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AirsoftQueen25

Do they make slight changes when replicating guns?

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Hi guys,

 

So I was wondering... when airsoft gun factories create their guns and replicate them, do they, for legal purposes, make minor little differences? I threw in the "legal purposes" because I figure that that's why they do it that way.

 

I own (latest purchased to first owned):

WE m92 green gas blowback pistol (chrome)

Crosman/Phantom p10/c11 co2 (black version that shoots 480fps)

Crosman c11 co2 (clear version)

 

I would like to own a Taurus PT99 c02 pistol. When I order me one, I was planning on polishing it to a silver mirrored gloss so it can look like this. That gun is really a beauty to look at and unfortunately that was the best picture I could find of it. I would like to have a gun like that except I don't want an actual firearm.

 

Also, the co2 mag for the pt99 looks kind of stupid in my opinion with the way it sticks out the bottom of the pistol; I like the flat end look better but ah well... it's all good.

 

Just wondering what their legal standpoint was when making replica air pistols.

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Guest alberty

Yes, sometimes changes are made for legal purposes. There's different scenarios.

 

1. Due to licensing you can't use a certain real name. Example: the "Echo 1 E90" looks just like a P90 but cannot be named an "Echo 1 P90".

 

2. Due to licensing you can't replicate the design. Example: the WE SMG-8 looks like an MP7, and the KWA ATP looks like a Glock.

 

3. Due to licensing you can't copy a model at all, so you modify it into something else. Example: the Cybergun GSG-522 series are an externally-different CYMA MP5 base, made to look like a .22 model but is still just an MP5 in terms of function and internals.

Edited by alberty

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Cybergun choses NOT to make the PT-99 as it should be. They are cheap and they just want your money and do not care about realism. If its 90% accurate...heck...that's good enough for them. They are clueless French that got into the Airsoft game late, the pretend to know everything and they driving their company into a wall.

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It really depends on the gun in question. Sometimes they are made as close to the real design as possible with changes only being made where necessary for it to actually function as an airsoft gun.

The WE M4 is a good example. The vast majority of parts can be swapped directly with real AR-15 parts with no modding required. Many others only require small mods to make work. I have fitted real steel uppers (with all their associated little bits), barrels (with mods to fit the inner barrel and hop up chamber in them) Most lower receiver components. I could have fitted a real AR lower if I felt like milling out an 80% lower at the time.

Real Sword is another good example of course.

 

But others do have to make changes. Either because they have to tin order to make the replica work, or because they just don't care.

Although some of the changes really seem to have no reason for existing. Like the GHK M4 I'm currently working on.

I'm trying to build the most realistic replica of the Colt 723 carbine. With as many real steel parts as possible. This involves using a real AR upper since noone makes the correct one for the GHK.

Come to find out, The upper is almost the perfect fit on the GHK lower. The ONLY difference, the rear take-down pin hole is off a couple mm's. The rest of the lower is perfect. All the other parts like fire selector, mag release, etc. Can be swapped over from a real AR. But that one hole, prevents you from using a real upper. Why GHK? What is the purpose behind moving that hole? There is no reason at all for it. :ranting: You got so close to perfection, and then screwed up. It's not like they didn't know. There are AR blueprints all over the internet. If WE managed to get it right. I can't believe GHK couldn't. And they don't typically seem like a company who doesn't care. So now I'm having to go through the hassle of milling out a real AR lower to match the upper. Instead of just using a forged RA-Tech and saving myself alot of headache.

 

Anyway, rant over.

Edited by Nickel Plated

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Guest alberty

It really depends on the gun in question. Sometimes they are made as close to the real design as possible with changes only being made where necessary for it to actually function as an airsoft gun.

The WE M4 is a good example. The vast majority of parts can be swapped directly with real AR-15 parts with no modding required. Many others only require small mods to make work. I have fitted real steel uppers (with all their associated little bits), barrels (with mods to fit the inner barrel and hop up chamber in them) Most lower receiver components. I could have fitted a real AR lower if I felt like milling out an 80% lower at the time.

Real Sword is another good example of course.

 

But others do have to make changes. Either because they have to tin order to make the replica work, or because they just don't care.

