Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Matt7N10

Any Good Beginning Support Guns?

Recommended Posts

Alright, I'm joining my friend's airsoft team, but I need a gun. I've played airsoft before, borrowing AEGs from him. He told me that the team needs a designated marksman or support gunner, and I'm opting for the support choice.

 

My first thought was the CM.052. I was thinking this because it is affordable (The highest I've set my personal budget at is $325 with a little wiggle room) It has a bi-pod out of the box and a generous hi-cap magazine.

 

If anyone has some ideas for a beginning support gun, I'd love to hear them!

 

Thanks,

Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went against one of those CYMAs... They are intimidating, but the one this guy had was crap. He couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and it was quiet. And quiet in a support weapon is stupid.

 

A&K makes pretty good SAWs, but I personally built one out of a JG G36 and it's awesome. Well it was, it is in pieces at the moment(upgrades are so fun).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CYMA is great, but I have had bad experience. I borrowed it form him and it was crap. But maybe it was a lemon, because I know that CYMA makes good stuff generally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So I guess I'll be getting the CYMA. This is a gun that I plan on upgrading at some point, but probably won't be doing anything to it right away. Are there any upgrades that I might want to look into in the future? Thanks for the help!

 

And also, I was thinking of ordering it from Evike because my friend said he gets consistent, good service from them. Does anyone else agree or does anyone disagree with this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And also, I was thinking of ordering it from Evike because my friend said he gets consistent, good service from them. Does anyone else agree or does anyone disagree with this?

 

A lot of people will tell you they've gotten crap service from them, but honestly I don't think they're any worse than other retailers. Personally I haven't had issues. Plus the 20% off coupon they always run makes them usually a lot cheaper than anyone else.

 

One thing to be aware of for the support role is the weight of the gun. Although not as bad as an M249, the RPK is going to weigh more than your standard rifle or carbine, and may be quite tiring after running around for a while.

 

Once you feel like opening up the gun, there are some tweaks you can do to help with reliability, such as shimming, greasing, correcting AOE, etc. You can look around on the forum for guides for these. What upgrades to get will depend on what you want from the gun, ie higher FPS, RoF, range, or accuracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like said, Evike hasn't messed up any of my orders yet. Honestly not even AMS has messed up my orders.

 

I did get a bad motor from Evike, but they sent me a new one ASAP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just figured I'd chime in my two cents. I'd pretty much agree with the others. I've heard tons of horror stories about Evike, but I've never had any issues personally. And I've had great experiences with several CYMA guns, and personally would be confident in going with them. Also, idk if your looking specifically for an RPK, or not, but as mentioned earlier, A&K make nice 249 and M60 models for around 300-330 price range. Personally, I usually play support gunner myself, and out of my modest collection, my mk43 (m60e4 variant) is still my favorite gun to date.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys, thanks for all the help, but the leader informed me that he found someone that already has an M60VN is joining and that the Designated Marksman role that needs to be filled before we can have two people with the same role.

 

Now I don't know what to do. Should I wait until someone else comes along to be designated marksman so I can play a support role or should I just volunteer for designated Marksman? I wanted to start playing over spring and summer, and I don't know if there's anyone that'll volunteer for a designated marksman position. :a-confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quit the team!

 

Now is it like an actual airsoft team with all the milsim gear, or just a bunch of friends playing airsoft. Because if its the second they seem kind of pushy with the whole "One person per role." If there not playing for realism then there is no need to only allow one support gunner.

 

If you want a DMR you could do it, it may cost a bit of money in the long run, but so would a LMG or any upgraded airsoft gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quit the team!

 

Now is it like an actual airsoft team with all the milsim gear, or just a bunch of friends playing airsoft. Because if its the second they seem kind of pushy with the whole "One person per role." If there not playing for realism then there is no need to only allow one support gunner.

 

If you want a DMR you could do it, it may cost a bit of money in the long run, but so would a LMG or any upgraded airsoft gun.

 

Agreed, and somebody will say "I GOTZ A DMR" and get a spring $20 Barrett(yes they have them) if it's just friends.

 

 

Oh and Alex, you are wrong, my G36 build didn't cost that much(it's a total of about $800.50). The fifty cents is a sticker I picked up at Field of Screams :a-laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quit the team!

 

Now is it like an actual airsoft team with all the milsim gear, or just a bunch of friends playing airsoft. Because if its the second they seem kind of pushy with the whole "One person per role." If there not playing for realism then there is no need to only allow one support gunner.

 

If you want a DMR you could do it, it may cost a bit of money in the long run, but so would a LMG or any upgraded airsoft gun.

 

It's a bunch of friends trying to start a 'professional looking' (as he calls it) mil-sim/reenactment team. The guy who's running the group has been my friend for quite some time, and I still want to be on his team once I get gear, but this has drastically changed my plans.

 

As for a DMR, I don't know what's best. If I do accept that role, I'd really only be looking for a single, high quality gun that will last a good time (with minimal modification as I'm just getting serious about airsoft and I don't have enough knowledge for working on airsoft guns).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for a DMR, I don't know what's best. If I do accept that role, I'd really only be looking for a single, high quality gun that will last a good time (with minimal modification as I'm just getting serious about airsoft and I don't have enough knowledge for working on airsoft guns).

 

Problem is, that doesn't really exist. There really is no out of the box dmr. They're money pits that you sink tons or cash and time into. When I first got into the game, I was in an almost exact same situation. I wanted to play support, but team leader said that someone else was joining with a m60vn, and the only option I really had left was DM (I had a falling out with another member and wound up inadvertently starting another team). and I found out the hard way, that just buying an m14 doesnt automatically allow you to out-range everyone else(at least not by much). Its alot of time and work and more cash than I would like to admit to get them to the level that you want. I'd suggest that you talk to your friend/team leader, and explain the situation and see what you can work out. From personal experience I find this sport much more enjoyable when you find a role that YOU enjoy playing.

