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vanevery

Interest in Achieving Max Range and Accuracy with 1 Joule Only

Interest in Achieving Max Range and Accuracy with 1 Joule Only  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you interested in building an airsoft gun to achieve the max distance and accuracy it can with a max power limit of 1 Joule?

  2. 2. Are you interested in building an airsoft gun to achieve the max distance and accuracy it can with a max power limit of the Japan standard of .98 Joule?

  3. 3. Are you interested in Tournament Style shooting competitions to set official records regarding max shooting distance and accuracy?



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The subject of long range shooting in airsoft seems to be a priority interest with the majority of airsofters.

Whether it Sniper and DMR, or just Field Rifles, the average airsofter wants their guns to shoot long distance with a high rate of accuracy.

 

Airsoft originated in Japan in the 1970's.

Manufacturers such as Masudaya, Fujimi, and Matsushiro began to pave the way.

Then Maruzin and Tokyo Marui progressed the quality and technology.

Tokyo Marui is credited with designing, manufacturing, and selling the first AEG's on the market.

Their specifications of internal and external parts are industry standard and are the baseline for all airsoft manufacturers, even those that attempt to improve on the designs with proprietary parts.

 

Joule and FPS limits vary all over the world.

Different nations have different views on what power output defines a fire arm as well as what defines safe play for airsoft specifically.

Naturally, the FPS and Joule limits of Japan would set the baseline for airsoft game play standards.

Japan enforces a strict limit of .98 Joules (325fps).

Many countries around the world enforce a limit of 1 Joule (330fps).

 

In the USA, it is fair to say that Joule and FPS limits have been fairly relaxed compared to other countries.

Some States and Field Owners enforce strict power output rules, others do not.

Insurance companies are more often the reason FPS limits have been reduced at major fields and major event style games across the USA over the last couple of years.

This trend continues to grow.

 

From the technical side of building airsoft guns for long range, we in the USA have had the luxury of learning all the positives and negatives that high FPS can produce.

Though the USA has some of the best and most innovative and accomplished Airsoft Techs in the world, other nations often consider their own Airsoft Techs to be more skilled and capable, for having achieved great results with less power output from their guns. Personally, I have great respect for all the Airsoft Techs around the world and learn from them all, as most do as well.

 

As someone who has spent the last two years invested in DMR projects and learning all one can about shooting long range, and accuracy at long range, in airsoft, I have never built an airsoft gun for long range specifically with less than 400fps. Given the great technical and performance achievements of Airsoft Techs that have the restrictions placed on them of 1 Joule or less power output, my interest is peaked in seeing what we Americans can do under the same restrictions.

 

So, I challenge the airsoft community in the United States to focus your attention over the next 12-24 months to build airsoft guns that can not only meet, but beat the longest distances shot, and the highest accuracy rates recorded, with the restriction of using no more than 1 Joule power output.
I challenge you further to adhere to the standard set by Japan of .98 Joule.

 

This is an official discussion Thread on this topic.

It is not a Gun Build Thread, so save those great ideas you have for an official 1 Joule and Under Gun Build Thread.

Edited by vanevery

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I would be interested if there were more events with equipment rules/restrictions encouraging these builds where there would be benefit over running "normal" guns kind of like in the case for SAWs and DMRs.

 

An example would be if there was no MED for weapons shooting softer than 330 fps with a 0.2 such as in the case of pistols/shotguns. In this case, a well tuned AEG shooting within those limits would be great for cqb/indoor stuff but still hang at distance in an AO with plenty of buildings and such.

 

The cost could be lower than say picking up a gas SMG and a set of mags for close encounters like I have seen players do at events with similar rules not to mention potentially more bbs in general with AEG mags vs gas mags where you'd also have to refill them with gas.

 

In some areas I think more and more fields are starting to chrono pistols and revise their rules to reflect all the tuning that is available and potential cheating that goes on regarding hot weapons so I think this could be a thing in the US.

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I know what the barrel is and what it does.

I am not seeing how it solves anything.

It also does not have stellar reviews across the airsoft world.

 

This barrel design has been out for years.

If it was a magic answer to long distance or anything else, time would have proven its worth.

It really has not.

 

I have never used this barrel design.

I have my doubts, however, that it could provide any better performance that a standard smooth bore Inner Barrel.

If anything, my money is on the fact that it cannot.

