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sharxbyte

SB199: PASSED! Here's what CA Airsofters Need to do!

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I say we give California back to Mexico and build a 10 story electric fence separating it from bordering American states.

 

But we apparently don't have time rational solutions.

 

I'm anxious to see what gun magazine writers like Jeff Knox and John Conner will have to say about this. Conner will have a very tongue-in-cheek article if he talks about it, most likely penning his nostalgia of playing with BB and toy guns as a kid in contrast to today's whippersnappers not doing so as much. Meanwhile Knox will have his usual column on Shotgun News explaining the significance of this to the pro-2A community and rallying the Californians to vote Deleon and all who voted 'yes' to the bill out of office next election cycle.

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It's passed but won't take effect immediately. Between that time airsoft stakeholders can huddle up for options: either fight it and have it repealed or pony up the dough De Leon is blackmailing everyone for. The third option is to ditch Cali altogether and move the major retailers elsewhere. Hopefully if that happens it would turn belly up like Detroit and politicians like De Leon would just fade away or crawl back into the dirt.

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According to this video, all airsoft guns sold before 2016 are grandfathered in and do not need the flourescent tape crap on them. I've heard otherwise from various sources, can anyone confirm/deny this fact?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70LsxpqU-OE

Edited by B.A.M.F.

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According to this video, all airsoft guns sold before 2016 are grandfathered in and do not need the flourescent tape crap on them. I've heard otherwise from various sources, can anyone confirm/deny this fact?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70LsxpqU-OE

 

I read the bill in its entirety and saw nothing of grandfathering. this IS an ex-post-facto law, and as such, to be constitutional, would need to include a grandfathering clause, but the legislature doesn't tend to follow the rules of constitutionality...

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I agree with B.A.M.F, and have also heard similar talk, but we also have a year to figure it out. The language of the law is rather vague, there's too much there and a lot of it just has to do with buying/selling. You practically need to be a lawyer to read and understand laws these days, hopefully evike and some of the other places in CA will figure this one out.

 

The effects of this law on airsoft (both in CA and outside CA) as well as the extent of those effects, it all remains to be seen. How this law will effect the fields, the players, and just the number of people playing airsoft in CA -- I don't think anyone can know what will happen a year and three months from now.

 

For some guns it is impossible to follow the law: The gun might not have two of these three features.

ie. http://www.evike.com/products/33386/

pistol grip but no buttstock and no "protruding ammunition magazine or clip". So the law in short expects us to do something that may not be possible in certain cases.

 

BTW here's a thought, a "spot marker" (paintball) gun is exempted, as are other things like bb guns other than 6mm or 8mm. So what about a gun that has both features? Are they exempted or not? I ask because of things like: http://www.rockstartactical.com/product_p/goblin-solo-kit.htm

 

Not only is it both a paintball marker and an airsoft replica, but it is also small enough that it can also be grafted onto an existing airsoft replica.

Now if this is exempted under the spot marker clause, would a replica that has this grafted onto it also qualify as a spot marker? Seems like the law is counter-inclusive, so this might be a potential loophole that can be exploited.

Edited by Shutaro

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I read the bill in its entirety and saw nothing of grandfathering. this IS an ex-post-facto law, and as such, to be constitutional, would need to include a grandfathering clause, but the legislature doesn't tend to follow the rules of constitutionality...

Exactly. States are prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 1 of Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution. The Supreme Court has said this is only applicable to criminal matters. Not being a legal scholar, I'm not sure if this is applicable. Not complying with the requirements would become a criminal matter so it may be covered. Like Sharxbyte said, our legislature pretty much does what it want's regardless of Constitutional muster!

 

Like I said earlier, I'm a little disappointed it appears the industry caved in and "helped draft" the current law. I believe Governor Brown would have vetoed the original legislation (full color) as punitive and financially damaging to the industry.

Edited by aws1963

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The industry only stepped in when it had to, the original law was full safety colors (in their entirety, ie. the whole gun a bright flourescent color) and had enough support to pass as it was written. By the industry stepping in, they reduced it to what it is now.