Edited by Twinkie Hammer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Problem is, that doesn't really exist. There really is no out of the box dmr. They're money pits that you sink tons or cash and time into. When I first got into the game, I was in an almost exact same situation. I wanted to play support, but team leader said that someone else was joining with a m60vn, and the only option I really had left was DM (I had a falling out with another member and wound up inadvertently starting another team). and I found out the hard way, that just buying an m14 doesnt automatically allow you to out-range everyone else(at least not by much). Its alot of time and work and more cash than I would like to admit to get them to the level that you want. I'd suggest that you talk to your friend/team leader, and explain the situation and see what you can work out. From personal experience I find this sport much more enjoyable when you find a role that YOU enjoy playing.

 

 

I'd probably enjoy any role, but I was looking at support initially because it's what we needed. The problems you stated are what I'm running into. The closest thing to an out of box DMR (Along the lines of my 'minimal modification, only gun I want to own' guideline) is the Real Sword SVD, and that's A TON of money to drop on an airsoft gun. I have $350 dollars in spending money right now that I wanted to buy an airsoft gun with, and there's always the option to wait and save more. It might take another month, though. I already know I like airsoft, so would it be worth it to buy something so expensive?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quit the team!

 

Now is it like an actual airsoft team with all the milsim gear, or just a bunch of friends playing airsoft. Because if its the second they seem kind of pushy with the whole "One person per role." If there not playing for realism then there is no need to only allow one support gunner.

 

If you want a DMR you could do it, it may cost a bit of money in the long run, but so would a LMG or any upgraded airsoft gun.

Has to be the second. A milsim team that's actually doing good milsim has all team members familiarized, and able to work with, and assigned role. They may be usually used in a particular role (especially if they show better skills in those roles than other team members).

 

In any actual military or paramilitary (police SWAT) team, everyone qualifies on "field carbine" (M4 variants in American military, AUG, or even AK in some others), everyone knows how to use the under-barrel grenade launchers with fair accuracy, though one guy is usually tasked to actually use it, usually. Everyone is familiarized with the machine guns, but only the guys with the best trigger control (3 and 5 round bursts consistently) qualify on them, and your sniper, and his cover or spotter are interchangeable.

 

Depending on your group size, or normal mission, the only people who should be "specialized" are your sniper, and if your team has one for him, his spotter. And, as said, those two should be interchangeable, if you have enough members to supply that..

 

If you have trouble with believing any of this, look at military or SWAT training regimens, which are completely unclassified, and you can see the order of training and familiarization with each weapon. Any Marine, Army infantry, or SWAT school graduate is hitting targets at "max effective range" 90% of the time by the time he's gone through 7-8 weeks of training (out of a total of 13 weeks in military cases), from any prescribed firing position, a couple days spent on under-barrel grenade launchers for familiarization (all you really have to know is how to use their sights), sniper school (which accepts applicants who regularly score 38/40 or better on field carbine before being accepted) is only 5 weeks, most of which is on camo and movement training, plus fine-tuning the methods used to extend effective aiming range--both snipers and spotters go through the same school), and Marines or Army infantry are working with both light and heavy machine guns (SAW-M249- or M-60 variants) during the last two weeks of basic training/AIT, with the ones with best control going on to be qualified when they get to their PDY unit.

 

A proper milsim team goes as far as it can into mirroring this. Any team that doesn't is generally both at a disadvantage and less than professional in quality and skill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whiteout is right. Proper milsim takes a LOT of practice. As for a Designated Marksman, get an AEG and see how many times you can hit a man sized target out of ten shots at 200 feet. THEN see if you want a DMR.

 

And trust me, if you do real practice you can hit it. My father and grandfather both have been known to hit a target at 300 yards with a .30-30 Marlin(with no scope of course). I can hit a mannequin with a BASR at 150 feet standing easy. You know why? I practiced every day and went through a LOT of BBs :a-laugh:

 

It also helps if you have proper trigger control, aiming etc...

 

ANYWAYS, for a DMR you need to build it yourself or get a really nice rifle. It costs a lot of money and a lot of work. But if you do it right, you'll be happy with the end result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I went against one of those CYMAs... They are intimidating, but the one this guy had was crap. He couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and it was quiet. And quiet in a support weapon is stupid.

 

A&K makes pretty good SAWs, but I personally built one out of a JG G36 and it's awesome. Well it was, it is in pieces at the moment(upgrades are so fun).

 

I've never owned an accurate LMG/SAW. Why you need it to be accurate is beyond me, you're just laying down fire. Doing 60 round burst at a time, often times more...

 

I've owned a Classic Army M249, TOP M60DX, TOP M60E4 (limited edition done by redwolf with a F'ed up V2 gearbox that was cut and hacked together, worked good), and a Inokatsu M60E3... None of them were accurate, and honestly they didn't need to be for what I was doing. If I could keep my BBs in a 10 foot spread at 160 feet, I was happy. lol. Put a 9.6 volt battery in there and let it roar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've never owned an accurate LMG/SAW. Why you need it to be accurate is beyond me, you're just laying down fire. Doing 60 round burst at a time, often times more...

 

I've owned a Classic Army M249, TOP M60DX, TOP M60E4 (limited edition done by redwolf with a F'ed up V2 gearbox that was cut and hacked together, worked good), and a Inokatsu M60E3... None of them were accurate, and honestly they didn't need to be for what I was doing. If I could keep my BBs in a 10 foot spread at 160 feet, I was happy. lol. Put a 9.6 volt battery in there and let it roar.

 

Eh, I'm a perfectionist. I like to keep heads down by hosing their buddies :a-laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Whiteout is right. Proper milsim takes a LOT of practice. As for a Designated Marksman, get an AEG and see how many times you can hit a man sized target out of ten shots at 200 feet. THEN see if you want a DMR.

