Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Also, on another point, I keep hearing about NiMHs losing charge fast in the cold but my sources keep telling me that they lose charge in higher temperatures, so you tell me. because theres so many sources saying that throwing your NiMH in a freezer will make it retain 90% of its charge after a month. So after after drinking the cool-aid for tbbs increasing muzzle velocity by tens of fps instead of 1s, some other bullshît about volume to barrel ratio like how 590s were better than 500s and some other stuff because the average human is very gullible. Why would I then want to believe that NiMHs are shît in cold weather as most of these weird airsoft tips are wrong?

 

Because cold does kill a Nimh batteries performance. Since winter is right around the corner, this is pretty easy to test. Go out and play on a sub-freezing day, ideal down in single digits. See how your battery performs. I played a game in February when temperatures were hovering right around 0 that day. People who used lipo batteries (and HPA for that matter) did not have performance issues. Those that were using Nimh (or NiCd) quickly found that there guns would not shoot. This wasn't limited to one or two people, but everyone playing that day. Those that had lipos guns' worked, those who had Nimh/NiCd did not.

 

Weather cold kills the charge (where you have to recharge the battery) or simply impedes the ability for the electrons to flow in the batteries chemistry (like water freezing) and bounces back when the pack warms up, I do not know as I have not tested. But regardless of the scinece behind it, the usable information is that a Nimh batteries performance tanks when the weather is in the freezing to sub freezing range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First:

M4s because everybody and their mothers and grandmothers have M4s.

It's a "standard" in airsoft.

it's not necessarily better than other platforms.

But since everyone has one, you can find everything for it in two minute google search.

May not be the case for....say, an STG44 replica.

 

 

Second:

Nickel based batteries are an older technology.

Between the Ni-based and Li-based, Li batteries are better in almost every aspect.

Biggest factor in cyclic life (how many charge-discharge cycles they can have) is quality of manufacture.

So....in terms of the airsoft market, both are shiet (compared to industry standards).

Which has "longer life"...depends on who made em (Japanese made tends to be best) using what chemistry (yes, there are thousands of chemical variants to Ni-MH and Li-Poly).

Ni batteries "feel" like they last longer because they are more forgiving of abuse.

Li- batteries, because of higher hazard risk, have built-in safety features that permanently kill the battery if you screw up once.

As for the temperature thing, both have similar operating temperatures, but Li-batteries have better discharge rates in the cold.

a healthy cell, Ni or Li, does not "lose" charge in mere hours. this happens over weeks, months, years.

 

Also....

TBBs do increase FPS by tens.

you have to get good TBBs though.

some shiet (usually cheap) TBBs are more like "choke-bore" barrels and I think they end up causing too much friction because of bad surface finish.

Then, yes, not much gain, if at all.

Good TBBs typically gives you ~30 FPS boost from stockbore (I'd guess ~6.08 and up, but don't have numbers).

 

[edit] can't use swear words...oops

Edited by Phil2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LiPos were made in the 1980s while NiMHs were from the 1970s.

 

"Ni batteries "feel" like they last longer because they are more forgiving of abuse."

"Li- batteries, because of higher hazard risk, have built-in safety features that permanently kill the battery if you screw up once. "

proving my point

 

"As for the temperature thing, both have similar operating temperatures, but Li-batteries have better discharge rates in the cold."

I don't like higher discharge rates because it wears on your gun but I wouldn't know how much of a better discharge rate you get

 

a healthy cell, Ni or Li, does not "lose" charge in mere hours. this happens over weeks, months, years.

Yeah, I read up on it and a healthy NiMH loses 10% each month or so.

 

TBBs do increase FPS by tens.

you have to get good TBBs though.

some shiet (usually cheap) TBBs are more like "choke-bore" barrels and I think they end up causing too much friction because of bad surface finish.

Then, yes, not much gain, if at all.

Good TBBs typically gives you ~30 FPS boost from stockbore (I'd guess ~6.08 and up, but don't have numbers).

 

Prove TBBs increase fps, do you have chrono footage of barrel swapping between two equal quality barrels, using identical bbs and you account for bore up and bore down things, hopup, construction material, length, barrel cleanliness and bb cleanliness? Also, your argument is one for quality as a stock barrels are usually cheap things so to get a good comparison you'd need an equally crappy tbb like a raptors barrel.

