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Karrottop009

Deepfire Silver Series- My Slow Build

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Hello all, first post on the forums. In November of 2014, I began my first slow AEG build starting with a Deepfire Silver Series M4A1 with the full stock (big batteries ftw). I originally ordered the base gun, an 11.1V 20C 2650 mAh lipo and the Guarder high speed motor. The gun came with steel gear set, metal coated first piston tooth, and metal spring guide like many other starter guns, but it actually uses poly gear bushings. When I tried the battery on the base gun, the piston teeth after the metal tooth were shredded. I then installed a Deepfire full metal teeth piston, poly sector ship, the Guarder motor, and an Extreme Fire MOSFET for continuous 50A bursts. During the process, I learned that applying epoxy to seal the nozzle to cylinder head seam was a bad idea. My actuating nozzle was being prevented from fully retracting, so bb's couldn't load till I removed the epoxy. After approximately 3-4000 rounds, or 10-15 mags, the piston, sector gear, sector chip, bevel gear, and motor are doing great at around 330 fps and 22-25 rps (no chrono yet). I did however shear the spur gear's shaft, which led to the gear jamming and shredding its teeth. I ordered a shim kit and a Matrix 16:1 gear set which I believe should be good combo with this motor. I figured 13:1 might burn out the motor.

 

I have a feeling the next thing to fail will be either the motor or the plastic tappet plate. So who has suggestions on replacements for those?

 

Here's some video links:

 

Lipo on stock gun:

 

 

Review of installed parts just before sheared spur gear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MT4MsZgcBg

 

Start at 11:00 if you just want firing footage. My little brother shoots me in the back at the end lol. It's a rule our group follows when you buy a new gun, you get shot first. I broke my semi lock lever spring, so I ate a burst of 8.

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The Guarder motors are pretty good. and with a 330fps gun, you wont be burning it out any time soon, even with 16:1 gears.

 

All tappet plates are plastic and most are pretty robust. They rarely break from normal usage and usually fail due to a bb jam or something of that nature. If it does break, almost any brand out there that make a V2 tappet will work.

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Well, we'll see how things play out. I never thought I'd shear the spur gear shaft. Luckily the pinion gear survived that ordeal.

 

When I receive the new gears and go to set the motor height to begin shimming, I suppose I'll go about the method of drilling a sight hole in the gearbox rather than listening for gear whine/slip.

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Another thing I'd like to improve is the accuracy and range. I'd like to keep the stock spring since the only local field in Missouri is indoor with a 350 fps limit. So I'm thinking about trying a new hop-up and inner barrel combo.

 

Here is a a detailed breakdown of the gun by Booligan Airsoft: http://www.booliganairsoft.com/2012/12/deep-fire-silver-series-m16-aeg.html

 

I found that the stock inner barrel is a 6.04mm x 363mm

 

 

 

Full G&P kit: http://www.evike.com/products/32054/

 

Prometheus NEO Strike : http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/Prometheus-Perfect-Metal-Chamber-NEO-M4-Hopup-p/58047.htm

 

Madbull kit: http://www.evike.com/products/32281/

 

The Prometheus makes the G&P look like pot metal, but I'm not sure if I can swap my Deepfire wheels into the Prometheus. I can't tell if the Madbull comes with a barrel, assume not.

 

 

Or am I approaching this wrong? Is the mechanism just fine, so I should just get a new bucking, spacer and possibly a barrel?

 

Prometheus soft bucking: http://www.evike.com/products/31081/

 

Angel H-spacer: http://www.evike.com/products/38456/

 

Prometheus inner barrel: http://www.evike.com/products/24385/

Edited by Karrottop009

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No need to swap out your chamber. Unless it is damaged, changing the chamber wont give you an increase in range or accuracy. Instead, make sure you are using a consistent bore, and upgrade your hop up packing/bucking.

 

Guges suggested the Maple leaf, however the R-hop is also good.