 

And trust me, if you do real practice you can hit it. My father and grandfather both have been known to hit a target at 300 yards with a .30-30 Marlin(with no scope of course). I can hit a mannequin with a BASR at 150 feet standing easy. You know why? I practiced every day and went through a LOT of BBs :a-laugh:

 

It also helps if you have proper trigger control, aiming etc...

 

ANYWAYS, for a DMR you need to build it yourself or get a really nice rifle. It costs a lot of money and a lot of work. But if you do it right, you'll be happy with the end result.

 

I have an old spring rifle with good iron sighs, but I've never tried for 200 feet. It is a reasonably good, accurate (but tough to pull the charging handle every time), spring rifle. Would that be good for practice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have an old spring rifle with good iron sighs, but I've never tried for 200 feet. It is a reasonably good, accurate (but tough to pull the charging handle every time), spring rifle. Would that be good for practice?

 

Depends on what it is, but yeah, most likely it will work. If it reaches 200 feet...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Whiteout is right. Proper milsim takes a LOT of practice. As for a Designated Marksman, get an AEG and see how many times you can hit a man sized target out of ten shots at 200 feet. THEN see if you want a DMR.

 

And trust me, if you do real practice you can hit it. My father and grandfather both have been known to hit a target at 300 yards with a .30-30 Marlin(with no scope of course). I can hit a mannequin with a BASR at 150 feet standing easy. You know why? I practiced every day and went through a LOT of BBs :a-laugh:

 

It also helps if you have proper trigger control, aiming etc...

 

ANYWAYS, for a DMR you need to build it yourself or get a really nice rifle. It costs a lot of money and a lot of work. But if you do it right, you'll be happy with the end result.

300 yards open sight is a standard qualifying long range target on a half silhouette for police/military on a short barrel (carbine) like the M4. A long rifle like the Remington 700 (light sniper, but also the most popular deer caliber in the nation, 7.62 NATO is a .308) is an easy 500 yard shot for a trained shooter (not sniper trained, just trained), open sight, half silhouette.

 

 

There are various factors in AEG and spring rifles that make for a good shooter with "minimal" practice (an hour or two, five days a week, for three or four weeks, practcing the right way to do it, not training the wrong ways in, and having to break those habits later).

 

Zeroing for the equipment you wear (zeroing for a mask setup is a very exacting process, and requires, for one thing, fitting your mask so it sits in exactly the same way every time you put it on) is a big one, but METHOD of zeroing and consistency of equipment are the most important. A silicone O ring on your head, a tight barrel, and high tolerance ammo (the stuff carefully polished, weighted, and micrometered) is a bit more expensive, but it is an imperative for consistent shooting.

 

The actual methods for accurate shooting and zeroing are universal for any weapon with a stock, and I can walk anyone who cares through them (have done so on a couple other threads, and a couple of the guys who have tried them will vouch for the effective results).

 

Brett, if you're spraying 60 round bursts, you're burning ammo for no good reason. There are two types of military fire... suppression and targeted. Suppression is what you're trying to do, if you're ripping off big strings...and you're wasting time and ammo doing it...short bursts still keep their heads down, and still allow you to hit them better. It's called "walking your rounds". You don't have to aim, so much, but you pay attention to where your short bursts are hitting, and adjust on the fly until you're right on top of your target.

You're right that the sights on a MG don't matter much, except to give you a fairly accurate general area to aim at. From there, it is all about watching where your bursts hit.

Even a good airsoft MG has recoil and slide, which means ripping off huge bursts takes you out of the ability to hit anything. I guarantee you that if you were using that method at me from 130 feet, even though that's the far limit rated on the JG I currently have, I could pick you off on semi and short bursts well before you actually laid a shot on me, unless it was a fluke first burst hit.

If you want to believe that's bragging, that's fine...but ask the guys I've dropped snippets of advice on, they'll tell you I'm on it.

 

Matt...all that matters for practice is wearing the headgear you will wear in the field (for accurate zeroing), and consistency in ammunition and air pressure in the barrel. Good silicone or rubber rings on the piston head, good lube, clean the gun regularly, and buy top quality ammunition. It's the same with any gun...live lead-slingers, paintballs, or airsoft.

You won't, of course, ever get the gun to be as accurate as it can be, if you don't learn the shooter's end of things...breath control, trigger squeeze, consistent positioning of the stock on your shoulder and against your cheek or mask. But those have zero to do with the gun. They're in YOUR hands.

If you have the mechanical aspects listed covered, then you could have a cheapo junk rifle, and be slaughtering people with it. The gun would just break sooner, and more often, and need to be zeroed all over again after each repair (or even take-down and reassembly).

 

Coyote, I think I like your style...that's the way to approach it. You're more likely to waste an enemy laying down suppression the right way than you are to keep heads down laying it the wrong way.

 

 

 

By the way...I qualified "expert marksman" consistently, but wasn't the BEST rifleman in my squad, by a log shot, so I spent my time as a light machine gunner for my first two years (1/75th Infantry), and was a standard rifleman (M-16) for the last two years (Bco 3/75 INF)...some guys are purely magic with a short barrel and open sights...I'm passable, but not one of the wizards.

Edited by Whiteout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brett, if you're spraying 60 round bursts, you're burning ammo for no good reason. There are two types of military fire... suppression and targeted. Suppression is what you're trying to do, if you're ripping off big strings...and you're wasting time and ammo doing it...short bursts still keep their heads down, and still allow you to hit them better. It's called "walking your rounds". You don't have to aim, so much, but you pay attention to where your short bursts are hitting, and adjust on the fly until you're right on top of your target.

You're right that the sights on a MG don't matter much, except to give you a fairly accurate general area to aim at. From there, it is all about watching where your bursts hit.

Even a good airsoft MG has recoil and slide, which means ripping off huge bursts takes you out of the ability to hit anything. I guarantee you that if you were using that method at me from 130 feet, even though that's the far limit rated on the JG I currently have, I could pick you off on semi and short bursts well before you actually laid a shot on me, unless it was a fluke first burst hit.

