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OutlawAirsoft

Best Hop-up

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I am looking to upgrade my ICS AK74 hop-up unit. I am looking for something geared specifically towards Rhop, as I am also going to get a Prometheus 6.03mm x 509mm inner barrel, possibly with the Rhop patch pre-installed. I have searched Evike, Redwolf Airsoft, Amazon and Ebay (the last two I don't usually trust for qualityairsoft parts), but to no avail. Are there any specific units I should get/avoid? Ultimately I am looking for maximum consistancy and range. Any Ideas? Help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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Any reason why you want a barrel that long?

You do realize with R-HOP you lose ammo flexibility, right?  

Now if you want 93% of RHOP performance, yet have ammo flexibility and not needing a 509mm barrel.  You can just put on a MR AEG packing at 50 degree durometer, shoot .28g medium polish bbs on your stock barrel and you can range out to 90 yards with a 400fps AEG. 

Edited by Guges Mk3

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17 hours ago, OutlawAirsoft said:

The stock barrel on my ICS AK74 is 509mm. What do you mean: "MR AEG packing at 50 degree durometer"? Is that a specific product?

Is that barrel running through the Hider?  Most end at the outer barrel and thus AK's average 455mm.

Yes sir, the latest and the greatest from Maple Leaf for R-Hop type performance with slip-on simplicity.  Came out last Feb in Asia and with the right barrel...it has pushed long range consistency quite well.

 

Edited by Guges Mk3

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No, the barrel does not go through the flash hider. I made the mistake of trusting the description where I got it, and not measuring it. A thorough measurement shows that sure enough, it is 455mm. Darn you, Evike! Good thing I didn't purchase any replacement barrel.

Anyway, do you know where I can get this Maple Leaf R-Hop-like product? I googled "maple leaf airsoft hop-up" and only came up with what I assume are older versions. Is it true that just changing your bucking/packing can so dramatically improve your range? Does the nub need any changing/adjusting? And if I did find it, what price range am I looking at?

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MR Hop-Up rubbers can be found at Airsoft Atlanta and on eBay being sold by a guy that helps the little fellows out named Gugesmk3.

You can get a Packing and Nub for 22.00 shipped.  You may have to enlarge the window to accommodate the better packing/Rubber though.  because it is R-Hop like in performance and not like the traditional legacy type.

If you use a MR and a ML Omega nub hollow or solid.  It works far better than a MR and a traditional round nub.

You can ask the Refugees of ASF that went to Airsoft Society when ASF went down 2.5 years ago and never came back.  Many have used the ML packings/rubbers and nubs to effect that is better than the legacy system without the hassles of an actual R-Hop.

Here is developing thread about the latest marketing shenanigans and how the packings look on the inside.

https://www.airsoftsociety.com/threads/maple-leaf-packing-akica-bucking-monster-variants-macaron.160667/#post-1815801

Edited by Guges Mk3

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Thanks, I found the product on eBay. I just need the "MR 50" and the "Omega Nub Hollow", right?

I also noticed some rather disappointing FPS issues with the same AK. The internals consist of:

SHS Metal Toothed Piston (swiss cheesed),

SHS Double O-ring Cylinder Head,

Crossman Tappet Plate,

Lonex A2 High Torque Motor,

Maddog M140 Spring (reported to give me 459 FPS),

SHS Metal Spring Guide,

Maxx Aluminum Double O-ring Piston Head

**The Maxx Piston Head was a bit of a mistake, good quality but heavy and with the unnecessary ball-bearings.**

The issue is that even with all these upgrade parts, I can't seem to get more than 270 - 300 FPS (w/ .25g BBs). 

I don't know what Maddog springs are (hard, semi-hard, etc.), but with this result I suspect that they are soft. I'm not sure of the FPS immediately after installing the new spring (since I just got a chronograph), but I suspect it hasn't changed much. The Maddog spring is pretty easy to compress into the gearbox, maybe even easier than the stock spring (M130?). I did disassemble the gun and check the compression, and was not impressed. It was terrible. After checking the piston head I adjusted the O-ring (enlarged it) and reassembled the gun. If anything, the FPS dropped! 

Do you have any idea why I can't get more than 300 FPS with these internals?

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Don't know who the heck is "Maddog", could they have put the wrong spring in the wrong bag.

That happens more often than not for these "off" brands.

You don't need a double bearing in the mechbox.  Heck, you don't even need bearings.  Bearings in the mechbox is a throw back to a design mistake with SystemA springs.

 

How long is your stock barrel, have you tried the magwell tissue test?

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I will dismantle my gearbox and see what type of spring is actually in there. I built a spring measuring tool based on this site: https://www.airsoftguns-europe.com/how-to-correctly-measure-the-real-stiffness-of-airsoft-springs I don't know what to think of it, but it seems accurate. 

I also know about the bearing issue. I actually removed the bearings from the piston head to lighten it up, and could go back to a stock spring guide, but don't see the need. I reason I got a bearing piston head was because it was difficult to find a good-quality one without bearings. Do you have a recommendation?

I will also get a true m140 spring (probably SystemA) and the hop-up system you recommended. About that, should I get the "MR 50" and the "Omega Nub Hollow"? 

