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Hey everyone, I'm new here in the forums but I started airsofting about six years ago. I stopped for the past two because it can get pricey but now that I'm out of school and working a decent job, I figured now is the best time to get into it. I have a VFC HK416c and I'm planning to do a relatively high speed build. (I ain't goin near a dsg build anytime soon)

I would consider myself fairly advanced when it comes to working on aeg's as I've always been the go-to for my friends to fix or upgrade their guns including my own guns. I know my way around an AEG quite well and have spent countless hours researching and obsessing over this topic, however I am always looking for advice to continue learning and improving my skills as it's greatly appreciated!

I'll start off with what I have and plan to use as the base to install my new parts into.

-GB shell is the stock VFC shell it came with. I know those are fairly strong and it has 8mm steel bushings, not to mention I'm fairly proud of my radius(ing?) job.
-Motor is a Lonex Orange high torque which I'm assuming will be great for ~400 fps and high rof.
-Metal bearing spring guide, and stock cylinder from VFC.

Now the parts I plan on purchasing as follows;

-SHS 12.65:1 gears
-SHS pinion gear
-SHS lightweight 14t piston (with sorbo pads for aoe)
-Lonex Pom piston head
-Lonex aluminum cylinder head w/double o-rings
-Lonex Pom nozzle
-SHS nylon tappet plate
-Prommy m110
-SHS ARL
-Annnnd the cherry on top, a Gate Titan mosfet which I know have been proven to work on 50+rps dsg builds.

I chose SHS for a lot of parts because they aren't pricey and are very widely used and accepted for similar builds along with the Lonex components I've picked. (Hopefully I'm not missing anything in the list)

I feel confident in these parts, but I also feel like I've gravely over-looked something or that something in the list won't hold up to what I should expect.

Also running an 11.1 lipo at 20c and 1100 MAh which I assume I should get one with a higher MAh rating, any recommendations are welcome.

Again, any advice is greatly appreciated including parts that may cost a bit more but would be better in the long run, thank you!

 

Edit: Grammar, formatting

Edited by RenegadeFunNoodle

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Let's do this the other way around. What fps and rate of fire are you actually aiming for? Start there, and make the choice of battery depending on the space constraints and the list will sort itself out.

The Titan is a nice piece of kit, but it's a bit wasted on a straight high speed build. However if you are going to be shooting a lot of semi auto then the pre cocking gives instant trigger response, and the cycle completion function means no jamming, however fast you pull the trigger.

The Lonex A2 (Orange) is 15TPA. combined with the SHS 12:1 gears and 11.1v that's going to give you around 46rps, which just isn't gonna fly. 40rps on a SSG is doable but you'll break a lot of stuff getting there. 30rps is reasonable and will even be pretty reliable.

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The days of gutting for speed is a dated procedure.

 

Heck...I get 25rps on a STOCK G&P with just a Motor swap and its 398fps on the nuts.

 

This all on a 2S lipo.

 

Start at the 2:00 mark on this video...do you need more speed than that?

 

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Let's do this the other way around. What fps and rate of fire are you actually aiming for? Start there, and make the choice of battery depending on the space constraints and the list will sort itself out.

The Titan is a nice piece of kit, but it's a bit wasted on a straight high speed build. However if you are going to be shooting a lot of semi auto then the pre cocking gives instant trigger response, and the cycle completion function means no jamming, however fast you pull the trigger.

The Lonex A2 (Orange) is 15TPA. combined with the SHS 12:1 gears and 11.1v that's going to give you around 46rps, which just isn't gonna fly. 40rps on a SSG is doable but you'll break a lot of stuff getting there. 30rps is reasonable and will even be pretty reliable.

Okay this helps a lot. I'll start off by saying that rps is not my main goal. I was hoping to land somewhere between 30 and 40rps. I had a feeling the 12:1's would be a bit overkill. Fps, hopefully 380-400. If I wanted to keep ROF in that range what shhould I swap out? 13:1's instead of 12:1?

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The days of gutting for speed is a dated procedure.

 

Heck...I get 25rps on a STOCK G&P with just a Motor swap and its 398fps on the nuts.

 

This all on a 2S lipo.

 

Start at the 2:00 mark on this video...do you need more speed than that?

 

Pretty impressive! My vfc with an 11.1 lipo and 16:1's shot 26rps and I dunno, it just didn't feel fast enough (even though it's obviously plenty haha).

 

 

 

Lol, I've given up trying to convince people that 20rps is more than enough! Hopefully I can help get them somewhere close to what they think they 'need' without breaking to many expensive parts. ;)

It is way more than enough but I just want something ridiculous I can call my own from the ground up!

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If you're determined to use that motor, then 11.1v on stock 18:1 gears (actually 18.72:1) will give you around 31 rps, but with quite a bit of overspin, and seeing as the Lonex motors are already pretty hard on their brushes, you want to be keeping away from using active braking.

