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yayapfool

Attempting the Miracle Barrel mod?

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Yes, I know the Miracle Barrel is not a mod itself- it's a barrel for sale which boasts a very simple modification to the standard barrel design- where the BB sits in a consistent position pre-trigger-pull. Is the Miracle Barrel better than other options out there because of this? :censored2: if I know, I just know this is a design any barrel would benefit from, and it isn't complicated, so I want to apply it.

 

I'm wondering if anyone here has attempted to modify their barrel to recreate this design, or seriously considered it?

 

The only thing stopping me from committing 100% to this is...well, life- I'm on break, and last time I left for school, Airsoft got sidetracked a depressing amount :rip_1:

 

Depending on the coming weeks, I may take this project up wholeheartedly, and am seriously interested in it regardless.

 

My first thought was drilling four holes on the underside of the barrel appropriately, to anchor some 'tracks' used for the actual support of the BB. This may be as simple as four holes, and some copper wire strung through like shoelaces, held secure by (and plugging the holes via) Loctite.

 

Any input?

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The Miracle barrel is a stupid gimmick that promises so much yet offers so little. Bore quality and consistency is much more important to accuracy.

 

Figured that's the case, but didn't want to say too much to that effect, because I only just learned about them.

 

Regardless, it's a beneficial design; I would expect a barrel of company 'X' with this mod to perform more consistently than a normal barrel from company 'X'- wouldn't you think? Many people and videos claim it is an improvement.

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I have a Miracle barrel in my AEG.

 

I use them NOT because of the centering feature. Rather I use them because it is what I consider an intermediate bore and I find that better for my needs and bb type over a tight bore. In addition they have nice big hop-up windows and work well with Maple Leaf Packings.

 

Finish on the inside is rather decent with bore extrusion marks being limited over another brand of brass barrels. Is the price worth it for what I cited above? No, not really. But I am shooting well with my 22 month old "test" barrel and there is no reason for me to change it.

 

Now if you are trying to Make your on MB. Don't even bother with it unless you have a FULL machine shop at your disposal.

Edited by Guges Mk3

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Wouldn't using a bb centering bucking achieve the same effect?

 

As a perfectionist, no- but basically yes.

But I'm not in this for 'basically' ;) half the fun I get from Airsoft is all the tinkering, working towards the best possible accuracy.

 

Prometheus Delta.

 

Well. Would you look at that? Not sure how I feel about the two-piece design though. It's something I may be able to trust feeling it in person, but it's an easy thing to screw up...

 

I have a Miracle barrel in my AEG.

 

I use them NOT because of the centering feature. Rather I use them because it is what I consider an intermediate bore and I find that better for my needs and bb type over a tight bore. In addition they have nice big hop-up windows and work well with Maple Leaf Packings.

 

Finish on the inside is rather decent with bore extrusion marks being limited over another brand of brass barrels. Is the price worth it for what I cited above? No, not really. But I am shooting well with my 22 month old "test" barrel and there is no reason for me to change it.

 

Now if you are trying to Make your on MB. Don't even bother with it unless you have a FULL machine shop at your disposal.

 

I don't think it would be that difficult- that being said, I do think it would be difficult enough that I would probably not try it on my only good barrel...haha.

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An identical setup would be insane, yes; but achieving the desired effect would not be as crazy. Like I said, something as simple as four holes would be a majority of the work. On second thought, copper wire would not be wise, but with a bit of thought, there's surely some material that would work well- then Loctite or Shoegoo to seal the holes and hold your "rails" in place. I think it's doable- I may try on an old barrel I have no use for, just to see [visually] if the product would be a good idea.

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This needs to be precision work. I don't think any jerry-rigging will get you the desired results. A fraction of an mm too less and it does nothing, a fraction of an mm too much and you deform the bbs. Remember the tiniest scratch on the bbs can have dramatic effects on its aerodynamics as it's spinning through the air.

Edited by CaptCalvin

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Loctite or shoegoo would not hold anything in place for long, you would have to at least epoxy it, just make sure nothing gets in the barrel.

 

I'm just now realizing I'm unsure what I mean by Loctite- I think my epoxy is made by Loctite...anyway I meant to include epoxy, and you're probably right about Shoegoo.