If you want to believe that's bragging, that's fine...but ask the guys I've dropped snippets of advice on, they'll tell you I'm on it.

 

With your logic, there is no point to have a LMG/SAW for airsoft in the first place. Say you're doing a 10 round burst for suppression, you can do that with a TM AK47 an a hi-cap mag. lol

 

You're getting real world and airsoft mixed up. You need to come at the issue physiologically. In the real world, I can pump out a 10-15 round burst, and it really will keep heads down. Because most people are worried about you know... Getting killed. In airsoft, there are no repercussions for being a badass and returning fire. You won't be picking anyone off if I have you covered with a 10 foot spread of bbs and I'm constantly refilling my box, as I'm shooting! lol. The wall effect of LMGs/SAWs in airsoft is quite effective, and well hated by opponents.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
300 yards open sight is a standard qualifying long range target on a half silhouette for police/military on a short barrel (carbine) like the M4. A long rifle like the Remington 700 (light sniper, but also the most popular deer caliber in the nation, 7.62 NATO is a .308) is an easy 500 yard shot for a trained shooter (not sniper trained, just trained), open sight, half silhouette.

 

 

There are various factors in AEG and spring rifles that make for a good shooter with "minimal" practice (an hour or two, five days a week, for three or four weeks, practcing the right way to do it, not training the wrong ways in, and having to break those habits later).

 

Zeroing for the equipment you wear (zeroing for a mask setup is a very exacting process, and requires, for one thing, fitting your mask so it sits in exactly the same way every time you put it on) is a big one, but METHOD of zeroing and consistency of equipment are the most important. A silicone O ring on your head, a tight barrel, and high tolerance ammo (the stuff carefully polished, weighted, and micrometered) is a bit more expensive, but it is an imperative for consistent shooting.

 

The actual methods for accurate shooting and zeroing are universal for any weapon with a stock, and I can walk anyone who cares through them (have done so on a couple other threads, and a couple of the guys who have tried them will vouch for the effective results).

 

Brett, if you're spraying 60 round bursts, you're burning ammo for no good reason. There are two types of military fire... suppression and targeted. Suppression is what you're trying to do, if you're ripping off big strings...and you're wasting time and ammo doing it...short bursts still keep their heads down, and still allow you to hit them better. It's called "walking your rounds". You don't have to aim, so much, but you pay attention to where your short bursts are hitting, and adjust on the fly until you're right on top of your target.

You're right that the sights on a MG don't matter much, except to give you a fairly accurate general area to aim at. From there, it is all about watching where your bursts hit.

Even a good airsoft MG has recoil and slide, which means ripping off huge bursts takes you out of the ability to hit anything. I guarantee you that if you were using that method at me from 130 feet, even though that's the far limit rated on the JG I currently have, I could pick you off on semi and short bursts well before you actually laid a shot on me, unless it was a fluke first burst hit.

If you want to believe that's bragging, that's fine...but ask the guys I've dropped snippets of advice on, they'll tell you I'm on it.

 

Matt...all that matters for practice is wearing the headgear you will wear in the field (for accurate zeroing), and consistency in ammunition and air pressure in the barrel. Good silicone or rubber rings on the piston head, good lube, clean the gun regularly, and buy top quality ammunition. It's the same with any gun...live lead-slingers, paintballs, or airsoft.

You won't, of course, ever get the gun to be as accurate as it can be, if you don't learn the shooter's end of things...breath control, trigger squeeze, consistent positioning of the stock on your shoulder and against your cheek or mask. But those have zero to do with the gun. They're in YOUR hands.

If you have the mechanical aspects listed covered, then you could have a cheapo junk rifle, and be slaughtering people with it. The gun would just break sooner, and more often, and need to be zeroed all over again after each repair (or even take-down and reassembly).

 

Coyote, I think I like your style...that's the way to approach it. You're more likely to waste an enemy laying down suppression the right way than you are to keep heads down laying it the wrong way.

 

 

 

By the way...I qualified "expert marksman" consistently, but wasn't the BEST rifleman in my squad, by a log shot, so I spent my time as a light machine gunner for my first two years (1/75th Infantry), and was a standard rifleman (M-16) for the last two years (Bco 3/75 INF)...some guys are purely magic with a short barrel and open sights...I'm passable, but not one of the wizards.

 

That's a ton of information! And I thank you for it! It seems like becoming a DM is quite an investment into the sport, and I'm willing to invest, as I have a lot of downtime when not working my every day schedule. I've shot real firearms before (Mostly handguns, but I absolutely love the Russian American CM-2 for bench-rest shooting) and it seems as though most of the complexities of real life marksmanship carry on into the sport of airsoft, and that's what I'm looking for. A challenge, and that's why I'm trying to join my friend's team. When you talked about cheap rifles having the potential to be amazingly accurate in the right hands, but breaking sooner and needing re-zeroing every so often, I understood what you meant, but is it worth waiting another month (Still tons of snow here) and saving up for a high quality rifle?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With your logic, there is no point to have a LMG/SAW for airsoft in the first place. Say you're doing a 10 round burst for suppression, you can do that with a TM AK47 an a hi-cap mag. lol

 

You're getting real world and airsoft mixed up. You need to come at the issue physiologically. In the real world, I can pump out a 10-15 round burst, and it really will keep heads down. Because most people are worried about you know... Getting killed. In airsoft, there are no repercussions for being a bad-:censored2: and returning fire. You won't be picking anyone off if I have you covered with a 10 foot spread of bbs and I'm constantly refilling my box, as I'm shooting! lol. The wall effect of LMGs/SAWs in airsoft is quite effective, and well hated by opponents.