 

Also, use heavier bbs. .20g are very light. .25g, .28g. and .30g would all give better range and accuracy, so long as the consistency of the bb is good. Heavier rounds will have more momentum so they aren't slowed down by air resistance or pushed off course by wind as easily.

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I use .28's in my guns that are rated at 420 fps with .2g, so those shoot straight as an arrow. I'm not sure the Deepfire stock spring is strong enough to lob the .28's considering how rapid the .2g are dropping currently.

 

The gears, shims, and hop up parts are all in shipment at the moment. The next time I'll be able to work on the gun is after I graduate, so I should have the gun together around May 22, with a video posted on the results soon after. How would y'all prefer these results? I can do the gears and hop-up at once, or perform an accuracy test with just the gears at first. Then install the hop up and show the difference with a control target shoot to refer by? Each test with .2's then .28's.

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Your gun can shoot far heavier bbs than you think. The winner of Japan's 30m (98ft) several years ago was shooting .36g bbs. Keep in mind that they are limited to 1J so his gun was shooting no harder than 328fps with .20g bbs. If you install the Maple Leaf bucking or R-hop, you will be able to shoot .30g just fine. They will be slow, but you will get the range and accuracy.

 

Frankly, you should be getting 120-150ft of reasonably accurate range right now, so I think something is up with your hop up. Perhaps wash it in warm soapy water to remove grease and oil from the contact surface. Grease and oil on the bucking is your enemy as it reduces friction. Friction is what applies the spin to the bb.

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I'll have a video uploaded when I get the chance, but I ended up installing everything at once in interest of time. The gun is fully functional, but the new hopup bucking and nub didn't really improve my range nor my accuracy. I tried comparing .2g to .28g. Sure enough, 50% increase in weight led to half the range.

 

In summary, I built a gun that makes a lot of noise but isn't effective in outdoor play. It will be effective at any CQB field that allows full auto.

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Whelp, I also failed to shim the gear set based on bevel engagement. The gear set survived but the motor is absolutely shot. I guess sometime in the future I'll have the funds to buy a cheap grip to cut up in order to shim to whatever motor I choose next rather than shimming the gears and adjusting the motor.

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Guest alberty

Whelp, I also failed to shim the gear set based on bevel engagement. The gear set survived but the motor is absolutely shot. I guess sometime in the future I'll have the funds to buy a cheap grip to cut up in order to shim to whatever motor I choose next rather than shimming the gears and adjusting the motor.

 

I don't think you necessarily need a cut grip to shim decently to the bevel gear and pinion gear mesh. A lot of techs do that without a special cut-out grip if you have an M4.

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Alright, I dug back into the gun. The cylinder head barrel is the culprit of my junk range. It has sprung a decent leak. The cylinder head impact pad has been hammered loose and chewed up. The 6mm ball bearings I installed the gears with have exploded. The magnets in the Guarder motor have turned to dust, so I can't just replace the pinion. The plastic spring guide washer is chewed up pretty good.

 

So, I ordered:

 

Guarder stainless cylinder head and fresh "Sorbo" pad

 

ASG Infinity CNC U-45000 long type motor

 

Matrix 6mm metal bushings

 

Lonex aluminum shroom piston head (The full metal rack deep fire piston head I have currently doesn't have a one way valve or any seal ports for that matter.)

 

Lonex spring guide with ball bearing

 

 

The lot comes in this weekend, but I can't post videos of results until I get a place with an internet service that's free of data limits. I'll post a general summary though.

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While waiting on parts to come in, I decided to solve my problem of wires being rubbed raw by the motor (It's a V2 gearbox). What I ended up doing, is keeping the motor ground wire running out the rear gearbox wire window. What I changed, is running the positive motor and MOSFET signal wires out the FRONT gearbox wire window. I then ran these wires along LHS of the gearbox just above the fire selector plate. For this to work, I had to file a trench into the lower receiver for the wires to pass through the gun stock window. Also, my "bolt catch" release can no longer be installed. I still have the charging bolt cover to keep debris out of the gun, so this modification was totally worth it. I can make a video of this in the future to clarify.