Or the Lonex Orange on 13:1 gears and 7.4v will deliver 28 rps, much less over spin, good trigger response. But running at those short of days the Lonex motors develop a lot of heat quickly, especially during rapid semi auto.

If you want to consider using a different motor, then a 16TPA motor will be a bit more suited to the rates of fire, but if you really want to achieve a reliable and efficient 30+ rps then the only real option is a 22TPA motor on 11.1v and siegetek 10.44 :1 gears.

 

Once your power system is capable of achieving the rate of fire, then you have to know how to make the rest of the gearbox survive.

Edited by Hangtight

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If you're determined to use that motor, then 11.1v on stock 18:1 gears (actually 18.72:1) will give you around 31 rps, but with quite a bit of overspin, and seeing as the Lonex motors are already pretty hard on their brushes, you want to be keeping away from using active braking.

Or the Lonex Orange on 13:1 gears and 7.4v will deliver 28 rps, much less over spin, good trigger response. But running at those short of days the Lonex motors develop a lot of heat quickly, especially during rapid semi auto.

If you want to consider using a different motor, then a 16TPA motor will be a bit more suited to the rates of fire, but if you really want to achieve a reliable and efficient 30+ rps then the only real option is a 22TPA motor on 11.1v and siegetek 10.44 :1 gears.

 

Once your power system is capable of achieving the rate of fire, then you have to know how to make the rest of the gearbox survive.

I had 16:1 gears with the lonex and an 11.1 and only reached about 26 rps, how do you figure 31rps with 18:1's? I know my wiring wasn't able to keep up too well being that it was a smaller gauge (and without a fet I fried the trigger contacts lol although that was foreseen) but I mean 31 on stock gears??? What am I missing?

 

I'd really like to keep a reliable 35 rps and don't mind swapping a motor, didn't know the lonex motors ran so hot, I've yet to figure that out and I guess I'll have to swap that out. Any 16TPA recommendations?

 

Back to my power system, I'm confident the Titan will be able to provide the power needed from the battery to the motor. So keeping with an m110, 13:1 gears, the lonex, and an 11.1, I'll be seeing what I'm looking for, around 35rps, no?

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You will need to run a very light piston for the M110 not to have pre-engagement at 35fps. Ideally, I would recommend a M120 and then short stroke down to your desired fps.

 

Switch the SHS 14 tooth piston to the SHS 15 tooth piston. It has a little bit better rack support which is very important in a metal tooth piston. You can remove the second tooth when correcting AOE and then swiss cheese it yourself.

 

You can use Hunterseeker's forumula to determine your ROF with different gear ratios, motors, and batteries. I regularly use it it predict my ROF and it has always been pretty accurate for me. Usually within 2rps or so.

ROF=(X*V)/(TPA*ratio)

 

This is based on the assumption that the motor has neodymium magnets, unlimited power is available (powerful lipo, negligible voltage drop), and implicitly then that spring rating will not significantly affect ROF. It also assumes a rather efficiently built gun.

 

V= battery's nominal voltage (assumed peak charge)

TPA= the number of winds on an armature of your neodymium magnet motor. If you don't know the TPA of your motor, you can use ~14 for high speed, 16 for ACM "torque" motors, and ~22 for slow really high torque motors.

Ratio= your ACTUAL (not nominal, count yourself and remember it includes the pinion) gear ratio

ROF= Rate Of Fire

X= the constant 809.5135 (because I like them, so you and your sigfigs can go play with someone else) For a somewhat less efficient gun, or a lame buffer tube battery, or anything else like that, this constant can be reduced. Users in those cases may find 675 to be a more accurate value for X.

 

 

 

SHS High Torque motors are 16TPA. The problem is that they are hit or miss on quality. Once batch is good, the next heat up like crazy. It's the ACM lottery.

 

Once you determine your ROF and you know your power output in Joules of the spring, you can solve for how much input power, and thus what battery, you need.

Time for some napkin math, thank you for providing your amperage draw actual. That makes this assessment easier. So you're running 18rps<AT>1.25J (assumed output matches spring rating) That is 22.5 watts output, times 5, is 112.5 watts input (estimated) divided by 7.4v is ~15 amps input. It would seem, therefore, you have either a source of mechanical drag or more likely your battery voltage is dropping (because your batt. is lame) and thus a larger proportion of your gun's wattage is coming from amperage rather than voltage. By my estimated numbers, my model predicts your voltage is dropping to about 5.6v under load. I could be totally full of #%$! though.
So from above...just simplified...
(RPS)*(Joules)=Watts
Suggested 5:1 input wattage ratio. So...it takes 5 times the watts put in to get what you get out.
(Output Watts)*5=Input Watts
(Input Watts)/Voltage=Amps
Example Problem:
Voltage: 11.1v
mAh: 2500
C: 50/100
TPA: 22
Efficiency: 800
Ratio: 13
FPS/Joule: 1.486 (400 fps on .2g)
Calculate RPS:
(800*11.1)/(22*13)=31
Calculate Draw:
31*1.486=46.066 Output [*5=230.33 Input]
230.33/11.1=20.75 Amps
Calculate Capacity: Note that Amps were converted into milliamps.
(60((.8*2500)/20750))(60*(31))=10756 Rounds in 5.78 minutes (Taking the battery to 80% life.)