Not at all true. The reason for a LMG, MG, or HMG is volume of fire, and speed at which you can rip those bursts off. With a LMG you can pop those 3-5 round bursts with full control better than every second to second and a half from a suppressing position, where someone carrying a rifleman's gun is both more likely to be relatively limited on ammunition, AND needed to be highly mobile. Your job is to ALLOW them that mobility, and keep the enemy's head down, without hitting them...if you're ripping huge bursts, you're not walking to target or switching targets as quickly as you can...so either you'll traverse, and hit your own teammate, or fail to suppress the right enemy at the right time, because you're focused on where those huge long bursts are going, instead of "big picturing" the field.

 

As for the "10 foot spread" claim...doesn't do you a BIT of good if someone who knows how to handle a support weapon like an M4 knows how to aim, and quickly, and locates your general position by sound while you're pounding away in that spray...he can pop up over his cover, or around a corner, snap two or three shots at you, and be down, with a better than even chance of not being hit by your spray before he ducks back, or you're hit. I'm not 10 foot wide, and wouldn't expose myself any more than I had to...probably a target of under 3 feet square...while you're throwing a 10 foot diameter cone at me (31 square feet and change). If you've been throwing bursts, not only will you see where every enemy is that tries to move, thinking your attention is elsewhere, but you'll know where to line up on me to hit that 3sq feet, rather than hoping that 10:1 odds work in your favor through volume of fire.

 

 

 

Matt...buying quality is ALWAYS worthwhile...but "quality" doesn't always mean "top dollar". Look up reviews written by techs, professional players, organizations that use them in scenario training (for sniping guns, SWAT teams and FBI use them for small caliber sniper training in "live exercise" scenario training, don't know if any other organizations do). Anyone in their right mind will tell you the $2000 Systema is "the perfect trainer", but there is absolutely nothing wrong with second or third best--or even fifth, if it has the qualities you want, and is as good, or almost as good, in the opinion of the "professionals" using them (tech reviews are best for telling you about reliability and ease of upgrade, not accuracy and effectiveness. But they tend to come hand in hand, don't they?)

 

Always make certain, though, if you're going to play big field (only place a sniper makes sense, anyway) that not only do you start with a good weapon, and tune it more and more (starting with creating a better seal in cylinder and piston head), but when you upgrade, STAY that demanding on quality. If you're going to try your hand at sniping, you have to be picky as hell with everything about it. You have to baby it, and "give it love". Anything less, and you've got a substandard weapon, and too little investment (not money investment, care type investment) to make you welded to it.

 

This all applies to "support" rifles, as well, but requires a bit less dedication and attention to "perfection" in tuning.

 

Don't jump on the bandwagon with me, just because of what I'm saying here, but I just dumped my JG off on my boys, to buy the G&P "new style" M4/CAR 15, all metal except stock and hand guards. Might not be to your taste, but the reviews I found said the KWA and ICS closest to the same model were about equal in quality, with the KWA having a minor issue with front handguard solidity...and all were under $300, stock. The KWA had the advantage of the GX2 gearbox, which has a better quality reputation, so far as I was able to find in reviews, but that rattle concerned me as "stable platform" considerations count more than what one all steel gearbox and gears, re-enforced, compared to another, of equal reported quality (stock), to me.

Specifically search all the store pages, find what looks like it might interest you, then look up reviews and comparisons done by the folks making a living or doing hardcore real-life training with them, for comparisons. When you see overwhelming reviews in favor of one that interests you, in your price range, compared to the others in the same range, with the same qualities, you've found your gun :)

 

 

I know this all sounds too "hooahh hooahh" as brett seems to think, but anything you can do to take it to the levels of proper milsim will improve your performance...that's why they call it milsim (military simulation)

 

The CM is a good weapon! Not prime, but very good. I'm currently in love with my newest Winchester .300mag, because I got one of the limited edition "varmint barrel" models (the thicker barrel body, same bore, and a tighter rifling), and put the composite stock on it, but even it isn't my "dream" weapon (and it's MUCH too much for deer and antelope, though I am praying to get a sheep draw (mountain goat) in the next couple years, and it's perfect for bear...or cougar if I see one in season). If I get my way about it, someday I'm going to talk my wife into a Robar .50, and a Mannlicher 7.62/.308...at several grand a piece, plus good optics for them (which means another couple grand), though I might go for the Manny Pro African in .450 as a compromise, and spend the "saved money" on a trip to Africa or New Zealand (I would dearly love to go after a cape buff...the only vegetarian in the world that seems to take great joy in backtracking, and hunting its hunters, so it can pound them into greasy spots in the dirt). It's too much gun for anything other than ridgeline hunting or BIG game, and the wrong caliber to even play at competition shooting at long ranges, but :drool:

 

If you like handguns...ever shot the CZ75 or ALFA out of Czechoslovakia? Communist paranoia and Western ideas on quality control sure make for a superior weapon ;) My wife carries a 75 as her concealed piece, has NEVER had a jam on it, in several thousand range rounds, never any untoward rattle, and it's gone a couple hundred rounds before getting properly cleaned, once, and still shot like a showroom piece. If I weren't a dedicated Colt pistol man, I'd be carrying one.

Edited by Whiteout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not at all true. The reason for a LMG, MG, or HMG is volume of fire, and speed at which you can rip those bursts off. With a LMG you can pop those 3-5 round bursts with full control better than every second to second and a half from a suppressing position, where someone carrying a rifleman's gun is both more likely to be relatively limited on ammunition, AND needed to be highly mobile. Your job is to ALLOW them that mobility, and keep the enemy's head down, without hitting them...if you're ripping huge bursts, you're not walking to target or switching targets as quickly as you can...so either you'll traverse, and hit your own teammate, or fail to suppress the right enemy at the right time, because you're focused on where those huge long bursts are going, instead of "big picturing" the field.

