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THE_SUPERWEIRDO

A good, reliable GBB for target practice.

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Hello Airsoft Forum! :a-salute:

 

I'm clearly a gunless newbie here, and I have some questions that are currently delaying me from getting on....

 

After looking through various choices of GBBs, what mostly caught most of my attention is the WE MSK. I seem to not find that much GBBs that is modeled after the Masada/ACR,, so the gun is mostly a favorite due to aesthetic value. Other than that, I also like how the overall gun functions, like how it easily disassembles and the ambidextrous controls. My only concerns about it is finding a good vendor that sells this gun for a good value with good quality. I'm also concerned about any unknown problems and their remedies about the WE MSK, like something about cycling issues.

 

A G&G CM-16 Gas blowback is another choice of mine. It's the a GBB that is an M4 variant, something that is more common than the WE MSK. It's also the cheapest GBB I found anywhere that has some good feedback in terms of performance and value. My only concerns about it is whether or not there's metal parts for it to replace the polymer body. I've heard that the polymer body from G&G are good quality, but I think having metal parts would extend its durability and add the realism factor. (I'm not sure the G&G Top Tech metal body is compatible with the G&G gas blowback internals...)

 

I've also thought about getting a KWA LM4. It seems to be the popular GBB around the sub-$400 market. I feel, however, that an upgraded WE M4 is equivalent to a stock LM4... In other words, the only draw back to me getting a LM4 is that it'll get pricey over time. (Buying mags, replacement parts, green gas (I think I can't use propane with the LM4)

 

The WE M4 is a compromised choice of mine. It's between the KWA LM4 and the CM16 in terms of price, but has a metal body unlike the CM-16 and is cheaper than the WE MSK (Thinking about a WE M4 w/o pre-installed steel internals) It's the reputation of WE-Tech that makes me question both the MSK and their M4 line. I've seen both sides of the spectrum of WE haters and WE believers and I think I conclude that with good maintenance and proper use (Which reminds me, what are some good maintenance tips for GBBs? :help: Hard to find any clear guides that says things like which silicon oil to use for the bolt and mags)

 

What do you guys think?

Another question I might ask is whether WE-TECH is as bad as they say? Or is it just their low-prices that are so attractive to the unexperienced that it leads to un-proper use and maintenance, leading to their bad rep?

 

I should explain what my intentions of getting a GBB instead of the everyday AEG. I mostly want to use a GBB as a practice tool and even as a fun backyard plinking gun, so the stress factor of being used in an actual force-on-force airsoft match is almost completely absent. (There's always that one day where I'll actually might start up playing airsoft :P ) So that said, I'm probably going to get one of these and just stick with it, paying a lot of attention to it with care, until the gun ceases to function any further.

 

So anyway, thank you for any responses! (And sorry for the barrage of text :a-confused: )

 

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This is Airsoft. American Consumerism does not apply. It is a you get what you pay for no warranty implied buyer beware market.

 

There is a reason why items are cheap...and its not due to it being "good". Like the G&G Gas M4 with the GHK Gas mechbox. It's really has many major drawbacks.

 

WE products...I am not a believer in a company that you have to buy their product and then BUY upgrade parts to make it work decently.

 

You should consider a WOC as a choice if you are looking to get into GAS guns and have real AR experience.

 

With that...what is your budget?

Edited by Guges Mk3

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This is Airsoft. American Consumerism does not apply. It is a you get what you pay for no warranty implied buyer beware market.

 

There is a reason why items are cheap...and its not due to it being "good". Like the G&G Gas M4 with the GHK Gas mechbox. It's really have many major drawbacks.

 

WE products...I am not a believer in a company that you have to buy their product and then BUY upgrade parts to make it work decently.

 

You should consider a WOC as a choice if you are looking to get into GAS guns and have real AR experience.

 

With that...what is your budget?

 

Thanks for the response!

The most I'm planning on spending is around $400, possibly under that price point as much as possible.

As for the topic of upgrading, I only plan on upgrading when a part is broken and no longer functions properly, so upgrading a stock gun right away is something I'm not planning on doing... (I guess I got to learn what I need through using it :P )

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Is that budget including mags and other items?

The budget I plan to include the gun, one extra mag (The gun is for target practice, so I guess an extra mag would be an optional choice), some maintenance items like silicon oil, and probably even a propane adapter.