 

This needs to be precision work. I don't think any jerry-rigging will get you the desired results.a fraction of an mm too less and it does nothing, a fraction of an mm and you deform the bbs. Remember the tiniest scratch on the bbs can have dramatic effects on its aerodynamics as it's spinning through the air.

 

You're absolutely right. And it may prove to be unrealistic. I won't be trying it on my main barrel unless I for some reason choose to buy a new one.

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And not all epoxy is the same...you would want a metalized epoxy...of which you just can't easily go out and buy.

 

Like not all glue is the same...

 

Really, I see no point in this attempt when you just buy the packing shown above for far less trouble. As mentioned, it is precision work...not home hack job capable...

 

To quote Bing Crosby....

 

"...it is beginning to sound like Christmas..."

Edited by Guges Mk3

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Or, you know, just get something like this.

astd-hop-aeg-70_2_mark.jpg

 

That's on the top of the BB, not the bottom. There is a BB sitting supported evenly (Miracle Barrel), and a BB contacting a ^ shaped bucking- and those two things are not the same at all.

 

And not all epoxy is the same...you ould want a metalized epoxy...of which you just can't easily go out and buy.

 

Like not all glue is the same...

 

Really, I see no point in this attempt when you just buy the packing shown above for far less trouble. As mentioned, it is precision work...not home hack job capable...

 

To quote Bing Crosby....

 

"...it is beginning to sound like Christmas..."

 

My generality was meant to convey possibility, not that any old option would work. Though you seem to be claiming the right option wouldn't be easy to obtain? I'm inclined to believe SOMEthing at the hardware store would fit the needs for this, but I could be wrong.

 

As stated, BB initial placement effects != nub shape effects.

Edited by yayapfool

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If you have the skills and "tools" of a 17th century Bavarian Clockmaker, sure why not go nuts and make your own MB.

 

If not...there are other things that you can do to your barrel to make a huge difference in range and accuracy.

 

Lol, maybe I'm trying too hard just to mod something because I've nearly run out parts of my gun to mod :rolleyes: what are you referring to then?

 

<AT>CPT *pssst* there is no difference that is noticeable, at least nothing that has been found in any miracle barrel tests

 

I'd believe it. Can you point me somewhere with the evidence? I've searched around for various accuracy-related topics, and my findings have been pretty disappointing- so many people are so non-scientific (watched a comparison vide of a Miracle Barrel to a tight bore- no two aspects of the barrels were the same (except maybe bore, which went unlisted), how is that an effective evaluation of the design you're claiming does something??).

 

I don't get it. Isn't the whole purpose of the "miracle" barrel as well as the ^ shape bucking to hold the bb in the chamber centered? What difference does it make whether or not the bb's held to the center by the bottom or the top?

 

I'm being a perfectionist- there isn't a massive difference. But one exists. The Miracle Barrel gives the BB the same initial position every time, by design- it essentially can't start anywhere else, it would never happen unless the rifle is sideways. Bucking on the other hand, is a little more complicated. I believe most chambers don't place the BB such that it's directly under the nub- which is what would result in the same effect as the Miracle Barrel. But as I type this I'm realizing that my bucking (Maple Leaf) is designed such that it may be resulting in the same effect as the MB because of the elongated contact patch...hm, pretty much thinking out loud here.

The simple explanation is that a bucking is not supposed to center the BB in the barrel, that's not it's job- so it's reasonable to implement a system which is designed to consistently initialize a BB. They're separate things, and I believe it's the best idea to implement the design into the barrel. If PDI [is still the best barrel name and] adopted the same design as the MB, I'd buy it immediately (unless I'm given conclusive proof the design doesn't actually do anything).

Edited by yayapfool

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No...just the barrel to allow a packing with a larger contact patch.

 

This will all you to use Maple Leal/A+ Packing to flat hop or r-hop the barrel.

 

Ohh, I did that yesterday it turns out, haha.

The difference is massive, I barely need any pressure on the hop up unit to reach the same hop.

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Before adjustable hop became a thing the bucking's main job is to hold the BB in the chamber. That's its most fundamental function before anything else. What do you think keeps the bb from rolling out the end of the barrel or come out the chamber when you open the slide/bolt on a GBB? So increasing the bbs point of contact in the barrel from 2(1 barrel and 1 bucking) to 3(1 barrel and 2 bucking) centers the bb perfectly fine. If you have a competent hop unit it will "give the bb same initial position every time."