 

As for the "10 foot spread" claim...doesn't do you a BIT of good if someone who knows how to handle a support weapon like an M4 knows how to aim, and quickly, and locates your general position by sound while you're pounding away in that spray...he can pop up over his cover, or around a corner, snap two or three shots at you, and be down, with a better than even chance of not being hit by your spray before he ducks back, or you're hit. I'm not 10 foot wide, and wouldn't expose myself any more than I had to...probably a target of under 3 feet square...while you're throwing a 10 foot diameter cone at me (31 square feet and change). If you've been throwing bursts, not only will you see where every enemy is that tries to move, thinking your attention is elsewhere, but you'll know where to line up on me to hit that 3sq feet, rather than hoping that 10:1 odds work in your favor through volume of fire.

 

Not sure on the tactics you use with your LMG then. Thanks for your input though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not sure on the tactics you use with your LMG then. Thanks for your input though

Pretty simple technique, actually. Same one I was taught while in. Walk bursts until I knew where I was hitting, and switch target for target anywhere I had seen anything moving that might need suppressing, watching the whole area I could see. Job was to keep the other guys' heads down while ours moved, and if I didn't do it that way, someone on my side would catch one in the back from me, or the guy in the perfect position to pop up and throw lead at him would get to feeling brave while I spent all my time on one target that only endangered the guys in his direct line.

 

It's fine to rip a 2 or 3 second burst if you're going after someone you saw moving, until you see he's back under cover, but otherwise your whole job is to try to know where every enemy is that's in your line of sight, and keep them from getting a shot on your teammates while they are in motion.

 

Sniper's job is to pick off anyone who stands too long, or lurks too long waiting for the shot on a mobile man, MG's is to make sure everybody keeps their heads down, and pretty much stays in the same place, mobile guys are there to move around to the side and deliver crossfire, or to get into the target and "kick doors and break things". Simple enough.

 

And it's a LOT scarier for your targets if it seems more like you have complete control and confidence than if you just spray like a fire hose. Think about it...if you were on the receiving end, would you be more likely to chance a peek-around shot, whether out of frustration, or increased confidence, when a machine gunner is simply spraying all around in your general direction, or if he's throwing a few rounds that hit your cover, then doing the same to one of your teammate's position's cover, and then the next one, with no established pattern?

 

That MG is showing not only can he hit your cover in controlled bursts, but he has the confidence in his ability to throw bursts at multiple positions, is watching all of those positions, AND you don't know when the next burst is coming for your cover positions...and are pretty sure, since he's watching, that if he sees movement in your direction, you're going to get ventilated by a longer burst.

 

 

This general principal is why our troops are doing better in the sandbox than the muj...every one of them has no technique, they just spray and pray. Usually from the hip, while screaming, with their eyes shut. They only win a battle when they have overwhelming numbers and a GREAT ambush position, or when they use an IED, which isn't an actual engagement. Our folks are trained in controlled fire, aimed fire, and controlled bursts. And always have a higher kill ratio than the goat-copulators, even in those "can't win" situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are overthinking it. Buy an Cyma M14. Buy a good inner barrel (prometheus?) and put an R-hop on it. Shim, grease and correct the angle of engagement. If your field allows it put an m130/m140 in it. Use at least 0.3gr BBs and a good 11.1 lipo. I think you will not even reach your 325 USD limit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow so much to read. Mind you I'm posting before reading the whole thing.

 

The CM052 would be a great gun. If I were you this is what I would do.

 

Buy the gun and an extra HiCap and (if you feel comfortable.) get some grease, lube and what not and do the standard Regrease, shim, AOE.

 

Save up some money and do an Rhop and get a Madbull 6.03 Black. (More range and accuracy make a scarier LMG/LSW. Sure you don't NEED it, but it helps scare the enemies when you have a small group of BB's flying their way compared to a large spread.)

 

Next save up ~$100 and get a STAR/ARES/Shooter AK Drum Mag. http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/Ares-AK-47-2...ine-p/79502.htm

 

Why the Star mag over any others? Because they are MUCH MUCH MUCH higher quality than any other Drum Mag. Ontop of that, they are pressure winding (When you shoot it winds it up until it feels the "pressure" and then stops winding) Which means no stupid cords, cables. plus they are fast to reload and you have 2,500 rounds :D

 

After that I don't think you would really need anything for your AK. It would be pretty rock solid at that point.

 

Just my 2 cents

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would just pick up an m4, you can't go wrong with that. There is no such thing as to many m4 users on a team, but there is suppose to be only one support gunner. In reality support gunners are only for realism or fun (based on your teams criteria I'd assume its for whole "OMG we're so legitz milsim because we have a support gunner"). A high cap mag on any descent AEG would do the same thing, but support gunners make the team look more "official".

 

If you get an m4 you can basically convert it to anything you want. If you want to be a DMR you could get a longer barrel, new stock, and a scope (With plenty of internal upgrades of course, *cough* R-hop *cough*)

 

And if you want to be a support gunner, run high cap mags! It won't look as "realistic" though. Just NEVER put a drum mag on it, NEVER. Do you know how many airsoft Newbies put drum mags on their m4s and act like it makes them 100 times more cool...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alex, drum mags make everything better. Except Newbies. They are a disgrace to drum mag kind. But an M4 is good. But a G36 is shmexier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS Whiteout, if you didn't like my example...

 

My father has hit targets farther than I can see with a little 30-30

 

My grandfather hit a buffalo 800 yards out with a black powder rifle.

 

I am only 14 and I hit a "target" at 100 yards. Then again I had a good teacher :a-laugh:

 

But let's not get carried away, we should just help people.

Edited by verisimilitude
content against forum rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would just pick up an m4, you can't go wrong with that. There is no such thing as to many m4 users on a team, but there is suppose to be only one support gunner. In reality support gunners are only for realism or fun (based on your teams criteria I'd assume its for whole "OMG we're so legitz milsim because we have a support gunner"). A high cap mag on any descent AEG would do the same thing, but support gunners make the team look more "official".