And just to save money, I'm planning on running with stock parts as much as possible.

Edited by THE_SUPERWEIRDO

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The deal with WE is they like to keep their prices in the middle. You get peak interest and availability on the bell curve this way. Statistically, because there's more out there you'll also hear more of the problems which is more prevalent when a model is new. They're cheap due to lacking testing (they let the eager fanboys do it for them) and use cheaper materials for internals. If you want to get a reliable WE you need to get something old that's had revisions in design/materials from the factory due to the findings of early testers (their ARs for exampe). And even their less reliable models still have their fixes, mostly DIY as I can attest with my AK. Normally they're known to break their hammers under 1k rounds but I discovered a simple strip of rubber as a buffer is all it takes and one person using my method is clean past 20k without so much as a hiccup. I highly suggest browsing through review threads over at Arnies Airsoft as they are more comprehensive on GBBRs and not just on WE.

WOCs are good if you get the one with a steel FCG. Otherwise it would be equivalent to getting a WE which nees replacing after 15-20k rounds. Good thing stock parts are cheap enough to consider consumable, even bolt carriers. And GHK G5 mags seem to be the best performers and cheaper than Pro Win. With that, you may want to get the newer GHK M4 altogether if you're after an AR. WA based essentially but with mostly steel internals including the BCG.

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The deal with WE is they like to keep their prices in the middle. You get peak interest and availability on the bell curve this way. Statistically, because there's more out there you'll also hear more of the problems which is more prevalent when a model is new. They're cheap due to lacking testing (they let the eager fanboys do it for them) and use cheaper materials for internals. If you want to get a reliable WE you need to get something old that's had revisions in design/materials from the factory due to the findings of early testers (their ARs for exampe). And even their less reliable models still have their fixes, mostly DIY as I can attest with my AK. Normally they're known to break their hammers under 1k rounds but I discovered a simple strip of rubber as a buffer is all it takes and one person using my method is clean past 20k without so much as a hiccup. I highly suggest browsing through review threads over at Arnies Airsoft as they are more comprehensive on GBBRs and not just on WE.

WOCs are good if you get the one with a steel FCG. Otherwise it would be equivalent to getting a WE which nees replacing after 15-20k rounds. Good thing stock parts are cheap enough to consider consumable, even bolt carriers. And GHK G5 mags seem to be the best performers and cheaper than Pro Win. With that, you may want to get the newer GHK M4 altogether if you're after an AR. WA based essentially but with mostly steel internals including the BCG.

Thanks for the info. :D

From what you said, the good WE guns are the revisioned models that went under testing, no? I did some researching before hand and found that the problem with WE is mostly about their mags, the screws, and some parts in the internals. So I'm guessing for a WE gun, get the WE M4 over the WE MSK? (The MSK seems a bit new, since I've only seen little info about them)

And I guess I have more brands that I have to look into...

 

 

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Right now the relatively trouble-free models they have are the ARs and G36. The older magazines were definitely a PITA but the latest ones (designed after their G36) run like champs. The MSK has a few problems but again remedied by backyard fixes. It shares the same mags as ARs and the bolt carrier design is similar to their proven G36. The only part I'd caution is the FCG. It's only similar in design with their ARs but different enough to be proprietary though I haven't heard of anyone having problems with that yet. I'd say as a precaution wait until stock parts become available or when the steel set is released by Zparts. It may be a while though as the model isn't very popular due to Remington scare mongering that they'll stop stores from selling it. Personally I find it too heavy for an assault rifle, heavier than a tricked out M4 despite all the polymer parts which is why a friend of mine sold his off.

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Right now the relatively trouble-free models they have are the ARs and G36. The older magazines were definitely a PITA but the latest ones (designed after their G36) run like champs. The MSK has a few problems but again remedied by backyard fixes. It shares the same mags as ARs and the bolt carrier design is similar to their proven G36. The only part I'd caution is the FCG. It's only similar in design with their ARs but different enough to be proprietary though I haven't heard of anyone having problems with that yet. I'd say as a precaution wait until stock parts become available or when the steel set is released by Zparts. It may be a while though as the model isn't very popular due to Remington scare mongering that they'll stop stores from selling it. Personally I find it too heavy for an assault rifle, heavier than a tricked out M4 despite all the polymer parts which is why a friend of mine sold his off.