Edited by vanevery

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I have used them and the performance is not day and night measurable say over another "good" barrel.

 

It does exhibit large bore characteristics which is what the channels are replicating. Inner bore is really about 6.04mm. So this that get this or any barrel with bore "over" 6.05mm and it has the same performance characteristics.

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I have used it, which is why I suggested it and at the right joule amount it does work, very well even with a standard nub. if you research the forum on tk barrels you will find plenty of people shooting 250-300fps with incredible accuracy and range.

 

also, why the hell would someone want to build a 1 joule gun? we don't have those restrictions, japan does which is why this barrel was created. If you don't understand how it works, research it. Or I can just give you some insight....japan believed that .08 was the ideal space between bb and barrel hence why bbs are 6mm and barrels, such as tk, is 6.08. the problem now is bbs are 5.95mm which suits 6.03 barrels best. why do you need that space? wellll, the more the bb bounces around in the barrel the less accurate and distance it will achieve, so you want a nice air cushion to float the bb through the barrel. HENCE the "rifling" in the tk twist barrel which does just that. except it only works with 1 joule guns, anything over and too much air is pushed through breaking that nice cushion that we all are trying to achieve. so basically, if you're running a 1 joule gun, just throw in a tk twist and find the right bb.

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also, why the hell would someone want to build a 1 joule gun? we don't have those restrictions, japan does which is why this barrel was created.

A gun that shoots only 1 joule is more versatile. You can take it to a CQB arena but still be able to reach out and touch people in a field game without the MED restrictions that higher FPS rifles have. Plus, if you ever go to Japan to play airsoft you can take your 1 joule rifle with you and use it.

 

Here's another idea for a barrel - Miracle Barrel.

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While some cqb places require fps below 350, the ones in norcal cqb city and gamepod allow 400 fps. But again, why would you need range in a cqb environment? And if you take it to a field that allows 400 fps you're going to want to get as close to this as possible. Sure fps doesn't necessarily contribute to range but travel time is significantly reduced. I took a 300 fps gun out to the field and my gosh....smh. So again, unless it's recquired by US law to have guns under 1 joule there is no point.

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I have used it, which is why I suggested it and at the right joule amount it does work, very well even with a standard nub. if you research the forum on tk barrels you will find plenty of people shooting 250-300fps with incredible accuracy and range.

 

also, why the hell would someone want to build a 1 joule gun? we don't have those restrictions, japan does which is why this barrel was created. If you don't understand how it works, research it. Or I can just give you some insight....japan believed that .08 was the ideal space between bb and barrel hence why bbs are 6mm and barrels, such as tk, is 6.08. the problem now is bbs are 5.95mm which suits 6.03 barrels best. why do you need that space? wellll, the more the bb bounces around in the barrel the less accurate and distance it will achieve, so you want a nice air cushion to float the bb through the barrel. HENCE the "rifling" in the tk twist barrel which does just that. except it only works with 1 joule guns, anything over and too much air is pushed through breaking that nice cushion that we all are trying to achieve. so basically, if you're running a 1 joule gun, just throw in a tk twist and find the right bb.

 

 

I am educated in the science and mechanics of how airsoft guns work.

I am educated in the science and mechanics of the Hop-up Unit, Inner Barrel, Buckngs, Nubs, and Hop-up modifications as well as barrel modifications. I have spent years building, working on, and testing airsoft guns with a focus on long range specifically.

I am currently knowledgeable on the latest and most up to date info regarding airsoft gun modifications and parts that benefit performance.

 

Why build a gun for 1 Joule?

- Technical Challenge:

The technical challenge of achieving on par performance for long range and accuracy with low power output.

Most would argue that it is much more difficult to achieve long range shots and accuracy at long range with a limit of 1 joule power output vs a long range gun built at 400 fps and up.

I use 400fps as a baseline number for that seems to be the beginning point most people use for long range gun builds here in the USA, including myself.

 

- Safety:

Been to an aisoft game lately?

When I first got into airsoft, bb's stung a little bit when you got hit but no big deal.

Now, the average infantrymen is shooting hot weapons(above field limit fps) with heavy ammo.

It feels like rocks hitting me now when I get shot in less than 100'.

Sniper/DMR guys seem to be the only ones who really abide by rules of power output and MED's.

