock guns that I am aware of come with flat hop. They still use the little nubbed buckings. V hop and SCS nubs are rather outdated with the introduction of the r-hop. The r-hop has a concave shape and is longer than a normal hop up. The increased contact and concave shape increases range and accuracy. The SCS nub, because it is made of hard plastic, will generally decrease grouping size in the horizontal axis, but increase them in the vertical axis. Because the r-hop uses a soft nub, it does not do this.

 

I didn't realize the Orga has gotten such great reviews, but it isn't brought up on this forum, hardly at all, and I don't hear much ranting and raving from the guys over on ASM, leading me to believe that it isn't as great as you may have read.

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The answers are out there, I am not going to reinvent the wheel explaining everything again. In a nutshell:

 

Brass is a self-lubricating metal, very low friction coefficient of drag and if "hardened" it lasts a very long time and does not oxidize very quickly.

 

There is no such thing as "Widebore". This implies a oval barrel...these do not exist.

 

TM's are stock with 6.08mm and are by far the most accurate "stock" AEG on the market. JG barrels are poorly made. You can't compare a barrel made on material alone...that is a very limited vision on how things work. You want a barrel with no ripples, striations or "irregulariteis". Hold up a barrel to a light and it should look like glass...

 

V Hop, Split Hop, Shark....are all packing based. SCS is a gimmick making one think it replicates a V-Hop, which it doesn't.

 

If the bb is too tight it acts as a plunger and has to push air out the barrel. What air that does slip by causes turbulence...the side to side motion you reference. Maintain a bb gap of .08mm and your good.

 

Welcome to the boards...and now I am old and must take my nap.

 

 

While you say brass does not oxidize quickly, when we are talking about the highest quality here, I think its safe to say we'd want to prioritize that which does not oxidize at all, and for $100.... lets just forget about orga here.

and its classified as a widebore. I did not give it that name myself, its on the retailers desriptions of the barrel, and by your logic tightbores will be ovular as well. As for scs and pcs, they are made to outperform v-hop, not replicate.

 

All in all, I have to be honest, your plunger example is something I have never heard and probably is what would decide a tightbore over widebore for me because thats actually something ive never thought of. However giving the bb more space to move around in the barrel for better accuracy is not something I can wrap my mind around

 

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You need to understand a few things.

 

Airsoft guns have hop up. That back spin on the bb is what gives us the range and accuracy of our guns. The barrel is simply a guide to increase the fps of the bb, aiming it along a direction. The hop up pushes the bb to the top of the barrel. As long as the barrel is curved, the bb will find the top of the barrel, and stay there until it leaves the barrel. The barrel only needs to be long enough for the bb to be centered, and smooth so as to not knock off the hop up. If it's too tight, you run the risk of the bb bumping into the edges as it goes down the barrel. Every time the bb bounces, it loses some of that centered hop that it should have. Giving it off axis rotation. This is causes inaccuracy. You want the barrel to be wide enough to minimize the possibilities of the bb contacting the side of the barrel.

 

The SCS and PCS are good ideas that never worked as well as they could have worked. They were hard nubs causing more vertical variation than normal, while decreasing the horizontal variation. They just turned your circle spread into an oval spread.

 

No Hop > Normal mound hop up > SCS/PCS > V style buckings > G-hop > Flat Hop > R-hop.

^that is the progression of hop ups, more or less. I've discussed the issues with SCS style, but V shapped buckings out perform them. The SCS was supposed to hug a bb so that it is cupped, it didn't work all that well, because there was always a bucking in the way, and it's a hard object. The V-style buckings did a better job, but still had the issue of instantaneous hop applied to the bb. It wasn't until the G-hop was developed that we saw a great increase in performance. It further evolved, with Flat hop branching off, and the R-hop showing up. These give gradual hop to a bb, making a much more consistent hop, increasing range and accuracy. They are less jittery forms of hop, and are more consistent because of it.