 

If you get an m4 you can basically convert it to anything you want. If you want to be a DMR you could get a longer barrel, new stock, and a scope (With plenty of internal upgrades of course, *cough* R-hop *cough*)

 

And if you want to be a support gunner, run high cap mags! It won't look as "realistic" though. Just NEVER put a drum mag on it, NEVER. Do you know how many airsoft Newbies put drum mags on their m4s and act like it makes them 100 times more cool...

 

M4 for support :\

 

No just no. He is looking for a SUPPORT weapon not a AR-15 with hi-caps. (Flame suit on as I will be bashing the AR-15.)

 

V2 gearboxes are more prone to cracking, and when playing milsim you can't use Hicap mags, unless you have a designated Support gun. The AR-15 is just not a good support weapon and never will be. Also all the upgrades you can do to a V2 you can do to a V3. Basically. The Rhop is the most important upgrade (IMO) and you can do them in AK's... The AK will be an all around better support weapon than an AR-15 any day.

 

Also only Newbies run drum mags and they think it makes them look cooler? That has to be the most absurd statement I have ever heard. Sure putting a Drum mag on a G36c, or an M4 is pretty "noobish" as those guns were meant for CQB but it has been done IN THE REAL WORLD. (Clicky Clicky) And then saying that they think they are cooler because they put it on? Thats just ridiculously ignorant to say.

 

Also with the AK, you can make it into a DMR as well. You can make any gun in Airsoft into any role you want. The AR-15 is NOT the best all around platform in fact I would say its the worst. The V2 shell is prone to cracking when putting in hotter springs which instantly makes it worse than the V3 gearboxes... The only thing that is good about the AR-15's is that everyone runs them. Parts/Mags are easily accessible and thats about it. Everything else about the AR-15 is junk compared to other platforms in airsoft.

 

I won't go on as I know I'm already starting a flame war as is... But please stop saying the AR-15 is a good platform IF YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY A TRUE SUPPORT ROLE!

 

Also Coyote link me some pics of your G36 :D I really want to see it.

Edited by Bladez 0f Fury

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bladez as soon as I put it together I will, I'm completely replacing the stock internals so it is in a billion pieces :a-laugh: But I must say, the end result will be niiiiice, I'm going to put a Noveske on it for scares.

 

As with the DMR, I would use a G3, SL-8 or an M16. SR-25s are glorified and M4s are carbines, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not at all true. The reason for a LMG, MG, or HMG is volume of fire, and speed at which you can rip those bursts off. With a LMG you can pop those 3-5 round bursts with full control better than every second to second and a half from a suppressing position, where someone carrying a rifleman's gun is both more likely to be relatively limited on ammunition, AND needed to be highly mobile. Your job is to ALLOW them that mobility, and keep the enemy's head down, without hitting them...if you're ripping huge bursts, you're not walking to target or switching targets as quickly as you can...so either you'll traverse, and hit your own teammate, or fail to suppress the right enemy at the right time, because you're focused on where those huge long bursts are going, instead of "big picturing" the field.

 

As for the "10 foot spread" claim...doesn't do you a BIT of good if someone who knows how to handle a support weapon like an M4 knows how to aim, and quickly, and locates your general position by sound while you're pounding away in that spray...he can pop up over his cover, or around a corner, snap two or three shots at you, and be down, with a better than even chance of not being hit by your spray before he ducks back, or you're hit. I'm not 10 foot wide, and wouldn't expose myself any more than I had to...probably a target of under 3 feet square...while you're throwing a 10 foot diameter cone at me (31 square feet and change). If you've been throwing bursts, not only will you see where every enemy is that tries to move, thinking your attention is elsewhere, but you'll know where to line up on me to hit that 3sq feet, rather than hoping that 10:1 odds work in your favor through volume of fire.

 

 

 

Matt...buying quality is ALWAYS worthwhile...but "quality" doesn't always mean "top dollar". Look up reviews written by techs, professional players, organizations that use them in scenario training (for sniping guns, SWAT teams and FBI use them for small caliber sniper training in "live exercise" scenario training, don't know if any other organizations do). Anyone in their right mind will tell you the $2000 Systema is "the perfect trainer", but there is absolutely nothing wrong with second or third best--or even fifth, if it has the qualities you want, and is as good, or almost as good, in the opinion of the "professionals" using them (tech reviews are best for telling you about reliability and ease of upgrade, not accuracy and effectiveness. But they tend to come hand in hand, don't they?)

 

Always make certain, though, if you're going to play big field (only place a sniper makes sense, anyway) that not only do you start with a good weapon, and tune it more and more (starting with creating a better seal in cylinder and piston head), but when you upgrade, STAY that demanding on quality. If you're going to try your hand at sniping, you have to be picky as hell with everything about it. You have to baby it, and "give it love". Anything less, and you've got a substandard weapon, and too little investment (not money investment, care type investment) to make you welded to it.

 

This all applies to "support" rifles, as well, but requires a bit less dedication and attention to "perfection" in tuning.

 

Don't jump on the bandwagon with me, just because of what I'm saying here, but I just dumped my JG off on my boys, to buy the G&P "new style" M4/CAR 15, all metal except stock and hand guards. Might not be to your taste, but the reviews I found said the KWA and ICS closest to the same model were about equal in quality, with the KWA having a minor issue with front handguard solidity...and all were under $300, stock. The KWA had the advantage of the GX2 gearbox, which has a better quality reputation, so far as I was able to find in reviews, but that rattle concerned me as "stable platform" considerations count more than what one all steel gearbox and gears, re-enforced, compared to another, of equal reported quality (stock), to me.