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LIPOS - Lithium Polymers did not exist in the 1980's...LION - Lithium ION, did but is a different type of battery.

 

NIMH went into full production mode in the mid-late 2000's. Early NIMH were not that good either in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sources?

 

Also, I forgot to address this:

"M4s because everybody and their mothers and grandmothers have M4s.

It's a "standard" in airsoft.

it's not necessarily better than other platforms.

But since everyone has one, you can find everything for it in two minute google search.

May not be the case for....say, an STG44 replica. "

If your talking about tech work why don't you learn to repair an aeg as its not that hard, diagnose it here and look for guides there. If your talking about accessories then thats not really an advantage for m4s as accessories are completely useless.

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not gonna devote a whole day to prove my point to someone on the internet, you're gonna have to take my word for it.

choice is yours....if you don't believe it, your loss.

 

source: am a professional engineer

 

[edit] also been airsofting for like 10-ish years.

Edited by Phil2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I win cause your lazy. Also, I don't take things based on faith, your gonna have to prove that your an engineer, prove that the m4 is better and prove that you've been airsofting for 10 years for me to believe you. Also thats an argument from authority, to dumb it down a bit because I don't think 99% of the population is familiar with this, your using your "experience" as proof that you are right and thats not placeholder for evidence.

People from the military generally don't know shît about firearms.

People who fly planes generally don't know shît about planes.

People who make weapons generally don't know shît about ballistics.

You probably aren't an exception. Also I don't need to prove any of these as these are negatives, they are stating that there is no information and to debunk that all you would need to provide is evidence, which I doubt the existence of.

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

check the airsoftgi map, isnt almost the entire airsoft industry based in the south of california or am I getting that wrong. Cause if I was right there would be alot of fields there, there are alot of fields in texas, tons in florida, louisiana and everything else

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBB's do indeed increase FPS, this is because it lets less air past the BB inside the barrel. This results in a slightly higher air pressure behind the BB compared to a wider bore barrel, and this results in a higher FPS. I have also witnessed what airborne101 describes, I live in Norway so obviously I go to airsoft games in low temperatures relatively often. Time and time again I can hear AEG's dying in the cold, and these are, as you may have guessed, powered by ni-mh's. People running li-po's or HPA have no issues with low temperatures. Li-po batteries are also affected by cold, but they usually have enough "headroom" to compensate for the performance loss.

 

I had originally decided to abandon this thread, but I guess that's a weakness I have, I hate all the ignorance and misinformation regarding batteries and related systems in airsoft.

Edited by Lefse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

use LiPo when it gets cold then. I never said tbbs don't increase fps, I actually never said they do either as thats one of those mysteries that I haven't seen be solved. I hear conflicting info on that stuff all the time, although a wider bore increases accuracy there are other factors in accuracy though and thats only one of them. But like I said, alot of fields are in warm weather and there shouldn't be a reason to use a LiPo in warm weather.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You can't point out the facts of "reality" to him Lefse...he just doesn't get it.

 

He is an old rare case of what he uses is "Bestests". There is no teaching him about "modern" non-low end airsoft.

Aaaaand projection :D

 

 

One reason to use a li-po in warm weather is higher performance, they offer higher performance than ni-mh's regardless of climate.

I don't think you read my posts. LiPos kill your gun faster than a NiMH, higher fire rates require less skill, do nothing for supporting fire, trigger response means nothing either as reaction time is never fast enough unless you expect it coming and tactics defeat anyone with the best reaction time. LiPos do not last as long as NiMHs and require more expensive equipment to maintain and charge. My contention is not performance, it is money spent and how much that stuff is worth. I can tell you that if you are in a fair fight, your tactics are bad and tactics ALWAYS beat skill or weapon performance.