 

I have my own feelings about the airsoft industry in general, I mean, I don't feel that airsoft replicas are anywhere near as developed as they could be. But I don't think they were wrong to step in. If this bill had passed as originally written, it would have probably killed airsoft outright in CA. Banking it all on the governor vetoing -- I wouldn't want that, especially with this governor. IMO even if the governor did veto it, de leon would just keep trying, year after year, until he passed it. He's got a bug up his #@% when it comes to airsoft.

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The industry only stepped in when it had to, the original law was full safety colors (in their entirety, ie. the whole gun a bright flourescent color) and had enough support to pass as it was written. By the industry stepping in, they reduced it to what it is now.

 

I have my own feelings about the airsoft industry in general, I mean, I don't feel that airsoft replicas are anywhere near as developed as they could be. But I don't think they were wrong to step in. If this bill had passed as originally written, it would have probably killed airsoft outright in CA. Banking it all on the governor vetoing -- I wouldn't want that, especially with this governor. IMO even if the governor did veto it, de leon would just keep trying, year after year, until he passed it. He's got a bug up his #<AT>% when it comes to airsoft.

 

Very true. As for needing to be a legal scholar to understand and read legislation, I think that people who assume such are selling themselves short, and/or lazy. I've had a good 5 years (amateur) practice (wrong word? I'm not paid, but I also don't have any great love of the sport, that is, the reading of legislation) and am fairly good at picking out the important bits and deciphering it.

 

By alienating yourselves from reading and trying to understand legislation, you contribute to the general ignorance which has already allowed the legislature to do so much damage.

 

the jargon and organization are all similar, and after reading a few (or one multiple times) you begin to follow the structure. I encourage you to read this one in its entirety (it's really not all that large) because it affects you, and because you already have a decent summary at your disposal to help you understand.

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The industry only stepped in when it had to, the original law was full safety colors (in their entirety, ie. the whole gun a bright flourescent color) and had enough support to pass as it was written. By the industry stepping in, they reduced it to what it is now.

 

I have my own feelings about the airsoft industry in general, I mean, I don't feel that airsoft replicas are anywhere near as developed as they could be. But I don't think they were wrong to step in. If this bill had passed as originally written, it would have probably killed airsoft outright in CA. Banking it all on the governor vetoing -- I wouldn't want that, especially with this governor. IMO even if the governor did veto it, de leon would just keep trying, year after year, until he passed it. He's got a bug up his #<AT>% when it comes to airsoft.

I understand not wanting to "poke the bear". Conversely, Governor Brown has proven to be quite level headed on issues that would have significant impact on an industry. Adding a "stripe" of color is not my concern. Can you for one minute tell me that this is the end? Will Deleon say "Cool, I'm done"? I believe exactly the opposite will occur. Once you capitulate to a arrogant fool like Deleon, he becomes empowered and will without a doubt re-introduce the bill in it's original form next year, the year after and on and on until we have as one poster said so accurately "Clown Guns". Here's why:

 

The anti 2A crowd has shifted from actual gun legislation that always fails to targeting the youth's interest in guns/shooting. If they can make "toys" illegal or with wild colors (undesirable), the interest will slowly fade and the core value of the 2A quickly becomes a distant memory. Would you be motivated to protect a right you care nothing about. You should, but no vested interest leads to "no interest". Our youth continue to be bombarded with "guns are bad" FUD and eventually with lie after lie, they will believe it. Most terrifying is they are the voters and political leaders of the future.

Edited by aws1963

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Sharxbyte I understand what you are saying but there are also times that I believe to absorb yourself with something is to to yield to it (or let it control you). In my belief/religion there is a saying that "the more laws that are posted, the more robbers and thieves there are". In essence the laws makes robbers and thieves of normally honest men.

 

Even so, I have tried to read the law with a logical mind and find it rather confusing. Not what is said but what is not said. I still pose the question of if a device is both a spot (paintball) marker and an airsoft replica, would it be exempted on the basis of being a spot marker? Or not. And what of a replica that does not have 2 of the three features listed, how can it comply under the law? It is logically impossible!