Hmmm...

So I'm guessing the M4 route is a much safer way to go then. :D I can maybe wait for the MSK, then again I won't plan on abusing any guns, practically going to baby any gun I get since it is just for practice shooting.

It seems replacement parts for the MSK is also a problem, like the FCG (The Fire Control Group?). Slightly off-topic, but would not going full auto help lengthen the life of the internals? I'm expecting to use semi most of the time (With full-auto just being there for fun)

If I were to get the MSK, the first initial upgrade I'll do is switching the hand guard to the polymer one, hopefully bringing down the weight of the gun and make the weight centered more.

As of now, I'm leaning towards getting a WE M4 or maybe even a KWA LM4... Which I haven't heard people around hear talk about :P Is more profitable for me to start stock with a WE M4 and upgrade slowly over time or stick with a stock KWA LM4 and stay stock? I'm still interested on the MSK, even though there's potential problems about it, only if I can find it somewhere a bit cheaper online... And are there any stores you guys can recommend me that sells a stock WE M4 for cheap? The cheapest I've found it was on evike.com

I also want to know how proper maintenance can be done on GBBs. It's really hard to find detailed videos on that topic, where most of them are just about what to use or about cleaning gbb pistols

Thanks again for the response!

Edited by THE_SUPERWEIRDO

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I'm only really reading up on issues about the MSK from people who play with them a lot. For the time my friend had his, he didn't really run into anything which I'm estimating was used in the region of 5-7k rounds. Refraining from firing in full-auto will only keep the gun running longer by not firing as many rounds but the sears for either mode are often separate parts and wear down independent from each other. For maintenance it's pretty much like pistols. Have the sears/hammer lubed with heavy grease (ceramic, lithium etc) to minimize wear and keeping it smooth. Lube the piston o-ring with medium silicone oil. Dust off the bolt carrier and apply a thin film of grease (only with BCGs running on tracks like the AK, on ARs it's not too important).

I don't have 1st hand experience with the LM4 but from the reviews it's about as reliable as KJW. Mags are a little bit more expensive though.

Edited by renegadecow

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I'm only really reading up on issues about the MSK from people who play with them a lot. For the time my friend had his, he didn't really run into anything which I'm estimating was used in the region of 5-7k rounds. Refraining from firing in full-auto will only keep the gun running longer by not firing as many rounds but the sears for either mode are often separate parts and wear down independent from each other. For maintenance it's pretty much like pistols. Have the sears/hammer lubed with heavy grease (ceramic, lithium etc) to minimize wear and keeping it smooth. Lube the piston o-ring with medium silicone oil. Dust off the bolt carrier and apply a thin film of grease (only with BCGs running on tracks like the AK, on ARs it's not too important).

I don't have 1st hand experience with the LM4 but from the reviews it's about as reliable as KJW. Mags are a little bit more expensive though.

Thanks! I didn't know that grease is used for the sear springs and the bolt :o I honestly thought all can just be lubricated with silicon oil.... :a-shocked:

Do you have any quick recommendations for any all purpose grease that I can easily get from somewhere like evike, airsoft gi, etc.?

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LM4 magazines are definitely on the expensive side, thats assume you can find them. People sell used LM4 magazines for above the 40.00 mark, and they can pull that in because of the limited numbers available. don't even start if you want the LM4 PMAGs...

 

Personally I am not a fan of the LM4 hopup system, any many people tend to have complaints about it.

 

WE MSK. Their original nozzles run into issues, but as renegadecow said, DIY. Most people replace the MSK nozzle with a WE M4 nozzle to remedy the issue. They also come with the fancy PMAGs.

 

WE ARs are among the proven platforms. Maintained correctly, they run exceptionally well stock, and really don't need parts until something breaks. OEM parts are easy to find as well, and don't cost an arm and a leg (cough KWA). Even their slightly less reliable models (SCAR, etc) run fine. Ive clocked about 15000 rounds on my OB conversion SCAR, 100% stock, and Im not the first owner.

 

If you are a real AR owner, WEs can take a good amount of real parts (upper receivers being a big plus, with mods) which is nice.