 

Here:

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/

 

here the quote, up there is the source:

 

"I don't mean wear from voltage as that can be fixed with a mosfet or just greased contacts. I'm talking about wear from just round count and the speed of the cycling of the parts inside an aeg, I'm sorry but by the laws of physics obviously wouldn't extra force on the internals of a gun cause more wear and tear on it? And if so, then wouldn't a higher round count also wear it down even more simply from the rps? What about your AoE, wouldn't damage caused by errors be amplified from higher speeds from the action? And even if it really doesn't significantly wear out the internals of your gun more even shot per shot it wouldn't be worth the hundredth of a second boost in trigger response and heres why

So, the average reaction time of humans is .25 seconds, the average reaction time of gamers is .181 seconds. Lets say 50% of airsofters are gamers(with their hours ingame spread out of course.) The average reaction time of an airsofter should then be around .23275 seconds on average. So then why the hell would a .03 second variance EVER even matter? I know you would say something dumb like "what if you miss the first shot" Well, the thing is most airsofters don't react to a single shot as a threat so add .03 to that .23275 then start subtracting because those are shots. You have about 3 shots until a super rare skilled person with a reaction time of .14 can react and start dodging bbs which he apparently knows the exact location of.(We're already stretching the envelope as this person has probably a 10% chance to exist at your average local backwood airsoft field).

Now I know im not calculating the fps of guns but a 330 fps .25 shouldn't take too long to get to a target at 100ft. I'd say in the .15s but that's only if he knows your there and if your actually good you would know not to just pop out of a corner and start shooting wildly because this isn't counter strike. You'd rather want an ambush and him being alerted by the shot and not you trying to get the shot, which is going to be your first priority. So after he assesses your the threat AS SOON as he hears shooting, just instantly because hes a robot that perfectly knows whats a threat and whats not a threat 100% of the time. He would have a window of time of about .24 seconds only after the 3rd shot, now if its one shot he's most likely not going to react(this is from experience) and if he does he has no chance whatsoever at 100ft with a .25 going at 330 fps at dodging it even when knowing its coming.

We could talk about z tables and all. But that +/- variance is rather insignificant when compared to the time between shots and all this other stuff. Truth is that with training of any sort and and either a normal reaction time to start with or you learning easily. You can beat that tiny portion of players with an ever so slightly better reaction time than most people. But the thing is reaction time is quite irrelevant when it comes to airsoft simply because skill is 90% tactics so a tiny little variance like that isn't much in the grand scheme of things unless your neo or some shît and that hundredth of a damn second matters because your in the matrix."

Edited by airborne101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Running a li-po doesn't necessarily mean higher ROF, my AK running a high performance 11.1V li-po does a casual 21rps because I built it to do that ROF. Trigger response becomes relevant when you fire the second or third shot because the first shot missed. Li-po batteries are actually significantly cheaper than ni-mh batteries with equivalent perofrmance, and a basic balance charger can be bought as cheap as $10-15. You can buy a complete "li-po kit" for 20 bucks plus shipping, I would call that quite cost efficient. A li-po won't necessarily kill a stock AEG faster than a ni-mh, a moderate performance 7.4V li-po will do less damage than your typical 9.6V ni-mh, while being significantly cheaper and more compact and also more reliable.

 

I do agree that higher performance doesn't necessarily give you more kills, but it is more fun, and the main point of airsoft is to have fun, at least for me. :a-cheesy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 rps is a high RoF, try 10-15 rps. I don't think you read my quote properly. LiPos do not have "equivalent" performance with NiMHs unless your talking about a cheapo low quality 7.4 thats around 1000 MaH and 30c. You did not read my bit on why NiMHs can be overcharged and still work unlike LiPos, 10-15$ chargers are regarded as "Dumb" chargers and function identically to the chargers that come with your gun albiet charge faster. What is the shipping for this LiPo kit because if that charger is a dumb charger it isn't much better than a standard trickle charger. You are being scammed as guges referenced a good LiPo for 10 bucks. A 9.6 will do damage to your contacts if you do not have a mosfet installed, which is something anyone with a 120$+ gun should have. Therefore you go to an 8.4 if you don't have it, I just run with a low capacity 1100 MaH 8.4 even though I run with an m120 spring and it works as well as any high capacity battery that I've seen. With a mosfet the 7.4 will do more damage than a 9.6 if it grants a higher rps and wont be as reliable or durable in any of the other departments other than cold.

 

Sure you want to have fun but its less fun for others to get hosed down by some 12 year old with a polarstar or a 21 rps aeg. It's fun for yourself sure, but not for others as it isnt fair.

.