 

Aws1963, I do agree that de-leon will never stop. He is obsesssed, and that is the dark side of obsession. It's like a gambler who wins a small amount, if he is a gambler by nature, he bets bigger and plays bigger. de-leon is the scorpion that stings the frog on his back while being carried when halfway across the river. Anyone who gets in bed with him deserves the same fate. But let's not forget that this bill was amended in the house, not the senate, so it was a different group of politicians that they worked with (and maybe only once they realized it was inevitably going to pass anyways).

 

The dream I had last night was truly awful, it was about the future of airsoft (in 2020). I really hope airsoft isn't like how it was in my dream.

Edited by Shutaro

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I still pose the question of if a device is both a spot (paintball) marker and an airsoft replica, would it be exempted on the basis of being a spot marker? Or not. And what of a replica that does not have 2 of the three features listed, how can it comply under the law? It is logically impossible!

The law seems pretty clear that an 'airsoft gun' is any BB gun that expels a projectile (including, but not limited to) BB's and pellets in either 6mm caliber or 8mm caliber. Meanwhile spot markers are defined as firing paint-rounds that are greater than 10mm caliber. The loophole for an airsoft gun to circumvent the regulations would have to be a gun that is capable of STRICTLY firing +10mm ammunition that easily can be used for paintball. RAP4 without a 6mm conversion, basically.

 

Do you SERIOUSLY want to play airsoft with +10mm caliber plastic BB's? If yes, then you have a way to circumvent the bright colors or clear/smokey plastic. And honestly, a translucent smokey plastic is more realsim in comparison, and thus more aesthetically pleasing for airsofters to use without UK-esque coloration. Not a solution to the overall problem, but I'd rather use Canadian-soft over Brit-soft if I was in this pickle in my state.

Edited by Dmitri

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Dmitri here is my reading of the law:

 

(a) I take -any- to mean that if even one of the following is true, it is not included.

 


16700. (a) As used in this part, “imitation firearm” means any BB device, toy gun, replica of a firearm, or other device that is so substantially similar in coloration and overall appearance to an existing firearm as to lead a reasonable person to perceive that the device is a firearm.
(b) As used in Section 20165, “imitation firearm” does not include any of the following:

(A), (B), (I), (ii), and (iii) apply only to (4), further reinforcing this logic is that (4) uses the phrase "which meets the following".


(1) A nonfiring collector’s replica that is historically significant, and is offered for sale in conjunction with a wall plaque or presentation case.
(2) A spot marker gun which expels a projectile that is greater than 10mm caliber.
(3) A BB device that expels a projectile, such as a BB or pellet, that is other than 6mm or 8mm caliber.
(4) A BB device that is an airsoft gun that expels a projectile, such as a BB or pellet, that is 6mm or 8mm caliber which meets the following:
(A) If the airsoft gun is configured as a handgun, in addition to the blaze orange ring on the barrel required by federal law, the airsoft gun has a trigger guard that has fluorescent coloration over the entire guard, and there is a two centimeter wide adhesive band around the circumference of the protruding pistol grip that has fluorescent coloration.
(B) If the airsoft gun is configured as a rifle or long gun, in addition to the blaze orange ring on the barrel required by federal law, the airsoft gun has a trigger guard that has fluorescent coloration over the entire guard, and there is a two centimeter wide adhesive band with fluorescent coloring around the circumference of any two of the following:
(I) The protruding pistol grip.
(ii) The buttstock.
(iii) A protruding ammunition magazine or clip.
(5) A device where the entire exterior surface of the device is white, bright red, bright orange, bright yellow, bright green, bright blue, bright pink, or bright purple, either singly or as the predominant color in combination with other colors in any pattern, or where the entire device is constructed of transparent or translucent materials which permits unmistakable observation of the device’s complete contents.
© The adhesive bands described in paragraph (4) of subdivision (b) shall be applied in a manner not intended for removal, and shall be in place on the airsoft gun prior to sale to a customer.
(d) This section shall be operative on January 1, 2016.

 

So by satisfying (2) or (3) in the above, or even (5), but who would want to do that -- there is no need to concern oneself with (4).

 

Now let's take a closer look at 2. (2) A spot marker gun which expels a projectile that is greater than 10mm caliber.

This is somewhat ambiguous as there is no given legal definition of 'spot marker gun'. Presumably this is a paintball marker. Is this inclusive or exclusive? I suppose that (3) may be easier to satisfy regardless.