 

Does something as large as the Orga actually perform better than a Tbb? Hard to say, probably because the shear amount of air necessary for the Orga is something no normal AEG has, making it a little more difficult to test. Personally, I'm still testing WBB against TBB to figure which performs better in a limited volume system.

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I have heard only good from R-hop. Would it be compatible with the PDI l96 hop up chamber? I know its not a hard plastic and is flexible so would 500+ fps damage it?

Standard length was tested at over 700fps. I think thats enough before you move to the ER-hop no? ;) :P

 

Does something as large as the Orga actually perform better than a Tbb?

Third party testing thus far suggests that the Orga doesn't possess more than minor performance gains over a regular (albeit well implemented) flat hop system. Granted your bucking will likely endure longer in it, as it reduces the bucking strain, but its kinda a 100$ solution to a ~14$ (promy flat hop bucking+packing) problem if lego upgrade is your thing.

 

 

However giving the bb more space to move around in the barrel for better accuracy is not something I can wrap my mind around

Think of it this way then. The bb rolls/slides down the barrel ceiling. FACT. (you can debate it, but only if you've not run the experiments yourself. For the sake of this discussion lets go with the unpublished fact, rather than the masturbatory physics exercise in inapplicable hypotheses.) That bb is launched, and after a few top/bottom bounces from your hop, stabilizes on your barrel ceiling. There it will roll and slide, bouncing around based on your bore's consistency and picking up further spin, and every time it contacts something other than top dead center it picks up off axis spin. This much is known. Now the hypothesis based off this information: given the assumption that no barrel will be perfectly smooth, and no bb will be transferred to the ceiling without incident, which bore scenario will result in fewer detrimental wall contacts?

 

 

I didn't realize the Orga has gotten such great reviews,

The Orga isn't a bad system, or a bad idea for that matter, the problem is now people in the US are selling it as something its not. Where did this crap come from? I point the finger at Amped Airsoft. Among the Polar Star crowd, who apparently are viewed as having too much money, Amped is one of the big names. For whatever reason it seems whatever they throw their weight behind, gains traction. The P* doesn't spit lubricant, gives consistent output even to morons, don't shake the gun the same way an AEG does, and on the whole provides stellar accuracy performance. As a result it demos pretty well with whatever you stick in it. The guys over at Amped, if memory serves, were first hocking the prometheus 6.03 with promy purple and maybe a special nub or something. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) Thats fine, its not a bad combo especially for the drop-in user, but don't sell it like its a revolution because it flat out isn't. (I guess I should be happy they're not trying to hock the REAPS?) Anyway next they picked up the Orga, and are selling that to their users as the most amazing toy on the market. Seriously just read their review:

http://reviews.ampedairsoft.com/orga-mangus-6-23mm-barrels/

and their sale page

http://www.ampedairsoft.com/product_p/orga-magnus-300mm.htm

Humm I could have sworn they were pushing prometheus purple over promy 6.03. Maybe I'm having a brain fart on that one. Someone who knows please double check me.

 

Anyway thats all well and good, but here is the thing: the other night I actually got into a public argument (ask a bunch of the guys over at AM, they were there) with some guy at Amped over whether or not cleaning your barrel is necessary. His position, since I don't want to misquote him, was "I've had this barrel for about six months now and haven't needed to clean it yet." Now anyone who has been playing for a little while knows that you straight up have to clean your barrel. You can get plastic deposits in there so bad your bb will have enough side spin to strike your flash hider on its way out. And I've seen people do it with nice styrene ammo, I'm not even talking about this crap bio ammo which is always clogging everything. This of course neglects to mention that the shipping process makes barrels dirty, its just not a clean process and boxes aren't sealed, swab out your brand new barrel some time and brace yourself because it can be a shock just how much crap is in there. Of course swab a brass barrel and you're not just pulling dirt but also bore oxide out, but this isn't the point. I'm not here to wage a war against Amped, they're no worse than any other retailer, but inevitably as a tech you'll step on all their toes because eventually they'll do something or sell something which you find incorrect or objectionable and you are reduced to choosing whether you'd like people to be informed or whether you'd like to be liked. ;)

 

So does that shed a little light on the situation?