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Li-po's do indeed have equivalent performance ni-mh's, amps is amps, voltaqe is voltage, regardless of battery chemistry. Why would you overcharge your battery in the first place? A friend of mine nearly burnt down his house when he overcharged his ni-mh, so even those batteries aren't "idiot proof". The chargers we refer to stop charging when the battery is full in addition to balance the cell, so it's not a "dumb" charger, it's a basic balance charger. 21rps is close to average ROF for AEG's, there are stock AEG's with even higher ROF, so 21rps is by most not considered particularly high ROF. I also don't dump entire mags at opponents, I usually shoot short bursts at reasonable distance, and I also run a lower FPS in my higher ROF AEG's.

 

How am I being scammed? I buy Gens Ace li-po's for around 20 bucks from a local RC store, they are a bit more expensive than Turnigy, but offer superior quality and performance. The shipping for li-po batteries aren't any higher than what you'd pay for a ni-mh battery so the shipping fee isn't really relevant IMO. BTW, I'm 28 and I'm considered one of the most honest and considerate players at the local fields. I'm one of the guys that give advice to the younger players on how to get the most out of their guns and gear. I also apologize on the rare occasion that I hit an opponent in the throat or a similar sensitive spot, I usually aim for the torso though. Nobody has complained about my high ROF AEG's, and if they did I'd lower the ROF.

 

I guess this isn't a constructive debate anymore, as we clearly are two very different types of airsofters. I'm not going to waste any more time with this pointless debate or this forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I first got into airsoft I avoided the M4 like the plague because everyone and their cousin ran one, and I didn't feel like being "run of the mill". Now, several years later after I'm starting to get back into it again, I got a great deal on a G&G Combat Machine CM-16 DST and I can see what the craze was all about. I guess the thing that draws most people to it is customizability, like the AK in a sense. That, and LOTS of spare parts and upgrades are available from a lot of different manufacturers, so you won't have to go hunting down for spare parts if you need them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can you provide evidence that there are more parts for m4s? Do a search on a few sites for stuff and get some numbers here like price, quantity, quality, compatibility and what parts are needed, then we can debate, for now you have no evidence for your claims so I can dismiss them without evidence.

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tell you what. I'll prove black is white and you can go get yourself run over on a pedestrian crossing...stop swimming against the tide and get it into your head that there may be people out here who are older, wiser and actually know what they're talking about.

 

And as an aside... Stock SRC TCC M4 Which runs faster and with better trigger response on my two year old lipo 7.4v than it does on brand new, premium 8.4v NiMh packs. And an annoyed son who took YOUR advice on which batteries are better.

 

Get over yourself.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Proves a lower fire rate is better than a faster one."

 

That's not proof. It's just an opinion. Again.

 

You know, being wrong once in a while never hurt anyone. Insisting that you're always right has been the cause of more than just a few arguments on Internet forums. Several international conflicts spring to mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is what I said on this as I don't want to repeat myself:

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814154

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814187

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814215

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814229

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814248

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814258

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814365

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18814389

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18816181

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18816201

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/?do=findComment&comment=18816211

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/page-2?do=findComment&comment=18816219

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/page-2?do=findComment&comment=18816224

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/302601-good-aeg-rifle-for-beginner/page-2?do=findComment&comment=18816248

 

That was the debate, I refuted absolutely everything he said and it wasn't that hard. And if you're really this anal about people being right and saying that they are right, why don't you debate me then? I'm not that special, I have an iq of 108, I'm a regular person. I just debate very often and its my hobby. The trick is to only argue with the facts.

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You didn't refute. You disregarded and disagreed without at any point offering any evidence to support your argument/opinion . As opposed to Guges who backed up his assertions with empirical evidence. So there was no debate, just you insisting that you're right in the face of overwhelming evidence. Which as far as I'm concerned makes any opinion you offer absolutely worthless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ad hominem again, I could go talk to airborne101 to get ya a 7 day ban for language or we could have a civil discussion. Also I don't require evidence as I would just be listing pictures and things people already know. My contention is that the facts are there but nobody puts two and two together and public opinion is based in "the good guys use this gun in real life therefore it is good in airsoft". I state basic information, and if you can't understand the abstract of this discussion then you shouldn't participate in it. Also if you really want to go deeper into this we can talk about how occams razor is on my side and the monopoly of brands and then we can get into politics after that or we can just leave it at this.

 

Either one is pretty fun.

Edited by jroble95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...