 

Of particular concern is also this, what happens if your gun breaks in the field, otherwise becomes nonfunctioning? Then it suddenly becomes illegal because it can no longer expel a projectile!

 

Would someone also point me to the law itself that makes transport of non-exempted "imitation firearms" illegal? A lot of 20150-20180 only refers to "commercial use". I ask because the first post in this message alludes to this being illegal.

 

"The law requires that any airsoft guns you will be transferring, or transporting (among other things) have new markings added..."

 

Is it illegal under all circumstances or only for commercial use? Most of what players do is transport the replicas to / from the field. This is recreational use not commercial.

Edited by Shutaro

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So I'm still slightly confused by this. Does this mean that if I buy a gun from Evike that it's going to get to my house and be neon? If so, I'm going to have a SERIOUS problem with it.

 

 

Edit: Even partially neon would suck. Which is what I'm thinking this means.

Edited by TacticalAK47

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Guest alberty

So I'm still slightly confused by this. Does this mean that if I buy a gun from Evike that it's going to get to my house and be neon? If so, I'm going to have a SERIOUS problem with it.

 

 

Edit: Even partially neon would suck. Which is what I'm thinking this means.

 

I thought a lot of retailer representatives were clarifying that it's not the whole gun, but an orange tip (as usual), colored trigger guard, and then colored combination of tape on the pistol grip, magazine, or stock.

Edited by alberty

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Well, okay then. I guess that'll be good for camouflaging yourself... If you were having a match in an amusement park. On one hand I understand why they would make the law, since people are sometimes stupid and careless, carrying it around in public. Then they get shot and the police get in trouble. (This isn't the only case, but it's an example.) But on the other hand it's a little bit annoying for the responsible airsofters who don't want their gun all neon when they get it shipped to them. (If that's the case. I'm still not completely sure of all the details.)

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Sharxbyte I understand what you are saying but there are also times that I believe to absorb yourself with something is to to yield to it (or let it control you). In my belief/religion there is a saying that "the more laws that are posted, the more robbers and thieves there are". In essence the laws makes robbers and thieves of normally honest men.

 

Even so, I have tried to read the law with a logical mind and find it rather confusing. Not what is said but what is not said. I still pose the question of if a device is both a spot (paintball) marker and an airsoft replica, would it be exempted on the basis of being a spot marker? Or not. And what of a replica that does not have 2 of the three features listed, how can it comply under the law? It is logically impossible!

 

Aws1963, I do agree that de-leon will never stop. He is obsesssed, and that is the dark side of obsession. It's like a gambler who wins a small amount, if he is a gambler by nature, he bets bigger and plays bigger. de-leon is the scorpion that stings the frog on his back while being carried when halfway across the river. Anyone who gets in bed with him deserves the same fate. But let's not forget that this bill was amended in the house, not the senate, so it was a different group of politicians that they worked with (and maybe only once they realized it was inevitably going to pass anyways).

 

The dream I had last night was truly awful, it was about the future of airsoft (in 2020). I really hope airsoft isn't like how it was in my dream.

 

 

The law specifies that a device which expels a bb is included. Also having the ability to expel a paintball does not remove the BB expelling capability. no loophole there.

Edited by sharxbyte

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sharxbyte, 20165 if the code that controls the commercial exchange of items so it is at least part of the 'meat' of the law. I can't find what 16700 refers to, the term 'as used in this part' is somewhat nonspecific. The rest of the code around 20165 refers to things like display in public places, modification, etc.

 

If I say 'any of these things are excluded', I assume that is inclusive, as the usage of the term 'any' almost always is. Short of some other usage on the same level as 'any'. But honestly I would have to say check with a lawyer, because probably neither one of us are experts in laws or the way (and mindset with which) they are supposed to be read.

 

code follows:

 

16700. (a) As used in this part, “imitation firearm” means any BB device, toy gun, replica of a firearm, or other device that is so substantially similar in coloration and overall appearance to an existing firearm as to lead a reasonable person to perceive that the device is a firearm.
(b) As used in Section 20165, “imitation firearm” does not include any of the following:

(A), (B), (I), (ii), and (iii) apply only to (4), further reinforcing this logic is that (4) uses the phrase "which meets the following".