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Ok but I just want to make sure, the pdi is compatible with the r hop right? Compatibility has never been on my side in the past D;

 

And in your statement:

 

"Think of it this way then. The bb rolls/slides down the barrel ceiling. FACT. (you can debate it, but only if you've not run the experiments yourself. For the sake of this discussion lets go with the unpublished fact, rather than the masturbatory physics exercise in inapplicable hypotheses.) That bb is launched, and after a few top/bottom bounces from your hop, stabilizes on your barrel ceiling. There it will roll and slide, bouncing around based on your bore's consistency and picking up further spin, and every time it contacts something other than top dead center it picks up off axis spin. This much is known. Now the hypothesis based off this information: given the assumption that no barrel will be perfectly smooth, and no bb will be transferred to the ceiling without incident, which bore scenario will result in fewer detrimental wall contacts?"

 

I cant tell if youre for or against tightbores or widebores, is giving the bb too much room, I.e a wider bore, to move on the roof of the barrel a bad thing? and all in all for a 500mm barrel what would you recommend the bore width be?

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Ok but I just want to make sure, the pdi is compatible with the r hop right? Compatibility has never been on my side in the past D;

 

I cant tell if youre for or against tightbores or widebores, is giving the bb too much room, I.e a wider bore, to move on the roof of the barrel a bad thing? and all in all for a 500mm barrel what would you recommend the bore width be?

The R-hop is compatible with the PDI barrel. It may help to lengthen the barrel window in the PDI, but in its stock form, you can still use the R-hop with it.

 

As it has been mentioned earlier, there is a sweet spot with bore diameter. Too wide, and air escapes, dropping your fps/making your gun less efficient. Too tight and the chance of undesired contact increases. For a 500mm (or any length) barrel, I would suggest between a 6.03 and 6.05mm bore.

 

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The R-hop is compatible with the PDI barrel. It may help to lengthen the barrel window in the PDI, but in its stock form, you can still use the R-hop with it.

 

As it has been mentioned earlier, there is a sweet spot with bore diameter. Too wide, and air escapes, dropping your fps/making your gun less efficient. Too tight and the chance of undesired contact increases. For a 500mm (or any length) barrel, I would suggest between a 6.03 and 6.05mm bore.

 

The hop up chamber...the r hop is compatible with the PDI L96 hop up chamber right? as for the barrel width, please my sniper is shooting well over 550 I couldnt care less if lost up to about 10% of that. After all the research ive been doing ive been drawn the most towards a prometheus 6.08. Opinions?

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Yes, the R-hop should be competly compatible.

 

Prometheus 6.08? Never heard of it. They make 6.03, or their budget ASH barrels are 6.05mm. Are you sure you aren't thinking of PDI? I believe PDI makes barrels in both 6.05 and 6.08mm. At least that's what a quick search shows.

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Yes, the R-hop should be competly compatible.

 

Prometheus 6.08? Never heard of it. They make 6.03, or their budget ASH barrels are 6.05mm. Are you sure you aren't thinking of PDI? I believe PDI makes barrels in both 6.05 and 6.08mm. At least that's what a quick search shows.

 

yea in doing a search I couldnt find a prometheus 6.08 but ill have to check with pdi. I got prometheus 6.08 from another forum discussion so who knows. Would a PDI 6.08 be alright though? Im not aware of the overall opinion on PDI, or in this case its barrel quality

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Just go with 6.03, most bbs are built around that barrel diameter.

 

Lol actually you can see a trend of decreasing BB size to match ever smaller bore barrels...... like the pinheads over at Celcius with their 6.00mm barrel. Its a good laugh how you'll see someone with their self proclaimed AMAZING barrel running and gunning but complaining about "crap" ammo so ending up shooting ammo which is about a tenth of a mm shy of 6mm.