 

WE G39 is a proven platform, and rather cheap on the WE price spectrum. Also the IdZ Future Soldier kits...

 

That being said, if you go WE, you basically need V2 magazines. V1s have leaking problems. WE magazines are easy to find (new), and cheap compared to the LM4 (~30.00). You can use the MSK PMAGs in WE ARs as well. You can also buy real magazine shells (M3 PMAGs, EMAGs, etc) and mod them to fit WE internals.

 

If you go G&P WOC, buy the steel BCG model, as recommended above. The Aluminum versions (the Evike "challenge kits" as well) are not as robust or reliable.

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Silicone oil spray works but doesn't last very long and doesn't reduce friction as much. I only really use it for o-rings and similar gas seals. For mechanical parts you want grease. Lithium and teflon is easy to find at bike shops same as molly. Personally I use Tamiya ceramic, bit pricey but a tube will last you a year at least.

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Thanks and sorry for yet another question, hopefully a final one... (A bit delayed too >.< )

But what are your guy's recommendation on where I can buy the latest version of the WE M4? And while I'm at it, where can I also get a WE MSK? (For reference)

This forum is really helping me with my decisions, so I really appreciate all the help through responding.

Edited by THE_SUPERWEIRDO

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Thanks and sorry for yet another question, hopefully a final one... (A bit delayed too >.< )

But what are your guy's recommendation on where I can buy the latest version of the WE M4? And while I'm at it, where can I also get a WE MSK? (For reference)

This forum is really helping me with my decisions, so I really appreciate all the help through responding.

 

Hong Kong....but I do not recommend WE's to a new user like you. They get finicky and if you don't have a legacy of experience in tinkering with these things...your going to get frustrated.

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Or just get the PTS Masada.....

 

Comes with full steel lower and it's WA compatible for all of the parts except the bolt carrier.

 

Have mine for about a year now, field it pretty much every weekend.

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Or just get the PTS Masada.....

 

Comes with full steel lower and it's WA compatible for all of the parts except the bolt carrier.

 

Have mine for about a year now, field it pretty much every weekend.

I would love to get the PTS Masada, if the budget allowed me to XD I am however confused with the differences with the WA system and the WE system of gas blowback...

 

So I'm guessing getting a WE gun from Hong Kong would be another option, but how about somewhere like Blowback Armory or Airsoft GI for the WE MSK or even the WE M4 on Evike?

And I am fully aware that WE's are kinda like the "Tinkering" gun, where I would have to know a lot, which I don't really... But I'm planning on staying stock and keeping the internals the same as they are. And personally, I would rather trouble myself with a GBB that has mechanical parts rather than an AEG with lots of gears and wiring that I completely don't understand :a-shocked:

What I fear is a gun that will be broken by just simply using it :/ I'm basically going to use it for backyard recreational target shooting, so I'm not putting it though hard use anytime soon. (I'm not planning on doing any skirmishes in the near future)

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I would love to get the PTS Masada, if the budget allowed me to XD I am however confused with the differences with the WA system and the WE system of gas blowback...

 

So I'm guessing getting a WE gun from Hong Kong would be another option, but how about somewhere like Blowback Armory or Airsoft GI for the WE MSK or even the WE M4 on Evike?

And I am fully aware that WE's are kinda like the "Tinkering" gun, where I would have to know a lot, which I don't really... But I'm planning on staying stock and keeping the internals the same as they are. And personally, I would rather trouble myself with a GBB that has mechanical parts rather than an AEG with lots of gears and wiring that I completely don't understand :a-shocked:

What I fear is a gun that will be broken by just simply using it :/ I'm basically going to use it for backyard recreational target shooting, so I'm not putting it though hard use anytime soon. (I'm not planning on doing any skirmishes in the near future)

 

The MSKs that Evike offer have the crane stocks on them, as opposed to the folding/adjustable stocks. Any MSK would have to be overseas. However, they are a newer system, and have some cycling issues. Most owners replace the nozzle with an M4 nozzle, they tend to do better.

 

WE M4s can be purchased from Evike as well.

 

With WE GBBRs, unless you really happen to get a lemon, they run fine on stock internals, unless you really abuse the system. The only thing you really "need" is an NPAS, if applicable, which it really isnt in your scenario.

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