Finally, what is the "magwell tissue test"? I feel like I might know it under a different name. My barrel is 455mm.

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Do NOT buy SystemA springs,  Curious...why would you want to buy that spring?

Their springs is the cause of the many poor designs that are still in effect today and by their continued existence and the playing public not knowing better says one thing...market is still fruitful for selling junk at high prices.

I get my piston heads from Asia where many models are available without bearings.  In the US...not so much because "distribution" is ignorant of the facts on how systems works and thus they continue the propagation of bad items in US sales channels.

There is no other name for a Magwell tissue test.  This has been a diagnostic method since the 20th century.  You literally put tissue in the magwell loading port.

Power up your AEG.  Unload it, put on eye protection, invert your AEG put a piece of tissue over the loading port.  Fire in SA.  If the tissue flies off the loading port you had bad timing and the nozzle isn't delivering the pressure wave down the barrel.  This is all dependent on how far it flies.

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I did not have a specific reason for buying SystemA springs, so do you have a better option? I probably won't get an M140 spring anyway, due to various field regulations and the extra strain it would put on my gearbox. 

Where could I get a good quality piston head without ball bearings? I have looked and can not find a good source.

Also I apologize for being so ignorant. I should have guessed what the magwell tissue test was, as it is pretty simple. But thanks for explaining it to me.

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Get short hard spring with regular coil pitch.

PDI is top tier,

Prometheus while is an IP spring, it's a hard spring and it's Japanese.  SystemA is also "Japanese", but its a SOFT spring.

Guarder and Creation are next tier out of Taiwan and Hong Kong.

I wouldn't use any rebrand spring, ie.  Matrix, Valken, Lancer Tactical...plus there are lots of rebrands of SHS springs.  While they are good, they can also be bad.  This is due to Chinese batch manufacturing.

Edited by Guges Mk3

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PDI 150% is not near 400fps.  That is a 370FPS spring.  You want a PDI 170%

 

Also if your lonex motor is over 50.00 your paying way too much for a middle of the road motor.  You can get better quality and performance for the same price or comparable performance for less.

Edited by Guges Mk3

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I saw an online chart that showed the various well-known spring types and their respective FPS values, and a PDI 150% was 395 FPS. I think this is it:

AEG_Spring%20Chart.jpg

 

Sorry for the monstrous size. It could be inaccurate, but it seems pretty well researched. Would you recommend a 170%?

Anyway, I paid $52 for the motor, I think.

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That is an old chart and it is incorrect in many of it's data sets, it is dated 2004

He has soft springs on there that are not settled yet.  Thus that is why his SystemA M100 is hitting 365fps.  It takes 3 months for a SystemA to settle to it's "rated" speed.

There is NO Way a PDI 130 is 3 fps lower than a PDI140...and a 150 is 40 higher than a 140.

At Savage Garden III (2003) my PDI140 chronon'd in at 344fps on the official field chrono.  His double bearing setup is messing up his numbers.

Which is the biggest culprit that his data set being so wrong.  He double bearing system.  All spring are made for a "no bearing" system back then..

Thus with irregular pitch units and such...the speeds are going to be far higher than they should be.

Another case of bad info being used as the Gospel.

 

 

Edited by Guges Mk3

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I wondered whether the info was outdated. And I also suspect he just popped a spring in long enough to chrono it and didn't let it settle. I didn't even think about the double-bearing system, but that makes sense. At least he documented everything well.

Is there a more accurate chart I can use to roughly calculate different FPS's springs will give me?

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Nope.

Not one that I would pass around.  And you need to look at it as a big picture item and not a single part that will affect your speeds.

A general rule of thumb works in this manner based on 30 years of Airsoft knowledge.

Spring Quality, best to worst:

Japanese

Czech/Hong Kong - Custom, batch springs

Taiwan

China

Then is the spring Hard or Soft?

Then is is irregular or linear pitch?

M is meters per second on .20g bbs

S/SP is meters per second on .25g bbs

% is a ratio over 250fps, +22fps with .20 per 10%.  Thus a PDI120 - ~294fps, PDI130 316fps...etc. 

Additional factors like barrel length, cylinders and OB components affect the numbers also.

If you chrono with .20g bbs, each .01g change in bb weight drops fps by roughly 10fps in a static AEG.  So...if your AEG shoots 398fps with .20g, you will be at ~348 with .25g and ~328 with .28g.

That is why major events chrono with their bbs and mags.

So if you get a M120 Spring and you barrel is matched to the cylinder you should get 400fps.  This is true for:

375mm with Type 2

455mm with Type 1

509mm with Type 0

etc...

Thus true AEG tuning is an "art" and not so much like a video game gun where you snap in parts for a "programmed" upgrade and you need to know your parts.

Put in a SystemA M120 with a double bearing (good luck snapping up that mechbox without a third hand or the not knowing the spring guide trick) You will shoot 450 if your mechbox turns over.  Then 2-3 month with proper FA compression...you will be down to 400fps.  But oh the unnecessary stress on the mechbox...and in cold temps...mechboxes exploded.

 

 

 

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