 

I appreciate the fact that you are offering advice and contributing to this thread the knowledge you have based on your experience with the TK Twist Barrel. You are, however, presenting your thoughts and advice as if it is case closed, nowhere else to go for the TK Twist Barrel will attain all the shooting performance that can be achieved at 1 Joule.

This, I can assure you, is not the case.

Not with the TK Twist being the best barrel option for 1 Joule, nor with a performance ceiling reached for distance and accuracy at distance.

 

jonsun81, on 25 Aug 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

While some cqb places require fps below 350, the ones in norcal cqb city and gamepod allow 400 fps. But again, why would you need range in a cqb environment? And if you take it to a field that allows 400 fps you're going to want to get as close to this as possible. Sure fps doesn't necessarily contribute to range but travel time is significantly reduced. I took a 300 fps gun out to the field and my gosh....smh. So again, unless it's recquired by US law to have guns under 1 joule there is no point.

 

 

400fps is way too high for cqb.

CQB often literally gets within arms length of OpFor.

Most all of us have been hit in the head at that close proximity.

Just not safe and not smart.

Edited by vanevery

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seriously? 400 fps is too hot for cqb? I started with cqb and from the beginning its always been 400fps with a 20 ft engagement distance. Been shot all over and I guess I'm used to it?

 

back on topic, I'm just trying to figure out why you would want people to create a 1 joule gun that won't achieve the same results as a perfectly legal 400fps gun. I guess what I'm trying to ask is what's the point? This isn't japan were there is a 1 joule ban and guys have tried this, ME. 350fps back when I started got you into buildings without having to transition to pistol so I set out to build a 300-350fps indoor and outdoor gun. My findings? tk twist was the cheapest and most effective way to increase range at that joule output. HOWEVER, for outdoor games it was less than satisfactory. I found my bbs slow upon approach and too easily manipulated by the wind and branches. Also, the inability to push heavier bbs was just disheartening. And given that you and I are the only ones active on this thread I think my point has been proven.

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seriously? 400 fps is too hot for cqb? I started with cqb and from the beginning its always been 400fps with a 20 ft engagement distance. Been shot all over and I guess I'm used to it?

Your field's rules are not all fields' rules. I know of many CQB fields that will not allow a 400 fps gun.

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I understand that, but again you're missing the point. very seldomly in a cqb environment will you need MAX range. not to mention the downside of using a 1 joule gun outdoors. I've tried both and I doubt you use a 1 joule gun for outdoor play so I don't know what you're input is. I've contributed all I can to this post, as it seems others have too so at this point there is none. peace...

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I understand that, but again you're missing the point. very seldomly in a cqb environment will you need MAX range. not to mention the downside of using a 1 joule gun outdoors. I've tried both and I doubt you use a 1 joule gun for outdoor play so I don't know what you're input is. I've contributed all I can to this post, as it seems others have too so at this point there is none. peace...

I believe Vanevery's intention in using said sub 1J guns in long range is for competition purposes in controlled environments only. The current standard in Japan is to hold comps at 30m, usually at an indoor basketball court shot diagonally. In actual field play you might get bbs to reach far with the same gun, but the obvious lack in power will cause it to fail miserably with wind to contend against plus the likelihood that opposing players will not even register the bbs hitting them.

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I believe Vanevery's intention in using said sub 1J guns in long range is for competition purposes in controlled environments only. The current standard in Japan is to hold comps at 30m, usually at an indoor basketball court shot diagonally. In actual field play you might get bbs to reach far with the same gun, but the obvious lack in power will cause it to fail miserably with wind to contend against plus the likelihood that opposing players will not even register the bbs hitting them.

This is not for competition purposes specifically.

I do advocate such a competition, but there are none like this that I know of.

 

What I really want is for those that tech there guns for high speed, mid range, or long range, to get into the mindset of seeing what is achievable in a 1 joule power limit gun.

From a technical standpoint, I think is is a real challenge, not fully researched among airsoft techs, and I believe that the max long distance and max accuracy at long distance has not been achieved at this power level.

 

Yes, I do have max effective range possible and max distance possible as the ultimate goal.

Yes, I do want to establish verified record of what is achieved so that all techs will have a baseline to compare against in their own gun builds.

No, a 30m challenge means nothing and is not on the radar.

I know a 1 joule airsoft gun is capable of much more than that.