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yea in doing a search I couldnt find a prometheus 6.08 but ill have to check with pdi. I got prometheus 6.08 from another forum discussion so who knows. Would a PDI 6.08 be alright though? Im not aware of the overall opinion on PDI, or in this case its barrel quality

 

PDI barrel quality (so long as you get their stainless steel, and not the Raven barrel) are excellent. The problem is you pay 2x what you would pay for a Promethues, and you wont notice the difference in accuracy during a game. You might notice a difference when you bench test the rifle, but on the move, you aren't going to notice if you get 3" groupings or 4" inch groupings at 200ft. It just seems like (to me) an excessive expenditure, for a very minor improvement. Quality wise though, they are great.

 

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PDI barrel quality (so long as you get their stainless steel, and not the Raven barrel) are excellent. The problem is you pay 2x what you would pay for a Promethues, and you wont notice the difference in accuracy during a game. You might notice a difference when you bench test the rifle, but on the move, you aren't going to notice if you get 3" groupings or 4" inch groupings at 200ft. It just seems like (to me) an excessive expenditure, for a very minor improvement. Quality wise though, they are great.

 

Good to know. Overall brands aside what bore size would you recommend, disregarding fps loss or gain, for a spring 500+ fps sniper

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really? I mean I was planning on going as wide as the orga, youd really go as tight as 6.03? I mean I was thinking 6.08-07 no?

Gain power, lose accuracy. Gain accuracy lose power. Thats your bore dilemma. Most of us just go with the Prometheus 6.03 because returns beyond that are small. There is always the less expensive, albeit not as good, 6.05 from Prometheus if you really are gunning for it. Just be aware you're going to be fighting some bleed.

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Gain power, lose accuracy. Gain accuracy lose power. Thats your bore dilemma. Most of us just go with the Prometheus 6.03 because returns beyond that are small. There is always the less expensive, albeit not as good, 6.05 from Prometheus if you really are gunning for it. Just be aware you're going to be fighting some bleed.

 

well price and fps are of no concern to me here, accuracy tops out to me as most important, so bearing this in mind irregardless as to if I lose fps or not, would a 6.03 give me overall the best long range accuracy?(inner barrel wise) Thats my main concern here. Ive been told wider bores are betterso im just a little hesitant here

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I think the best barrel is 440mm 6.03mm, the reason why a shorter barrel (363 to 440) is better then a long barrel (anything longer then 509) is because its not a bullet its a bb so this is blow gun physics. so if the bb is in the barrel for long then it will probably touch one of the sides. now for inner barrel size you want .08 bigger then your bb so if your bb is 5.95mm then you want a 6.03 barrel I don't know why, its just the way it is. maybe HS5 will know. btw about 25mm will not matter in barrel length.

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Ok so to basically wrap up this post here I just had one last question. Disregarding fps, what bore barrel should I use for 500mm? Ive been getting 6.03 a lot, but my madbull 6.03 definitely is not precise at even 100 feet. I was thinking a 6.08 pdi, but im not 100% on that. Also should I get a specific bore based on what brand bb I use being the sizes of the bbs can be different? I don't know which brands make which sizes so help me ease my mind here.

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Ok so to basically wrap up this post here I just had one last question. Disregarding fps, what bore barrel should I use for 500mm? Ive been getting 6.03 a lot, but my madbull 6.03 definitely is not precise at even 100 feet. I was thinking a 6.08 pdi, but im not 100% on that. Also should I get a specific bore based on what brand bb I use being the sizes of the bbs can be different? I don't know which brands make which sizes so help me ease my mind here.

 

Are you sure that it's the barrel?

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Ive been getting 6.03 a lot, but my madbull 6.03 definitely is not precise at even 100 feet.

 

:a-skeptical:

 

Doubt it's the barrel mate unless it's a serious lemon.

 

Most BBs are made to be 5.94-5.95 mm hence why after use of a lil physics and math, 6.03mm is considered to be best suited. I hadn't even heard of these wider bores until I came across this thread if I'm honest.

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