 

 

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You will need to run a very light piston for the M110 not to have pre-engagement at 35fps. Ideally, I would recommend a M120 and then short stroke down to your desired fps.

 

Switch the SHS 14 tooth piston to the SHS 15 tooth piston. It has a little bit better rack support which is very important in a metal tooth piston. You can remove the second tooth when correcting AOE and then swiss cheese it yourself.

 

You can use Hunterseeker's forumula to determine your ROF with different gear ratios, motors, and batteries. I regularly use it it predict my ROF and it has always been pretty accurate for me. Usually within 2rps or so.

 

 

SHS High Torque motors are 16TPA. The problem is that they are hit or miss on quality. Once batch is good, the next heat up like crazy. It's the ACM lottery.

 

Once you determine your ROF and you know your power output in Joules of the spring, you can solve for how much input power, and thus what battery, you need.

 

Wow man this was incredibly helpful, I've never seen these before. Answers a lot of questions.

Edited by RenegadeFunNoodle

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The HSA formula agrees pretty well with my measured figures, and also with the way I estimate rate of fire, certainly for the range of gear ratios and motors I've got experience with.

At 11.1v a 15TPA motor will have a loaded speed of around 35000rpm. 16TPA will be approximately 32000rpm and 22TPA 22000rpm. Loaded speeds on 7.4v will be 2/3. This assumes that your battery, wiring, connectors and switch are capable of delivering the current required.

Actual gear ratios are not the same as what's stated. If you measure them by counting teeth they come out at: Stock G&P = 20.8:1, 18:1 (stock in most guns) = 18.72:1, SHS 16:1 = 17.28:1, SHS 13:1 = 13.65:1, SHS 13:1 with G&P bevel (much stronger) = 15.16:1.

To estimate your ROF divide the motor rpm by the gear ratio and then divide that answer by 60 to get round per second rather than rounds per minute.

I've got a Lonex A1 Supreme running on 7.4v and stock 18.72:1 gearing which does 22rps and a couple of 16TPA builds pushing 13.65:1 gears on 7.4v which do 24 and 25 rps. Theoretically it should be 27rps, which I have seen done but only with extensive (and expensive) measures to reduce internal friction, including getting internal parts titanium nitrate coated! I've built a 16TPA /13.65:1/11.1v SSG that did somewhere around 38rps but it got used twice before I took it apart and had the bits for something more sensible. It really wasn't worth the effort.

So if your 15TPA motor on 11.1V and 18:1 gears was only managing 26rps then there was probably mechanical drag and weaknesses in the power system holding it back. Mechanical drag is partly correct lubrication but 90% correct clearances and very careful component matching. Polished gearbox rails and a piston that runs completely smoothly without any slop. A perfect mesh between the piston rack and the sector gear (I always put together the cylinder, piston with no O ring and the correctly shimmed sector to check the sector pulls the piston back with no drag). Polished cylinder bore. Really careful gear shimming and correct motor height adjustment.

Then your power system needs good 16awg wiring and Deans connectors. A basic Mosfet will switch just as well and as efficiently as a Gate Titan. I solder short silicone leads direct to the motor and then use 4mm RC bullet connectors to connect to the motor leads. That way you get a rock solid, low resistance connection to the motor, but you can still disconnect it for maintenance. A 16TPA motor can have a start up load of up to 100A,and 24rps at 7.4v pulls around 18-19A, so your battery needs to be able to support that.

Making the rest of the internals survive high ROF is a case of ensuring the piston can complete its stroke before the sector gear comes around again. Lightening the piston will improve its acceleration, but don't immediately assume that means cutting a load of holes in it. You can loose 3g by ditching the bearing and replacing it with a light plastic spacer. Use a POM piston head rather than an aluminium one. Make sure the rack is epoxied in (not super glue). You can loose another 1.5-2g by Swiss cheesing it if you have to, but don't remove much material below the rails to keep the rack area strong, and leave the rails intact to avoid the risk of the piston snagging on the gearbox shell.

A strong spring will also help the piston complete its stroke fast. Up to around 32-33rps then a 120 with a moderately lightened piston will be safe. Up to 39-40 rps then an M130 with the lightened piston. This will take you over your fps limit so it will require taking teeth off the pickup side of the sector gear to reduce the stroke and bring the fps back down.