Edited by CaptCalvin

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The simple explanation is that a bucking is not supposed to center the BB in the barrel, that's not it's job- so it's reasonable to implement a system which is designed to consistently initialize a BB.

Oh, so you mean like this? A geometrically shaped hop mound that forces the bb to take the same consistent path for taking up a spin?

astd-hop-aeg-70_2_mark.jpg

If you have a standard hop rubber then something like the MB or Print Delta is the only way to ensure that. Good thing it's not 2012 anymore because they've since invented commercially available shaped hop chambers which do the exact same thing: center the bb for precise and repeatable backspin.

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Oh, so you mean like this? A geometrically shaped hop mound that forces the bb to take the same consistent path for taking up a spin?

astd-hop-aeg-70_2_mark.jpg

If you have a standard hop rubber then something like the MB or Print Delta is the only way to ensure that. Good thing it's not 2012 anymore because they've since invented commercially available shaped hop chambers which do the exact same thing: center the bb for precise and repeatable backspin.

 

No. A BB starting in position 'A' and a BB starting in position 'B' would not do the same thing upon being propelled into that shape. You are assuming they start up against the shape.

On that note, the second part is more relevant. Depending on the gun (stock), or depending on any number of applicable modifications/upgrades/alternate parts, the bucking rubber may or may not hold the BB in a consistent starting position.

I just checked with my Tanaka, and due to a G&G bolt mod, the BB is pushed directly up against the rubber nub, meaning I wouldn't gain much from a MB-type mod (though again, I'd still buy it from PDI, what'do you take me for, a casual? ;) ). But pre-G&G mod, the bolt nozzle would not have pushed the BB as far- meaning I would have benefited from a barrel shaped to initialize BB position consistently- and in fact, I benefited from my old bucking's method of doing just that, as the rubber had a tighter region which held the BB before being projected.

Oddly enough this means my un-modded bolt nozzle allowed for more consistent initial BB placement when no hop was engaged- obviously that's not super helpful, and the G&G mod resulted in more consistent shots when using hop up.

 

The fact of the matter is that a bucking like the one you suggested does not inherently result in the consistent initial placement of BB's. Though I do change my mind on what part I think should be responsible for initial BB placement- I can't decide if it would make more sense for the rubber or for the barrel, but I'm leaning towards rubber at this point.

 

Before adjustable hop became a thing the bucking's main job is to hold the BB in the chamber. That's its most fundamental function before anything else. What do you think keeps the bb from rolling out the end of the barrel or come out the chamber when you open the slide/bolt on a GBB? So increasing the bbs point of contact in the barrel from 2(1 barrel and 1 bucking) to 3(1 barrel and 2 bucking) centers the bb perfectly fine. If you have a competent hop unit it will "give the bb same initial position every time."

 

Refer to the text above. But also many buckings do not stop the BB from rolling out one way or another. I'd hazard a guess that most rubbers DO keep the BB from rolling backwards out the chamber, but when no hop is engaged, many allow the BB to roll out the front.

Edited by yayapfool

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You are assuming they start up against the shape.

I am assuming exactly that. The above is an A+ and like its VSR/GBB counterpart sports an extended contact surface which you probably couldn't tell due to the angle of the picture. It requires an open window for the VSR type and a lengthened or equally open window for AEGs. Bbs start already guided by the notch making any method of alignment by the barrel as redundant.

 

Edit: here's a better angle for the VSR type

10073_1.jpg

Edited by renegadecow

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I am assuming exactly that. The above is an A+ and like its VSR/GBB counterpart sports an extended contact surface which you probably couldn't tell due to the angle of the picture. It requires an open window for the VSR type and a lengthened or equally open window for AEGs. Bbs start already guided by the notch making any method of alignment by the barrel as redundant.

 

Edit: here's a better angle for the VSR type

10073_1.jpg

 

In many cases, that's true (probably most). I may be grasping too much for an end-all be-all setup which works across nearly all builds/contexts. In reality, in an upgraded gun like mine, using hop-up like I do, no other mod is necessary, you're right.

 

Again, being a perfectionist- but even my perfectionist attitude can let slide the notion that I need perfect BB placement even when hop isn't engaged, haha.