Specifically search all the store pages, find what looks like it might interest you, then look up reviews and comparisons done by the folks making a living or doing hardcore real-life training with them, for comparisons. When you see overwhelming reviews in favor of one that interests you, in your price range, compared to the others in the same range, with the same qualities, you've found your gun :)

 

 

I know this all sounds too "hooahh hooahh" as brett seems to think, but anything you can do to take it to the levels of proper milsim will improve your performance...that's why they call it milsim (military simulation)

 

The CM is a good weapon! Not prime, but very good. I'm currently in love with my newest Winchester .300mag, because I got one of the limited edition "varmint barrel" models (the thicker barrel body, same bore, and a tighter rifling), and put the composite stock on it, but even it isn't my "dream" weapon (and it's MUCH too much for deer and antelope, though I am praying to get a sheep draw (mountain goat) in the next couple years, and it's perfect for bear...or cougar if I see one in season). If I get my way about it, someday I'm going to talk my wife into a Robar .50, and a Mannlicher 7.62/.308...at several grand a piece, plus good optics for them (which means another couple grand), though I might go for the Manny Pro African in .450 as a compromise, and spend the "saved money" on a trip to Africa or New Zealand (I would dearly love to go after a cape buff...the only vegetarian in the world that seems to take great joy in backtracking, and hunting its hunters, so it can pound them into greasy spots in the dirt). It's too much gun for anything other than ridgeline hunting or BIG game, and the wrong caliber to even play at competition shooting at long ranges, but :drool:

 

If you like handguns...ever shot the CZ75 or ALFA out of Czechoslovakia? Communist paranoia and Western ideas on quality control sure make for a superior weapon ;) My wife carries a 75 as her concealed piece, has NEVER had a jam on it, in several thousand range rounds, never any untoward rattle, and it's gone a couple hundred rounds before getting properly cleaned, once, and still shot like a showroom piece. If I weren't a dedicated Colt pistol man, I'd be carrying one.

 

Wow. This is a great help. I think I'm just going to save up for a nice rifle. All the reviews on the Real Sword SVD I've heard were positive. It might take an extra month (plus or minus a week) to save up for it, but it's not like I'm going to be playing for a couple months anyway, there's snow on the ground and there's only more to come (And no indoor locations nearby! All we have in my area are field locations.)

 

As for handguns, the only piece from 'behind the Iron Curtain' I've got my hands on is the IJ-70. It works great, and the ammunition is readily available (my favorite target ammunition is Sellier and Bellot).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alex, drum mags make everything better. Except Newbies. They are a disgrace to drum mag kind. But an M4 is good. But a G36 is shmexier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS Whiteout, if you didn't like my example...

 

My father has hit targets farther than I can see with a little 30-30

 

My grandfather hit a buffalo 800 yards out with a black powder rifle.

 

I am only 14 and I hit a "target" at 100 yards. Then again I had a good teacher :a-laugh:

 

But let's not get carried away, we should just help people.

Liked the example just fine, was just trying to demonstrate you were far underselling the importance and capabilities of good equipment mated with well trained shooters. Which is why I mostly spoke of the *shooters*.

 

Edited by verisimilitude
content against forum rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liked the example just fine, was just trying to demonstrate you were far underselling the importance and capabilities of good equipment mated with well trained shooters. Which is why I mostly spoke of the *shooters*.

 

And yeah, the gun, be it airsoft, paintball or real, is just an object. To make it something you can get your foes with, you need to learn how to use the object.

Edited by verisimilitude
content against forum rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess in those cases, it is more "knowing your target's behavior" than anything else, once the ability to hit your target properly is established.

Edited by verisimilitude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess in those cases, it is more "knowing your target's behavior" than anything else, once the ability to hit your target properly is established.

 

I think the scary part is this actually helps in regular tactics, understanding the way people move.

Edited by verisimilitude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M4 for support :\

 

No just no. He is looking for a SUPPORT weapon not a AR-15 with hi-caps. (Flame suit on as I will be bashing the AR-15.)

 

V2 gearboxes are more prone to cracking, and when playing milsim you can't use Hicap mags, unless you have a designated Support gun. The AR-15 is just not a good support weapon and never will be. Also all the upgrades you can do to a V2 you can do to a V3. Basically. The Rhop is the most important upgrade (IMO) and you can do them in AK's... The AK will be an all around better support weapon than an AR-15 any day.

 

Also only Newbies run drum mags and they think it makes them look cooler? That has to be the most absurd statement I have ever heard. Sure putting a Drum mag on a G36c, or an M4 is pretty "noobish" as those guns were meant for CQB but it has been done IN THE REAL WORLD. (Clicky Clicky) And then saying that they think they are cooler because they put it on? Thats just ridiculously ignorant to say.

 

Also with the AK, you can make it into a DMR as well. You can make any gun in Airsoft into any role you want. The AR-15 is NOT the best all around platform in fact I would say its the worst. The V2 shell is prone to cracking when putting in hotter springs which instantly makes it worse than the V3 gearboxes... The only thing that is good about the AR-15's is that everyone runs them. Parts/Mags are easily accessible and thats about it. Everything else about the AR-15 is junk compared to other platforms in airsoft.

 

I won't go on as I know I'm already starting a flame war as is... But please stop saying the AR-15 is a good platform IF YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY A TRUE SUPPORT ROLE!

 

Also Coyote link me some pics of your G36 :D I really want to see it.

 

Starting off I would like to say I'm not trying to start an argument.

 

You made many valid points too. I don't know if you read it right but he said he's not down for the support role anymore. I agree for a TRUE MILSIM support gunner, you need a LMG such as a saw, but an m4 with high caps can lay down the same amount of fire (I'm not advocating it, but it does the same thing). I'd assume their team is not going to actual milsim operations, and since the support gunner role is taken he has no need to spend the money on a LMG.

 

From Wikepedia, "A squad automatic weapon (SAW, also known as section automatic weapon or light support weapon) is a weapon used to give infantry squads or sections a portable source of automatic firepower." Usually this comes in the form of a LMG, but in airsoft a select fire m4 with a lot of BB's does the exact same thing, it is a portable source of automatic firepower.

 

I don't know about you but people at my airsoft field have ruined drum mags for me...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...