 

Still want to build a high speed AEG? ;)

Edited by Hangtight

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The HSA formula agrees pretty well with my measured figures, and also with the way I estimate rate of fire, certainly for the range of gear ratios and motors I've got experience with.

At 11.1v a 15TPA motor will have a loaded speed of around 35000rpm. 16TPA will be approximately 32000rpm and 22TPA 22000rpm. Loaded speeds on 7.4v will be 2/3. This assumes that your battery, wiring, connectors and switch are capable of delivering the current required.

Actual gear ratios are not the same as what's stated. If you measure them by counting teeth they come out at: Stock G&P = 20.8:1, 18:1 (stock in most guns) = 18.72:1, SHS 16:1 = 17.28:1, SHS 13:1 = 13.65:1, SHS 13:1 with G&P bevel (much stronger) = 15.16:1.

To estimate your ROF divide the motor rpm by the gear ratio and then divide that answer by 60 to get round per second rather than rounds per minute.

I've got a Lonex A1 Supreme running on 7.4v and stock 18.72:1 gearing which does 22rps and a couple of 16TPA builds pushing 13.65:1 gears on 7.4v which do 24 and 25 rps. Theoretically it should be 27rps, which I have seen done but only with extensive (and expensive) measures to reduce internal friction, including getting internal parts titanium nitrate coated! I've built a 16TPA /13.65:1/11.1v SSG that did somewhere around 38rps but it got used twice before I took it apart and had the bits for something more sensible. It really wasn't worth the effort.

So if your 15TPA motor on 11.1V and 18:1 gears was only managing 26rps then there was probably mechanical drag and weaknesses in the power system holding it back. Mechanical drag is partly correct lubrication but 90% correct clearances and very careful component matching. Polished gearbox rails and a piston that runs completely smoothly without any slop. A perfect mesh between the piston rack and the sector gear (I always put together the cylinder, piston with no O ring and the correctly shimmed sector to check the sector pulls the piston back with no drag). Polished cylinder bore. Really careful gear shimming and correct motor height adjustment.

Then your power system needs good 16awg wiring and Deans connectors. A basic Mosfet will switch just as well and as efficiently as a Gate Titan. I solder short silicone leads direct to the motor and then use 4mm RC bullet connectors to connect to the motor leads. That way you get a rock solid, low resistance connection to the motor, but you can still disconnect it for maintenance. A 16TPA motor can have a start up load of up to 100A,and 24rps at 7.4v pulls around 18-19A, so your battery needs to be able to support that.

Making the rest of the internals survive high ROF is a case of ensuring the piston can complete its stroke before the sector gear comes around again. Lightening the piston will improve its acceleration, but don't immediately assume that means cutting a load of holes in it. You can loose 3g by ditching the bearing and replacing it with a light plastic spacer. Use a POM piston head rather than an aluminium one. Make sure the rack is epoxied in (not super glue). You can loose another 1.5-2g by Swiss cheesing it if you have to, but don't remove much material below the rails to keep the rack area strong, and leave the rails intact to avoid the risk of the piston snagging on the gearbox shell.

A strong spring will also help the piston complete its stroke fast. Up to around 32-33rps then a 120 with a moderately lightened piston will be safe. Up to 39-40 rps then an M130 with the lightened piston. This will take you over your fps limit so it will require taking teeth off the pickup side of the sector gear to reduce the stroke and bring the fps back down.

 

Still want to build a high speed AEG? ;)

You are a true legend, Hangtight. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out with probably the millionth high-speed build around. Allow me to address your comment as best as I can.

 

I feel very confident I can perform 97% of the tasks required to pull this off and am more than ready for the challenge. My biggest fear is reliability and I know, I know- I shouldn't be expecting that on (especially) my first 'true' high speed build although I'll do anything I can to make it last.

 

I'm cool with the titan cause hell, why not? Check out them features yo! Never even thought something like that would exist years ago! I know the wires will be sufficient for the batteries and motor. I will definitely use your trick with bullet connectors, that's pure genius. Deans, already there batteries and FET.

 

My 16:1's were thrown in there for fun with a lame shim job, no AOE (destroyed my crap VFC piston too), and was on stock wiring which I believe was 18ga? Not to mention how gnarly the gearbox was, filled with grease and other junk. So yeah plenty of points I could've improved upon but I was happy with where it was knowing I wouldn't be airsofting much longer. (Long time ago...)

I plan on polishing everything, hooking up new Deans, shimming to the best of my abilities not to mention motor height of course, AOE, and swiss cheesing as necessary with the pom lonex piston head on top. I will definitely use your aforementioned techniques to get better results.

 

I did the math and with the 13.65:1 ratio on my battery, etc,etc, I had a result of anywhere between 36-44 rps considering how efficient my battery/wiring will be. Referencing the build you said you tore apart, that's my ultimate goal as insensible as it may be. :D I've planned out for an SHS 16 TPA motor and the stronger 15t shs piston which shouldn't be a challenge stroking the teeth and swiss cheesing.