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The 30m quote is from Japanese standards. It used to be easier to find recorded matches on YouTube but not right now it seems. Anyway, the 30m figure I suppose is a limitation on common indoor venues which they can rent out. Even international standards for precision air rifle ranges are only set at 25m (pistol at 10) even if they can go for much farther. The problem lies in the venues available. Too few and not as many people can participate at events which is the only way to get records sanctioned. It's simply too easy for some upstart to make bold claims and make a "live" recording and put it on YouTube. But as far as their 30m ranges are concerned I remember the best one doing under an inch in grouping.

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Been working all weekend on this.

It will not take long before I have at least two up and running.

Mainly doing the prep work right now and documenting my work.

I intend to do a gun build thread for this.

Not sure if I will fully document every single gun I build for this, but will at least one-two of them.

Intend to get all shooting performance on video.

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Edited by vanevery

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Received my Main Springs this week and O-rings for this and other projects.

I placed a larger order with Clandestine Airsoft and decided to go ahead and purchase my springs there for the Main Springs.

I ordered the O-rings from McMaster.com

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Main Springs:

SHS m90

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Core SP90:

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ZCI m100:

This one did not arrive in a package like the rest.

I did order the ZCI m100, and can only presume this is in fact that spring.

f4dQWqK.jpg



O-rings.

Viton:

Standard size Piston Head O-ring: McMaster.com 9464K29

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Bore-up Piston Head O-ring: McMaster.com 9464K81

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Will do a build thread on this project specifically.

So, I will be updating there once all the guns are built and put together.

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Been working hard at getting my initial three guns ready over the last week.

Just have a few things left to do before all three are ready for assembly.

Once the first three guns are assembled, all my attention will focus on barrel work.

Will have several different barrel set-ups for these guns.


I can also go ahead with initial field testing once the guns are assembled.

The plan is to use a standard drop-in bucking set-up at first with each gun in order to establish a baseline of performance, and to help me identify a ball park estimate of optimal bb weight.

While this is going on, I will focus on the barrel work for this, and other projects.


Just a few things here.

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This is really going to be a lot of fun.

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Update:

I finished the first gun in rotation last weekend.

When I began the initial stages of assembly on my guns for this project, I realized something.

I did not have the most baseline approach gun represented.

Every gun I was putting together had Full Cylinders, after-marker Piston Heads, and so on.

So, I decided to put together a gun that was pretty much all stock except for some DIY mods and an after-market O-ring.

Something that would represent a TM base gun, in my case a TM compatible China Clone JG.

A gun that would represent something off the shelf, and that would relate to what many people had.


So I used an all stock JG M4 base Gearbox, enhanced version.

Everything is all stock.

DIY Mods include:

- Added Sorbo.

- Cylinder Head / Cylinder Sealant Mod.

- Basic shim job.

- Enlarging the Piston Head ports.


After-market parts include:

- Viton O-ring.

- SHS m90 Spring yielding 293fps (Hop-up Unit turned all the way off).

I am sure will drop to at least the TM standard of 288fps when the Hop-up is set for level fight.


Basic Approach:

The basic plan is start out with a stock Hop-up Unit and barrel, and then experiment with barrel lengths to find the right one for each specific gun.

This is with an old, beat up Hop-up Unit and lightly used JG Blue Bucking in order to make use of these parts.

No Hop-up mods at all.

Also will use this time to get a read on the best ammo weight for the gun.

Then, will progress to Hop-up mods.


Notes:

- I need to open this gun again and re-shim it.

I did not shim using the Bevel/Pinion Gear method, which I typically do on my upgrade builds.

This build has such low levels of stress, I am not immediately seeing the need for every possible approach to a full tune-up.

I think the height of the Gears are ok, just too many shims on the top of the Bevel Gear to reduce "play".


-The FPS varies wildly.

I am getting a +/- 10fps deviation.

The Air Nozzle does not seem to sit right on the Tappet Plate.

It tends to want to raise up and lift off its seating position.

I will address this.


- I may switch the Piston out.

The current Piston is the JG Orange Piston form the enhanced version.

There is nothing wrong with it, I just might save it for a different gun and use one of the JG Creme Pistons.


- The Cylinder, Cylinder Head, added Sorbo, and Sealant Mod was done years ago in this specific assembly.

It is all perfectly good and usable, so I am just dropping this in.


Random Pictures:

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