(1) A nonfiring collector’s replica that is historically significant, and is offered for sale in conjunction with a wall plaque or presentation case.
(2) A spot marker gun which expels a projectile that is greater than 10mm caliber.
(3) A BB device that expels a projectile, such as a BB or pellet, that is other than 6mm or 8mm caliber.
(4) A BB device that is an airsoft gun that expels a projectile, such as a BB or pellet, that is 6mm or 8mm caliber which meets the following:

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Can't seem to edit my last post, so I have to add this one.

I wonder if this is one manufacturer's answer to SB199.

 

http://cdn1.evike.com/images/large/mb-gp-m16vn.jpg

or the full link if that one does not work:

http://www.evike.com/products/49872/?fb_action_ids=932302776799074

 

As 5.98mm is not 6mm.

 

It SEEMS that it would count as a BB device of non 6mm/8mm calibers(Item (3) in the law), but I was under the impression that most (if not all) quality BB's were just under 6mm exactly to begin with for tolerance-clearance purposes. I wonder if the 6mm/8mm caliber classification is not so much for the ammo itself but what the inner barrel is CAPABLE of expelling caliber-wise at its maximum. That seems to be the reasoning for why paint-markers are exempt from the coloration since they are intended for 10mm and up.

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Same here, I'm told in the range of 5.96 to 5.99mm, though I've never measured it myself. I don't have the tools for those kinds of fine measurements.

 

In science you have the concept of 'significant figures', 6mm and 8mm is only one significant figure, so it would cover the ranges from 5.5mm to 6.5mm and 7.5mm to 8.5mm. But that is science, not law. I don't know what concept or standard laws or legal documents use.

Edited by Shutaro

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http://news.&lt;PLEASE DO NOT POST YAHOO ACCOUNTS IN YOUR MESSAGES&gt;/ohio-police-man-painted-gun-resemble-toy-191312865.html

 

 


The bill, introduced Monday by Rep. Alicia Reece, would require all BB guns, air rifles and airsoft guns stand out in color or have prominent fluorescent strips. The Cincinnati Democrat named the bill after 22-year-old John Crawford III, who was carrying an air rifle this summer in a suburban Dayton Wal-Mart store when he was fatally shot by police. Police said they thought Crawford had an assault rifle. Last month, a 12-year-old boy carrying a pellet gun in Cleveland was fatally shot by police.

The legislation was modeled after a California law. Several other states and cities have similar laws.

 

Just thought this was interesting. After the success in CA, the contagion is starting to spread.

Edited by Shutaro

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http://news.&lt;PLEASE DO NOT POST YAHOO ACCOUNTS IN YOUR MESSAGES&gt;/ohio-police-man-painted-gun-resemble-toy-191312865.html

 

 

 

Just thought this was interesting. After the success in CA, the contagion is starting to spread.

Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, this is a common trait with CA legislation.

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It's like SB199 all over again ;-;

 

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/s213/text

 

Here is a petition that everyone should sign - taken from Airsoft Mechanics: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/end-attack-sport-airsoft/dkGRjlPZ

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It's like SB199 all over again ;-;

 

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/s213/text

 

Here is a petition that everyone should sign - taken from Airsoft Mechanics: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/end-attack-sport-airsoft/dkGRjlPZ

I don't think we will be able to get the petition signed in time :(

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I love how paintball is always excluded from these onerous prohibitions.

 

Unfortunately these laws are like a phoenix, every time you shoot one attempt down, another attempt rises, some even more perilous than the last. We may ultimately have no choice but to try to live with these laws, so we ought to start thinking about what that means and how to survive it. Can we turn a bad thing into a good thing? I don't know.

 

Perhaps these stupid laws may ultimately be a boon for airsoft. While prohibition was designed to reduce or stop the user of alcohol, in reality, it contributed greatly to its rise. It's no secret that alcohol use increased during prohibition, most notably, the 'base' grew wider as more and diffferent classes of people consumed significant amounts of alcohol. Right now, airsoft is still an activity that is really only practiced by a relatively small and narrow demographic (I would say more limited than paintball). Perhaps the underground community of players that come as a result of these laws will grow far larger and wider than what airsoft is now. Contrast this to paintball, where 'outlaw' ball never really took off or had much a following b'cos there were always plenty of organizations, bodies, and places to play; and what this brought about for paintball in the end (a boom and a bust, unsustainable growth).