 

Again I'm hoping for the build to last a while as I never planned on running around with a BB hose to be quite honest. If anything this could be more of a "trigger response build" if you could call it that. With everything said and done which I am totally prepared for, I just can't wrap my head around the battery stuff. I never quite understood the amp ratings on LiPo's with the C's and discharge rates and so on. I'm hoping my 20c 11.1 will be okay but I'm also not looking for my buttstock to light on fire anytime soon! On top of that, you're talking about changing springs... wouldn't I be able to stick with an m120 and call it a day? I'm sure it can't be all too heavy with a lightened piston and pom piston head.... right??

 

Tl;Dr: My battery isn't good enough I'm assuming. Can I keep the 11.1 or will I simply need one with the right c rating and higher MAh rating? Also, do I REALLY need that fast of a piston return rate.....? Stroking my sector gear and raising the spring strength on top of a lightened piston and head??

 

Edit: Couldn't I just remove a tooth or two from the front of the piston to lower fps?

Edited by RenegadeFunNoodle

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If you're going for a trigger response build, then 16TPA/11.1V/13.65:1 isn't the way to do it. I only built that because a support weapon with a stupid rate of fire seemed like a good idea at the time! (I'm older and wiser now ;)) Field limits in the UK are 350fps for full auto guns, and that took an M120 spring, light piston and four teeth off the sector gear to bring the fps back down to around 330-340. I did try it with a half rack piston with just the bearing removed (from memory that was around 21g) when I was experimenting, and that hit premature engagement.

Quick note on short stroking. Always take the teeth off the pick up side of the sector gear. If you take them off the release side of the sector gear, or the end of the piston rack you will mess up the release /feed timing.

Honestly if you want a really nice build for trigger response in semi auto and a reasonable rate of fire that'll last then I'll give you the parts list for my most recent build, because that's exactly what I was shooting for. I'll also justify each of the parts.

 

Gearbox shell: V2 G&P 8mm bearing. This shell is tough, well made and inexpensive. The stock bearings are excellent and more than up to the job of coping with M120 springs. If you get a complete box then the stock cylinder, cylinder head and air nozzle are also premium components. The cylinder has a good bore. The cylinder head is aluminium and seals well. The air nozzle is also aluminium and fitted with a single O ring. There's nothing wrong with the stock tappet plate either.

Gears: SHS 13:1. Inexpensive and get the job done.

Steel bearing spring guide. Use if you're taking the bearing out of the piston, but for this build you can leave it in and use the stock G&P plain one.

Piston: ICS POM piston and piston head. This is a very well designed and made component. The tooth form on the piston is excellent, and the material is the most durable I've come across. The head seals perfectly, the whole thing is a reasonable weight, and again it is excellent value for money.

Motor: 16TPA. SHS Hi torque will do the job, as well as Rocket Airsoft (Hi Torque) or ZCI (balanced 16TPA, the ZCI Hi Torque is 22TPA), but the best motor I've used is the ASG CNC 30k. This is well made, well balanced, smooth and powerful. It is also a perfect fit into A PTS EPG motor grip, which has enough space inside for the trick with the bullet connectors. At some point I'll take a pic of that so you can see what I mean.

Gate Titan: Pre cocking on semi, burst fire on full auto going to full auto if you keep the trigger down. No pre cocking so you can release the tension on the spring at the end of the day by firing a quick full auto burst.

Battery: I've got a crane stock that's large enough to fit a 7.4v 1400mah 30C/50C (continuous /burst) stick lipo in each tube, which are then connected together in parallel which should give a burst current of around 140. Alternatively I use a full A2 stock with a lipo brick that's 2200mah, again 30C continuous and 50C burst. RC stuff is generally cheaper and better quality when it comes to lipos.

This gives insane trigger response with a reset so fast you can't pull the trigger quick enough, and still does 24-25rps. If I'm being stealthy then either of the battery options will last all day, but if I being trigger happy (4000+ rounds in a day) then I change them out at lunchtime.

This is a low stress build on the motor and battery. Even spamming the trigger in semi barely gets the motor warm, and with the battery cutoff on the Titan you're in no danger of puffing up a lipo.

Edited by Hangtight

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If you're going for a trigger response build, then 16TPA/11.1V/13.65:1 isn't the way to do it. I only built that because a support weapon with a stupid rate of fire seemed like a good idea at the time! (I'm older and wiser now ;)) Field limits in the UK are 350fps for full auto guns, and that took an M120 spring, light piston and four teeth off the sector gear to bring the fps back down to around 330-340. I did try it with a half rack piston with just the bearing removed (from memory that was around 21g) when I was experimenting, and that hit premature engagement.

Quick note on short stroking. Always take the teeth off the pick up side of the sector gear. If you take them off the release side of the sector gear, or the end of the piston rack you will mess up the release /feed timing.