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Gun is back together with all the new parts. However, the MOSFET is burning out. The thermal resetting fuse is overheating even though only firing in small bursts. It has a continuous rating of 50 A but a thermal fuse of 30 A that resets slowly. I am contacting Terry from Extreme-Fire to see if he can make a custom mosfet that suits my gun's needs.

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If you are pulling 30 amps with your current setup, there is something wrong with your gun, not the MOSFET or fuse. 350fps is not strenuous at all, especially when the ASG motor has neodymium magnets.

 

I would check shimming, electrical connections, check wire for shorts/exposed wire, piston moves freely, ect.

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That's the same theory Terry had. I had originally shimmed the gun to just eliminate gear wobble, but it was still whining like it was too tight(motor height adjustment didn't solve this). I decided to remove a shim from each gear so they can wobble a little bit, but now something happened to my trigger circuit because no voltage is reaching the motor period. I'm out in Lincoln, NE for FSAE competition for the week, so I won't continue till I get back.

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So, I rewired the gun, took a mm shim off each gear, and retested the circuit. No issues, that's good.

 

I then installed an SHS hop up housing with rotary adjustment wheel with the Maple soft bucking/nub combo to combat the range problem. When the gun was apart, I checked my compression with new piston head, cylinder head, and original air nozzle. The seal was flawless as if the cylinder was hitting a wall just after cylinder window. When I attempted to fine tune the new hopup, the bb's either rolled out the barrel or jammed on either side of a crappy spray. So, all I'm getting is about 3ft diameter spread at 50 ft with .20g and half that distance with .28g bb's. With such good seal in my cylinder arrangement, all I can think to blame is the spring. But even then, the gun shot fairly straight at 50 ft when it was just out the box. Can these springs fatigue that fast?

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Haven't updated this thread in a while, but I had the gun running after fixing a defect in my upper receiver that caused my nozzle to be crooked in hop-up chamber thus binding the nozzle at high speeds. However, the gun was shooting at 330 fps and wasn't effective in outdoor play. So, I put a Systema M120 spring in it and forgot about correcting AOE. I burnt out the ASG 45000 motor and sheared the pickup tooth on the Krytac piston I installed with new spring. I replaced piston with Lonex and corrected AOE. New G&P Satan motor is on the way. I'll try to make a video of that result.

 

Here's what the final build list is looking like:

 

Stock externals

Stock gearbox shell with 2 stripped threads

Stock tappet plate

Stock inner barrel 6.03 mm x 363 mm

Stock cylinder

G&P M180 Satan motor

SHS 16:1 gears

Modify AR latch

Matrix 6mm bushings

SHS Rotary Hop-up chamber

Maple Leaf bucking and spacer

Systema M120 spring

Lonex metal spring guide with bearing

Lonex M170 piston

SHS Sector clip

Gaurder double o-ring cylinder head

Krytac piston head

Modify air nozzle

Extreme Fire SW-SF MOSFET

11.1V 20C 2600 mAh lipo

G&P M4A1 drum mag

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Jesus Christ dude just take it to an effing tech. youre running through hundreds of dollars of parts. I think it's time to swallow pride and just say "I need practice because I'm garb at this. lemme take it to a tech." jeez dude. never heard of anyone burn out a motor that fast. not trying to make you feel like crap but I'm trying to give you some constructive criticism.

 

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Actually, I did stop by local shop and went over gun with them. That's how we found out about upper receiver defect and improperly sized stock air nozzle. It would be a hell of a lot easier if these components came with material property spec sheets so I can just calculate the right parts. Instead it's always, "I hope this part isn't junk..."

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dude that's why research is needed. I do all mine and got a 30 rps build running a torque motor and standard gears.

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