Edited by Shutaro

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I love how paintball is always excluded from these onerous prohibitions.

 

Unfortunately these laws are like a phoenix, every time you shoot one attempt down, another attempt rises, some even more perilous than the last. We may ultimately have no choice but to try to live with these laws, so we ought to start thinking about what that means and how to survive it. Can we turn a bad thing into a good thing? I don't know.

 

Perhaps these stupid laws may ultimately be a boon for airsoft. While prohibition was designed to reduce or stop the user of alcohol, in reality, it contributed greatly to its rise. It's no secret that alcohol use increased during prohibition, most notably, the 'base' grew wider as more and diffferent classes of people consumed significant amounts of alcohol. Right now, airsoft is still an activity that is really only practiced by a relatively small and narrow demographic (I would say more limited than paintball). Perhaps the underground community of players that come as a result of these laws will grow far larger and wider than what airsoft is now. Contrast this to paintball, where 'outlaw' ball never really took off or had much a following b'cos there were always plenty of organizations, bodies, and places to play; and what this brought about for paintball in the end (a boom and a bust, unsustainable growth).

The same can be said about gun control, there have never been so many guns sold in such a short period of time, gun companies are at highs right now. In 2008 we didn't own a any guns in our family, as of 2011 we got our first glock, and as of 2015we have 6 ar-15's, 2 scar-H's, 4 glock 19's, and lots of .22 rifles (one is ever fully auto, it shoots crazy fast). While they were trying to reduce the amount of guns instead we're reaching close to twice as many guns as we had. All I'm saying is that if this new bill goes through I'm not giving up my airsoft guns.

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Yeah, except with gun control, the mere threat of legislation will cause more people to acquire more guns. So the worst thing a pro-gun-control politician can do is to _talk_ about gun control. Especially if he doesn't have the acumen to follow the talk through and get a law passed. Just look at the current effect that the threat of a ban on certain types of ammunition is having currently, and who benefits as bullet sales rise, and the value of bullet stocks (not economic instruments, but bullets in storage) goes up.

 

The difference is with airsoft, the mere threat of legislation doesn't stimulate their sales in any significant way. Stores and companies aren't working behind our back to reinforce rumors or try to stroke fear and paranoia into others. Shop owners, manufacturers, distributors, online sites, etc. would be the losers if these laws passed, forced underground and forced to compete with a new class of illicit 'garage' dealers and manufacturers; and they know it.

Edited by Shutaro

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Yeah, except with gun control, the mere threat of legislation will cause more people to acquire more guns. So the worst thing a pro-gun-control politician can do is to _talk_ about gun control. Especially if he doesn't have the acumen to follow the talk through and get a law passed. Just look at the current effect that the threat of a ban on certain types of ammunition is having currently, and who benefits as bullet sales rise, and the value of bullet stocks (not economic instruments, but bullets in storage) goes up.

 

The difference is with airsoft, the mere threat of legislation doesn't stimulate their sales in any significant way. Stores and companies aren't working behind our back to reinforce rumors or try to stroke fear and paranoia into others. Shop owners, manufacturers, distributors, online sites, etc. would be the losers if these laws passed, forced underground and forced to compete with a new class of illicit 'garage' dealers and manufacturers; and they know it.

That is true but if this passes I'm going to spend around $2000 on different airsoft guns.

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Well yeah the Tippmann M4 is a model 98 paintball marker with a response trigger scaled down and altered a bit to make a select fire bb gun.

 

Polar Star type kits use a solenoid and electronic board to fire/control the gun right? Typical speedball marker.

Edited by SlamSlayer

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Yeah I just double checked. P* is a low pressure regulated poppet engine with controlled dwell, fire rate, etc via the board. Exactly like a paintball marker.

Well yes like speed ball but not much like your average paintball marker.

I want to buy this one so bad.

 

http://www.ansgear.com/Tiberius_Arms_T15_Paintball_Gun_Black_p/tiberiusarms15black.htm

Edited by MrGearbox

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