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Tanaka M40A1, KA chamber conversion, EdGI 6.03, Maple Leaf 70, every G&G mod for the magazine and bolt, custom MUCH tighter fit flat nub, other assorted mods, any BB worth note (as of a few years ago that is, not sure if anything newer competes- for example, I own: Maruzen SGM .29, Bioval .4, Goldenball .3, BBBastard Nites, BBBastard Pearls).

Unfortunately I don't have easy access to somewhere with the ranges I need. But just you asking has got me too curious- I'm going to test the longest distance I can tomorrow after I complete another mod, then reply again.

 

In the meantime, could you suggest BB/grouping combinations that are considered 'good' or 'abnormally good'? I've always been curious how my setup stacks up to others'.

Also what BB would you recommend I use for the test tomorrow; Bioval .4, Goldenball .3, BBB .3, SGM .29, BBB Sil .28, BBB Eco .28, BBB .28 ? I'm thinking BBB Silica .28 just because they're the lightest, and I can see there are no bubbles inside them- should be a safe, consistent choice? Though maybe .28 would be hard to compare to more common weights/groupings?

 

EDIT:

 

On second thought I could use any weight BBB, just didn't think to list below .28 because I would never realistically use them in my sniper rifle.

Edited by yayapfool

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If you're after long range use the heaviest bb you could afford. No point testing bbs which you won't normally be using on it. For grouping, it also depends on the power level of the gun to begin with. While higher fps/energy doesn't necessarily mean longer range, it does allow the bb to have more energy to punch through air and be less affected by crosswind. Personally I only measure 20/40/60m with guns doing under 430fps (my field's limit) with 60m shooting the size of an A4 sheet of paper or more or less torso size. While it's certainly possible to shoot further with that setup, wind and shooter error becomes more apparent.

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If you're after long range use the heaviest bb you could afford. No point testing bbs which you won't normally be using on it. For grouping, it also depends on the power level of the gun to begin with. While higher fps/energy doesn't necessarily mean longer range, it does allow the bb to have more energy to punch through air and be less affected by crosswind. Personally I only measure 20/40/60m with guns doing under 430fps (my field's limit) with 60m shooting the size of an A4 sheet of paper or more or less torso size. While it's certainly possible to shoot further with that setup, wind and shooter error becomes more apparent.

 

Ah, very true about power- and to complicate that matter more, I believe due to gas expansion, using heavier BB's increases joules(?).

 

Well the mod took longer than I thought, but I finished and tried to take some shots- but honestly there's no point, at this range, I can't even see the BB's to tell where hop up is at etc.

I'll have to try groupings given a better opportunity.

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I for one am glad someone is willing to give a more thorough thought into this mod. It does indeed work. People are dissing miracle barrels and delta strike but gliding over the fact that the barrel itself is of insufficient quality, the track of poor design, and the affixment of unsound practice.

 

I have done this mod and mine was made out of harden steel and EDM wirecut. The BB is supported by two minutely raised tangential arcs in the track. The surface area in contact with the bb is very very minimal. The reason is if you have a track that is instead V-shape, the surface area is slightly larger and friction is increased on the microscopic level. This microscopic friction is what is happening in a standard barrel. The bb does not slide above the concave floor in a truly straight line. Microscopic interactions between the bb surface and barrel floor will cause the bb to produce a less than perfect backpsin. On a heavier bb, this phenomenon is more apparent as the bb compresses under the hop pressure albeit very slightly something like 10-20microns which takes up a larger surface area on the floor. As more shots go through, the bb will lay flakes under the patch and this would also somewhat affect groups consistency. 0.43 are the worst offenders for shitting in the barrel.

 

Even with a "self-centering" bucking in a conventional barrel, one can easily observe the bb does not sit at the bottom dead center every single time.

 

If you are attempting this mod, arguably the best machine to do this is with EDM wirecut. Also, no glue however strong can bond the track to the barrel effectively and accurately. Over time, bb pressure acting on the track and vibrations in the system will dislodge the track out of alignment. In my case, I had a custom made chamber with 2 grub screws at the bottom to lock the track in its place. The 2 grub screws also served as adjusters to align the track in perfect center.

 

Anyways, its not a cheap mod and definitely not DIY friendly but well worth the effort and money for the player who seek to squeeze every bit of performance out of their rifle.

 

Pictures here:

http://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/32-general-sniper-talk/15522-does-beloved-r-hop-have-floss-there-room-improvement.html#post152351

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