Honestly if you want a really nice build for trigger response in semi auto and a reasonable rate of fire that'll last then I'll give you the parts list for my most recent build, because that's exactly what I was shooting for. I'll also justify each of the parts.

 

Gearbox shell: V2 G&P 8mm bearing. This shell is tough, well made and inexpensive. The stock bearings are excellent and more than up to the job of coping with M120 springs. If you get a complete box then the stock cylinder, cylinder head and air nozzle are also premium components. The cylinder has a good bore. The cylinder head is aluminium and seals well. The air nozzle is also aluminium and fitted with a single O ring. There's nothing wrong with the stock tappet plate either.

Gears: SHS 13:1. Inexpensive and get the job done.

Steel bearing spring guide. Use if you're taking the bearing out of the piston, but for this build you can leave it in and use the stock G&P plain one.

Piston: ICS POM piston and piston head. This is a very well designed and made component. The tooth form on the piston is excellent, and the material is the most durable I've come across. The head seals perfectly, the whole thing is a reasonable weight, and again it is excellent value for money.

Motor: 16TPA. SHS Hi torque will do the job, as well as Rocket Airsoft (Hi Torque) or ZCI (balanced 16TPA, the ZCI Hi Torque is 22TPA), but the best motor I've used is the ASG CNC 30k. This is well made, well balanced, smooth and powerful. It is also a perfect fit into A PTS EPG motor grip, which has enough space inside for the trick with the bullet connectors. At some point I'll take a pic of that so you can see what I mean.

Gate Titan: Pre cocking on semi, burst fire on full auto going to full auto if you keep the trigger down. No pre cocking so you can release the tension on the spring at the end of the day by firing a quick full auto burst.

Battery: I've got a crane stock that's large enough to fit a 7.4v 1400mah 30C/50C (continuous /burst) stick lipo in each tube, which are then connected together in parallel which should give a burst current of around 140. Alternatively I use a full A2 stock with a lipo brick that's 2200mah, again 30C continuous and 50C burst. RC stuff is generally cheaper and better quality when it comes to lipos.

This gives insane trigger response with a reset so fast you can't pull the trigger quick enough, and still does 24-25rps. If I'm being stealthy then either of the battery options will last all day, but if I being trigger happy (4000+ rounds in a day) then I change them out at lunchtime.

This is a low stress build on the motor and battery. Even spamming the trigger in semi barely gets the motor warm, and with the battery cutoff on the Titan you're in no danger of puffing up a lipo.

Okay so the advice from your past experience doing what I was aiming for helps a lot... but from your parts list I have picked out many similar parts and what I'm picking up is that an 11.1 is out of the picture and a 7.4 with 30c/50c discharge would be perfect and result in better longevity of the gearbox? (I'm assuming that is so because of the huge discharge rate for trigger response yet slower ROF) If so, I'm all about that haha. Especially when that means my 11.1's would still yield stupid a ROF. Although I am quite partial to being able to shove a single 11.1 1200mah battery down my buffer tube and still use my CTR stock...

 

Also, what did you mean by a full A2 stock with the bigger battery? Is that in reference to the motor and simply a larger 7.4? On top of that, you're not running two 7.4's in parallel are you??

Edited by RenegadeFunNoodle

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Why doesn't anyone other than me just use faster motors?

 

That Video has a 45K motor in it...you guys are all hovering around only 18-20K

 

Pop in a 40K and knock the ratio down to 13:1 and you will be in the 33rps range with a 2S LiPO while maintaining 400fps....hmmm....I have all those parts lying around...I think I shall do that this long weekend.

Edited by Guges Mk3

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Perhaps it's personal preference, but I just like the way the 16TPA motors deliver their torque while still chooching at 30k rpm. Plus no potential issues with over spin. Don't forget I'm using M100 springs, but my DMR is M120 with the same power system, and with the pre cocking that feels and performs really well.

 

With the crane stock I run the two smaller lipos in parallel to get both the capacity and the ability to deliver high peak current. The A2 stock is the old style M16 stock which has enough room in it for a nice big 7.4v lipo with enough space left over for a snack.

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The torque isn't that bad on these new generation HS motors...while not at the same level of the Monster Torque motors initially at 90% of the torque but at 100% of the RPM rate...in most builds...its an easier ROF boost.

 

HT, is your motor 30K number at 2S or 3S, I think I may have asked this before...

Edited by Guges Mk3

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Why doesn't anyone other than me just use faster motors?

 

That Video has a 45K motor in it...you guys are all hovering around only 18-20K

 

Pop in a 40K and knock the ratio down to 13:1 and you will be in the 33rps range with a 2S LiPO while maintaining 400fps....hmmm....I have all those parts lying around...I think I shall do that this long weekend.