Although some of the changes really seem to have no reason for existing. Like the GHK M4 I'm currently working on.

I'm trying to build the most realistic replica of the Colt 723 carbine. With as many real steel parts as possible. This involves using a real AR upper since noone makes the correct one for the GHK.

Come to find out, The upper is almost the perfect fit on the GHK lower. The ONLY difference, the rear take-down pin hole is off a couple mm's. The rest of the lower is perfect. All the other parts like fire selector, mag release, etc. Can be swapped over from a real AR. But that one hole, prevents you from using a real upper. Why GHK? What is the purpose behind moving that hole? There is no reason at all for it. :ranting: You got so close to perfection, and then screwed up. It's not like they didn't know. There are AR blueprints all over the internet. If WE managed to get it right. I can't believe GHK couldn't. And they don't typically seem like a company who doesn't care. So now I'm having to go through the hassle of milling out a real AR lower to match the upper. Instead of just using a forged RA-Tech and saving myself alot of headache.

 

Anyway, rant over.

 

You also want to avoid so much cross-compatibility that government agencies get suspicious and start to take action against these.

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When I was the Product Manager for KWA, we have to be extremely careful with the design of the gun. Legal issue have a huge impact how a replica can be made. We have to consider the following...

 

1. Trademark, which include Brand name / Model name. Unlike oversea regions like Hong Kong, Taiwan and Japan. They don't always enforced Trade mark laws. However, selling a replica with actual branding / model name in US, Canada, UK and part of Europe can get you in legal trouble. This is why some airsoft companies will try to obtain licensing agreement to produce the replica with proper markings. Then again, even with a licence to produce. There are other safety / liability issue that are REQUIRE manufacturers to add Extra TEXT right on the gun. You'll see those commonly on Cybergun and Umarex / Elite Force products. Which is another subject to discuss.

 

2. Trade Dress. Similar to Trademark, but this address directly to the SHAPE and/or FEATURES of the gun. A Classic example is the Glock replica. You aren't going to find any US retailers selling a Glock like model nowadays. And Glock have filed multiple lawsuit against anyone who import, and sell any replica that resemblance the SHAPE of their Glock series gun. KWA had to changed their design/Shape and call it the ATP for this reason.

 

3. Safety and ATF. This mostly applied to product sold in US. BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) or short for ATF. Have very specific ruling on What is a Firearms and what is NOT a firearms. And they ruling is ABSOLUTE, any violation can be fine to jail time. Some of the replica that is sold in US, especially those Gas Blowback category are NOT ATF approved. Case in point the the KWA LM4 project that I was in charged with, the original design was done way back in Late 2009, The original gas rifle have the same EXACT dimension as the a real AR. The gun was already sold in Asia around 2010 label under KSC. The problem is, this gun can't be sold in US because the same dimension allows anyone to replace the trigger group and the airsoft lower receiver CAN INDEED fit a REAL upper receiver. That's a HUGE no no for ATF. KWA have to modify dimension THREE times in order to get approval from ATF. The gun finally released in US around early 2012. There are other guns that was BANNED on the ATF list. Like the WE M4 mentioned in previous post because it can be easily modified.

 

4. Airsoft parts vs. Real gun parts. As I have mentioned above that ATF have absolute ruling on a replica being a Firearms or not. This also affect how after market accessories are fitted into Airsoft gun. Obviously, most of us would love to fit real firearms accessories. However, airsoft manufacturer changes some design to be airsoft specific only to avoid ATF final ruling. For example, Thread pitch on upper receiver, some airsoft gun can't fit real rail unless you have a re-threading tool. Buffer tube dimension, some of them are either too small, or too large. Flash hider is CCW instead of CW just to name a new.

 

As for your specific question on Taurus PT99 c02 pistol vs. the real Chrome finish, The color or the finish usually have little or no bearing on manufacture decision. The honest truth is, manufacture will make whatever gun that yield the most profit. Color variation usually will increase production cost and affect profit margin so most manufacturer will make only the most popular color... which is BLACK.

 

Unless the gun is super popular. Like the Krytac Warsport LVOA with the Green finish. (Shameless plug here.)

Edited by Allizard

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