Because some of use are dirty speedsofters that crave extremely fast trigger response but don't wanna lug around a tank on our back. :tongue:

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If I get my shimming right then it comes in at 21500 on 7.4v under load. Convention seems to be to state the loaded rpm at 11.1v.

The high speed motors you're using don't seem to be readily available in the UK. The only 'speed' motor I currently have is a Lonex A1 Supreme, 14TPA and manages nearly 25k <AT> 7.4v. It doesn't quite manage a over spin double shot on a freshly charged battery, but it gets very close. But I can get an SHS/RA /ZCI 16TPA and a set of 13:1 gears for what the Lonex cost which gives the type of performance I like.

But just for giggles I'm putting together a DSG M4 pistol out of bits I genuinely had lying around. 16TPA / G&P gears (20.8:1, 9 tooth bevel) /11.1v, a no name 8 tooth DSG that turned up from somewhere and a car crash of other bits. I suspect your weekend build might be a bit more sophisticated!

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All right peeps, thank you all for the incredibly helpful advice!! Also good luck Guges and Hangtight, sounds like a good weekend to me.

After a short absence I have caved and purchased my parts. Only alterations to the original list are 13.65:1 SHS gears instead of 12:1's, a 7.4v 30c/50c LiPo (which was fit with my math and Hangtight's excellent recommendation), and staying with my Lonex A2 although I've read its apparently both a 15TPA and a 16TPA armature.

-_____-

 

Anyway, I'll be updating this when parts arrive in a few days and use it to keep track of my build if anyone is interested in the very first high-speed/trigger response build known to the world of AEG's. Wish me luck.

Edited by RenegadeFunNoodle

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All right guys, got all of my parts in, got the dirty work like aoe and shimming done, everything fits like a charm and I was pumped to get it shooting tonight until I got to the Gate Titan.

 

I got it all set up and just as I was going to test the sensors, the Tactical Programing Card continues to blink when I connect the Titan. The manual says this mean the Titan is not connected. Same thing happens with the Titan on the Control Station software.

 

Worst part is their e-mail customer support supposedly sucks and the only time their Support phone lines are open is about midnight to 7am my time so that's going to be a pain. This 150 dollar brick in my gun is really getting the best of me as I can't find ANYTHING online. What the hell.

 

I would really appreciate any help with the Titan if any of you peeps have experience with it.

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Thanks for checkin in hangtight. It was blue but I cleaned every last contact and let it sit over night and all is good now.

 

Got everything together and set today, process was easier than I was expecting but I'm glad to have my HK in one piece again.

I don't have my 7.4v lipos in yet so I used 11.1's and holy cow. Only 35 RPS but I'm starting to think it's a total overkill... My mags definitely can't keep up with it so I'll have to see what works best.

 

On the other end, it only chrono's at 230 fps... It was shooting 350 before I took it apart so I'm assuming compression was okay in the hop-up before but maybe something changed? I know compression in the GB is good because I lubed it all up and keeping my finger over the air nozzle will make the piston stay back until I release...also using an m120... Guess more parts comin' soon!

 

Last but not least, HangTight I took your advice about using an ASG 30k because my local shop had one and I figured it'd be a good investment and it's fantastic but it gets incredibly hot very fast although with 7.4's it should be fine. oh and not to mention the newly found grey dust coating it and the inside of my grip now haha.. Destroyed the shaft on my A2 trying to replace the pinion so that's out of the picture.

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If you're clocking 35 rps on 11.1v and the motor is getting hot quickly that would suggest that the motor is working harder than it has to. It should be drawing maybe 22A. One of those cheap RC power meters is a really useful tool when you're doing builds.

If you've got good compression at the cylinder, have you checked the hop air seal? Do you know how to check it with a small piece of paper?

Finding mags that'll keep up with high rates of fire can be a pain. Flash mags work for me.

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So I changed my bucking, taped it off with teflon, and yeah I tested it and it's blowing air out the bottom. Same FPS after that little mod... I have no idea what could be causing it to leak out that way because it's the same air nozzle I had stock? Also I'll have to use a multimeter tomorrow to check that amp draw. If it's working too hard what could be the cause? I have it shimmed so all the gears spin pretty damn freely and the piston sides are greased up... I dunno what else could be the cause?

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I keep finding new ways for gearboxes to create resistance. My latest one was the tooth form on the plastic part of the rack on an SHS piston not meshing well with a sector gear. I check that the sector pulls the piston back cleanly as a matter of course, but this one had me foxed for about half an hour. I just couldn't see what was causing the resistance. The other common cause of resistance is incorrect motor height and an over tight mesh with the bevel gear. If your grip hasn't been matched to the receiver then you get a nice adjustment with it on the gearbox, but if it's hitting the receiver it can pull stuff out of alignment. I set the mesh as the first stage in shimming then I don't touch the motor height again apart from a little fine tuning with a power meter right at the end. If I have to put more than a turn of adjustment in I did something wrong.

Take the inner barrel out and put the receiver back together. With the bolt cover open squint down the outer barrel and check if the air nozzle is centred with the bore of the outer barrel. If you're getting an air leak and having feeding issues then that's a possibility.

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I'm starting to run out of ideas. Even with my examining and time put into these problems, the solutions still elude me....

 

GB compression is perfect and the air nozzle extends just fine (although it doesn't seem to touch the bucking...then again I don't think it ever did in the first place) and feeds well now but sill 230 fps. NO idea. I teflon taped the whole bucking but air is definitely coming out of the mag feed. I'm confused because this is with the same air nozzle, tappet plate, and hop-up unit that came stock on the gun....I'm getting a new bucking and unit soon hopefully that will solve the issue. Maybe a slightly longer nozzle and sanding the tappet might work instead?

 

On the other hand, my motor is using an average of 46 amps on semi and 42 on auto with a supposed peak of 100 amps. Just peachy if you ask me. I checked everything for resistance of which there was none, and my motor height is perfect with the bevel and I know it's sitting straight in the grip. I'm completely lost on this one too. What else could be causing such an incredible load on the motor? It's a torque-y motor and I'm only running an m120 with the 13:1's ....there's no way it should require so much power.

 

pls help, my research leads me nowhere at this point

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The air nozzle needs to push onto the packing or you'll never get an air seal. Either something is stopping the hop being pushed back onto the gearbox by its little spring, or something is stopping the tappet plate moving all the way forward. This could be something at the front of the gearbox or the fin on the tappet plate hanging up on the sector gear shaft. If the spindle

on the new gears is larger diameter than the originals this is a possibility.

You have a source of resistance in the gearbox somewhere if you're pulling that current! What type of meter and connection are you using?

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So when reassembling my gearbox, I looked at every possible reason I could assume that was keeping the air nozzle from reaching it's point but the thing is everything that affects the nozzle is stock. The parts I am referring to are the tappet plate, the sector delay chip, the nozzle, and hop-up unit which is why I am so lost. I checked the articulation of the tappet around the sector delay chip and gear by hand. The tappet moves from the very farthest forward position to the farthest back it could possibly sit as the gear turns.

 

The motor, I have no idea, it just doesn't make any sense. I can turn the gears by hand with ease from the outside of the shell with the GB closed and only the tappet and spring, piston and cylinder, and all three gears in place...everything moves smoothly. The SHS tappet was creating a huge amount of resistance but the stock one does not which is what I am using now. The grip is the stock HK416 VFc grip and does not rest against the body of the gun which lets me safely assume the motor/pinion is sitting exactly where I want it against the bevel (because I shimmed from bevel checking with the half-shell/grip method and the full shell and grip method.)

 

I was going to use a regular multimeter but mine only works to 10 amps and the closest hobby shop is an hour away to get one of the in-line RC readers.

Luckily, the Titan actually tells yout the average amp draw in semi and auto as well as the peak. Thats where I got the 46 amps in semi and peak 100 amps.

 

I am so confused man.... so confused.....

 

 

Update: perfect hop up seal led to 50fps increase lol.... 280 now. Will re-check piston-cylinder-cylinder head-nozzle etc etc seal

Edited by RenegadeFunNoodle

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Well it must be the gearbox combo with the gears because any less and there's a ridiculous amount of play. the other end of the gear needed a lot more than that to hold it in place. I figured it was overkill but at the same time it should be held in place, no? If I go any lower with the bevel shim, again, it will be too far away and have too much play. Even through all that the gear spins freely with with little to no resistance. This whole charade is killing me

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A few tips I can give based on my own experience:

 

The bevel gear should be shimmed a bit looser than the other gears to compensate for motor height adjustment.

 

I've forgotten the spring that pushes the hopup unit back against the GB and been baffled by the same reoccurring fps leak. If your compression parts within the gb are solid when you test their air seal by themself, and your barrel assy. doesn't leak when you cover both ends and blow into it, then it's your mating between the gearbox and HU.

 

That was the case with my build.

King Arms receiver base, then moved to G&P aluminum still no better

Lonex GB

Prowin, then BD prowin clone, then Madbull ultimate HU. No luck with any

 

I was getting major mating issues with the above parts. they are all top of the line but just don't happen to mesh well together.

 

 

My solution was to get a GB shell with an integrated HU. Which solved my issue (;

 

Edit: so well in fact that my flat hopped bucking was being pulled through my barrel window due to the friction with the BB. It sounded like my piston was PMEing but stopped when the barrel group was reset.

Only solution was a harder bucking like a Madbull blue or Prommy purple. That was one of the weirdest problems I've diagnosed. Eliminating one problem can only lead to another one arising. AEGs are actually still fairly new to the market so there's still much more to learn about them. That's what makes it fun!

Edited by Sith

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